Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth

[Kev]

Bilbo, I've given up arguing any of your other points (no not because of the infallible logic, just because its futile), however one thing you said bothered me & simply isn't true. You said Pac would be the first ATG outside of America which is bollocks. Roberto Duran, Eder Jofre, Carlos Monzon, Alexis Arguello & Jimmy Wilde are all proof that is just not true & that's without mentioning any of the great Mexicans. The guy is amazing, but he's not the first from outside the US to be so.

I specifically said the CONTINENT of America Jazmerkin. If you are going to critique my posts then at least try and read them properly.

So presuming you've gone back and seen that yes I did indeed say CONTINENT of America, are you still going to disagree?

Who are the all time top 20 greats who arn't from the CONTINENT of America?

[Kev]

To save you the time here's the exact sentence copied and pasted

Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.

So what part of that are you disagreeing with exactly?

[JazMerkin]

To save you the time here's the exact sentence copied and pasted

Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.

So what part of that are you disagreeing with exactly?

Well, as you're getting pissy over the exact wording then you didn't say Top 20 ATG, in which case Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaosai Galaxy, Marcel Cerdan, Fighting Harad all qualify. I also read it quickly & just read America, in which case I retract some of those fighters, but the ones above are still valid.

[Kev]

To save you the time here's the exact sentence copied and pasted

Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.

So what part of that are you disagreeing with exactly?

Well, as you're getting pissy over the exact wording then you didn't say Top 20 ATG, in which case Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaosai Galaxy, Marcel Cerdan, Fighting Harad all qualify. I also read it quickly & just read America, in which case I retract some of those fighters, but the ones above are still valid.

So if Manny beat Cotto you'd still have Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaisai Galaxt, Marcel Cerden and Fighting Harad on the same level as him?

For starters Manny is higher on the all time p4p than virtually all of them right now, if he beat Cotto, even at 145 he's knocking on the door of the top 10 of all time.

You really want to argue this?

[JazMerkin]

To save you the time here's the exact sentence copied and pasted

Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.

So what part of that are you disagreeing with exactly?

Well, as you're getting pissy over the exact wording then you didn't say Top 20 ATG, in which case Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaosai Galaxy, Marcel Cerdan, Fighting Harad all qualify. I also read it quickly & just read America, in which case I retract some of those fighters, but the ones above are still valid.

So if Manny beat Cotto you'd still have Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaisai Galaxt, Marcel Cerden and Fighting Harad on the same level as him?

For starters Manny is higher on the all time p4p than virtually all of them right now, if he beat Cotto, even at 145 he's knocking on the door of the top 10 of all time.

You really want to argue this?

Read my earlier post, where I said exactly that I rate Pacquiao higher than any of those guys, however that doesn't mean that they are not also ATGs. Try reading

What I was arguing was that they are ATGs, and in the case of Harada & also Dick Tiger they are in some people's all time Top 20s. Tiger in his time was actually a similar level of superstar as Pacquiao is now as hard as that might be to believe. I think if Pacquiao beats Cotto he's probably in my Top 20 of all-time, not sure he's in the Top 10 for me, there's too many great fighters for him to jump there yet. If he then beat Floyd though, he probably would jump there

[Kev]

Well, as you're getting pissy over the exact wording then you didn't say Top 20 ATG, in which case Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaosai Galaxy, Marcel Cerdan, Fighting Harad all qualify. I also read it quickly & just read America, in which case I retract some of those fighters, but the ones above are still valid.

So if Manny beat Cotto you'd still have Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaisai Galaxt, Marcel Cerden and Fighting Harad on the same level as him?

For starters Manny is higher on the all time p4p than virtually all of them right now, if he beat Cotto, even at 145 he's knocking on the door of the top 10 of all time.

You really want to argue this?

