Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth

[Kev]

Manny doesn't give a tuppeny f*** about the WBO welterweight title he wants the prestige of beating the eliter juniorwelter/welter Miguel Cotto.

Both are P4P stars, they are NOT soley single division stars.

The weight class isn't important.

It doesn't taint the purity of the sport in any way. Having Juan Urango as a light welter world champ because Paulie Malignaggi wouldn't pay enough sanctioning fees to these greedy organistations is what taints the sport.

Manny Pacqauio is both bigger and better for the sport than the WBO welterweight strap.

No fan in the world cares about the history or heritage of that belt or any other.

When you watch a fight you arn't watching to see how the history of the WBO belt is going to unfurl they may as well be fighting for marbles or cream eggs, it just doesn't matter.

Manny vs Cotto is one of the biggest and best fights that can be made in our sport, from both a commercial and entertainment point of view, (to say nothing of legacy for both fighters) and anybody who would rather this didn't happen than to see the purity of the WBO belt heritage tarnished is just a complete idiot.

I admire your ability to take what someone says and make those comments seem as though they are in a totally different context….

I have never once said that Catchweights are detrimental to the sport of boxing because they tarnish the purity of a belt. No one anti-Cathcweight on this board has even mentioned Belts as a factor in their argument. I find you guilty of Fabrication Bilbo.

My reference to detriment comes purely out the notion that Cathweight is (as I said before) in essence, a demand. These demands have away of filtering through out a sport. Hence it’s not the purity of Alphabet titles that is at stake… It’s the maturing disregard for weight classes themselves.





Miguel can fight at 140 or 147, again he doesn't exist soley in any single division he is a p4p star.


Bullshit, Cotto is NOW soely a Welterweight. For example, who do you think Cotto would rather of fought. Hatton, or Margarito?




A lot of the most eagerly anticipated fights arn't. Cazlaghe Hopkins was a non title catchweight fight and I don't remember any complaints. So was Pavlik Hopkins.

Yet not a single person on this board complained that Pavlik and Calzaghe were cowards, forcing Hopkins to 'drain' himself and that the fights tarnished boxing.

In fact when Winky fought Hopkins also at a catchweight everyone said Winky was too small, even though once again Hopkins 'drained' himself by moving down to 168.

Again, this is a complete fabrication of the REAL truth.

Hopkins fought Winky at 170… not Super Middle.
And while Winky was clearly too small for the weight there’s NO WAY IN HELL Hopkins had to sacrifice anything for this fight. This ‘catchweight’ was no way a middle-ground.

In fact I remember correctly, when Hopkins initially decided to make the leap from 160 to 170+ He had to hire a top notch, overpriced Conditioning coach to ensure Hopkins bulked up for the higher weight.

Hopkins was making 160 with ease and to be honest, is much bigger up at this new weight. Its not like he couldn’t make 160, or 168.
He’s whole ploy has clearly been to do quite the opposite to what Pacquiao is trying to do now (equally as faggoty IMO ).

Finally a key point I’d like to make here is that Calzaghe, Pavlik and Wright were all consenting adult Meaning that they agreed the terms, which is fine for them. This doesn’t mean its fine for everybody.

Its also worth noting Bilbo that clearly Wright and Pavlik made the wrong choice in deciding to fight at 170. They only fighter who had any business moving up in weight actually beat Hopkins (Can you actually believe it!? ).




Really with guys like Juan Urango, Giacobbe Fragomeni, Karoly Balzsay, Malcom Klassen and Paulos Moses all being recognised as world champions, does it really 'tarnish' the sport if the unquestioned most exciting, explosive, dynamic little fighter in the world today gets given a WBO strap if he vanquishes the current holder a couple pounds below the max weight limit?

No doubt to some f***ing moany, whiny people it will be a travesty, but thankfully the boxing world pays no attention at all to them........

You don’t solve a problem by creating another one. Catchweights don’t solve the problem of weak paper champions.

IMO you make it sound like Manny Pacquio is he saviour of boxing and that fighting Cotto at the sacred weight of 143 will solve all of Boxing’s problems.

Bullshit. This fight would be a shot of Sugar in the arm and nothing more.

Well first off I wasn't referring to you at all in my last post, I didn't even realise you had posted regarding this I was talking about Adam and the like.

Secondly all your points just seem like a mass of contradiction to me.

How can you say Winky and Pavlik were dragged UP to a catchweight fight where B Hop coming DOWN was taking advantage of them and yet when Pacquaio moves up much further than both these guys he's taken advantage of Cotto?

Also if you want to try and say Hopkins could make 170 easily so he was at no disadvantage then what about when he fought Oscar at a catchweight of 158? If he was so naturally big for the weight how did he manage at almost 40 to shed those two precious pounds and weigh in under 160 for that fight?

Your logic needs to be consistent. If Manny is getting too big an advantage in bringing Cotto down a couple of pounds whilst moving up several himself then how come this advantage hasn't worked for anyone else, like Pavlik, Oscar and Winky against B Hop, like Cotto against Mosely, or even for the great Sugar Ray Leonard against Thomas Hearns, where Hearns defended his super middleweight title at a catchweight of 162 lbs and most people felt clearly won the fight?

Cotto is much smaller for his weight than Hopkins or Hearns were, and he's younger too, to say nothing of the fact that he doesn't even weigh in at the max 147 lb limit anyway.

How is he a full blown welterweight when he routinely weighs in at 146?

He can go to 145 EASILY, and if he can't SHAME ON HIM. If Mosely can do it, Hopkins can do it, Henry Armstrong could do it, Thomas Hearns could do it then why can't Cotto do it?