Read my earlier post, where I said exactly that I rate Pacquiao higher than any of those guys, however that doesn't mean that they are not also ATGs. Try reading

What I was arguing was that they are ATGs, and in the case of Harada & also Dick Tiger they are in some people's all time Top 20s. Tiger in his time was actually a similar level of superstar as Pacquiao is now as hard as that might be to believe. I think if Pacquiao beats Cotto he's probably in my Top 20 of all-time, not sure he's in the Top 10 for me, there's too many great fighters for him to jump there yet. If he then beat Floyd though, he probably would jump there

Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.

Ok please read my sentence back very slowly, out loud if it helps and then tell me specifically what part you are in disagreement with?

We can quibble over the definition of alltime great if you really want but can you see that the gist of what I am saying is absolutely correct.

Note the terms superstar and for a 'very long time' guys like Ricardo Lopez, Jimmy Wilde and Fighting Harad clearly do not come into those descriptions unless you think Lopez was a superstar and the others were not a very long time ago.

So now, outside of the CONTINENT of America how many RECENT SUPERSTAR ALLTIME greats have there been?

I think I am entirely right in saying that Manny has the CHANCE to go on to become the first ALL TIME GREAT not from the CONTINENT of America for a VERY LONG TIME.

If you are still struggling afterwards I suggest you see Miles who might be able to teach you to read, I'm sure his prices are reasonable

[Kev]

Just for fun lets name a few recent all time greats.

Right now? Only Roy Jones, B Hop and Floyd Mayweather would make the list among current fighters.

In recent times, Pernell Whittaker, J C Chavez.

Then you have to go back to Duran, Leonard, Hagler and Hearns.

Guys like Proyor and Arguello.

Maybe I've missed a couple but I can't think of any from the outside of the Americas that would measure up to the guys I've just mentioned.

But Pac yet might, so you see why I said he has the chance to become the first all time great outside of the Continent of America for a very long time?

Outside of Lennox Lewis and Calzaghe I can't think of a single other fighter that could rival the legacies of the guys above and I highly doubt many on here at all would rate either of them as highly as the guys above.

[generalbulldog]

Hopkins coming down to 158 at age 39 against Oscar and being a massively big body Middleweight is considered to be an easy thing to do, but Cotto at 29 years old and in his physical prime years coming in at 144 or 145 is considered to be weight draining? That doesn't sound right. That's inconsistent logic.

[Kev]

Hopkins coming down to 158 at age 39 against Oscar and being a massively big body Middleweight is considered to be an easy thing to do, but Cotto at 29 years old and in his physical prime years coming in at 144 or 145 is considered to be weight draining? That doesn't sound right. That's inconsistent logic.

Nope but it is the logic of Saddo's I'm afraid.

Floyd, only two fights removed from fighting at junior middleweight and after a lengthy retirement can move down to 143 lbs without difficulty as well.

Weight draining typically affects only Manny Pacquaio opponents.

Surely this is not self evident to you? You see the 5 ft 8 inch Floyd is so much smaller naturally than the 5 ft 7 inch Cotto and that's why he moved to welterweight over a year before Miguel did.

It's also interesting to note that Cotto weighed in at only 138 lbs against Malignaggi so a Manny fight at 145 still gives him a full seven pounds to play with. And lets not forget he only weighed in at 146 against Clottey.

But this pound is everything

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Hopkins coming down to 158 at age 39 against Oscar and being a massively big body Middleweight is considered to be an easy thing to do, but Cotto at 29 years old and in his physical prime years coming in at 144 or 145 is considered to be weight draining? That doesn't sound right. That's inconsistent logic.

I said he was making 160 easy and the fact that he made 158 at 39 supports this. I admit the word easy is an understatement as only a man like Hopkins could make it easy due to his life style... But that's Hopkins. Everyone is different. Its no contardiction to say, for example, that Vargas couldn't get down to 154.

Its all down to the individual. Cotto was struggling at 140 and has thrived at 146.

Back to Hopkins. Also the MANOR in which Hopkins went about moving up to Light Heavyweight strongly suggests that his body was fine at 160. He looked fine in his fights against Taylor.