Manny is not a welterweight, and Cotto is not a big welterweight. Both can make 145 without any problems whatsoever so all this debate is pointless.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

OMG Bil come on... My logic needs to be consistant

Im not contradicting myself Bil, i'm simply commenting on two opposites of the same problem

Hopkins was making 160 EASILY. The fact he made 158 against Oscar supports this. Him moving up to 170 was done through bulking up. It was done carefully and professionally and it probably cost him a shit load of money. It was practically an investment!
Do you then understand that for him to want to fight smaller guys while bulking up stinks of Bullshit?

Now on the other hand, Manny Pacquiao fighting Oscar at 147 then stating that he will only fight Cotto at 143 (it was COTTO who wanted to fight at 145 Bil, you really need to get your facts together) again leaves a foul smell of bullshit in the air.

Now hows that for inconsistent

It's easy to point out how 'small' or 'big' a guy is for his weight but really your informed opinion has to be based on a bit more than just appearances.

Cotto hasn't fought below 146 for about 3 years now and each pound makes all the difference in terms of dehydration IMO.

And the end of the day Bil, if this fight were to happened it would of been signed by now but Cotto isn't silly, he obviously knows his own body. Mosley might be a bit desperate at this stage in his career but hopefully not.


Oh and finally, sorry about thinking you were aiming your posts at me. I thought that because i'm definitely aiming mine at you. Your the main protagonist for Catchweight fights and your quite the influential poster here on Saddo Boxing. I would feel a burning injustice if i were to let your i'll informed comments appear to hold water so again i apologise, honestly it's nothing personal but you know, im just doing my job

[Kev]

OMG Bil come on... My logic needs to be consistant

Im not contradicting myself Bil, i'm simply commenting on two opposites of the same problem

Hopkins was making 160 EASILY. The fact he made 158 against Oscar supports this. Him moving up to 170 was done through bulking up. It was done carefully and professionally and it probably cost him a shit load of money. It was practically an investment!
Do you then understand that for him to want to fight smaller guys while bulking up stinks of Bullshit?

Now on the other hand, Manny Pacquiao fighting Oscar at 147 then stating that he will only fight Cotto at 143 (it was COTTO who wanted to fight at 145 Bil, you really need to get your facts together) again leaves a foul smell of bullshit in the air.

Now hows that for inconsistent

It's easy to point out how 'small' or 'big' a guy is for his weight but really your informed opinion has to be based on a bit more than just appearances.

Cotto hasn't fought below 146 for about 3 years now and each pound makes all the difference in terms of dehydration IMO.

And the end of the day Bil, if this fight were to happened it would of been signed by now but Cotto isn't silly, he obviously knows his own body. Mosley might be a bit desperate at this stage in his career but hopefully not.


Oh and finally, sorry about thinking you were aiming your posts at me. I thought that because i'm definitely aiming mine at you. Your the main protagonist for Catchweight fights and your quite the influential poster here on Saddo Boxing. I would feel a burning injustice if i were to let your i'll informed comments appear to hold water so again i apologise, honestly it's nothing personal but you know, im just doing my job

Look if you think Hopkins made 158 easily I just cannot debate with you. Hopkins was a massive middleweight and his 'bulking up' as you put it was because he jumped 15 lbs and two weight classes in one go.

Hopkins is every bit as big as Tarver, Dawson, Jones Jr etc and always was he kept himself at 160 through fanatical dedication to the sport, the dude hasn't even eaten a chocolate bar in 20 years.

Anyway I'm sure you'l have reasons to explain how Marquez dragging Mayweather who only two fights ago was a junior middleweight down to 143 lbs is more acceptable than Manny wanting a catchweight fight against Cotto.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

We'll the day i found out Mayweather was fighting Marquez i did say that this fight shouldn't be happening anywhere north of 140. But really this fight shouldn't be happening at all.

I mean Marquez looked relatively soft at 135. I dread to think how he'll look at 147. No doubt he'll jump on the weights but i've been reading up on Shane Mosley's comments in the media lately and he's had some negative comments about his former conditioning coach. Claiming that all that work he was made to do on the weights only slowed him down.

I'm kind of assuming a similar thing will be apparent in Marquez against Mayweather... Stiffer, Less Rhythmic, Dis-jointed etc.

Mosley did comment that in Marquez he noticed some hidden power in his rise through the weights. He's been knocking guys out at 135. Guys who don't get knocked out. So im kinda hoping that Marquez' power will increase 3 fold against Mayweather

I doubt it though. He only knocked them guys out because he absolutely had to (if you know what i mean.)

[JazMerkin]

Bilbo, I've given up arguing any of your other points (no not because of the infallible logic, just because its futile), however one thing you said bothered me & simply isn't true. You said Pac would be the first ATG outside of America which is bollocks. Roberto Duran, Eder Jofre, Carlos Monzon, Alexis Arguello & Jimmy Wilde are all proof that is just not true & that's without mentioning any of the great Mexicans. The guy is amazing, but he's not the first from outside the US to be so.

[Dr. Steelhammer]

I'm pretty sure Bilbo meant American continentS.

[JazMerkin]

I'm pretty sure Bilbo meant American continentS.

I doubt it, how many of us mean South & Central America, when we say America, it generally means the US. Even then it ignores guys like Jimmy Wilde & Azumah Nelson who have good claims to being ATGs, although I would say Pacquiao is greater. However, its incorrect to say that he's the first ATG outside of the Americas, even if he is the best of them

[Kev]

Bilbo, I've given up arguing any of your other points (no not because of the infallible logic, just because its futile), however one thing you said bothered me & simply isn't true. You said Pac would be the first ATG outside of America which is bollocks. Roberto Duran, Eder Jofre, Carlos Monzon, Alexis Arguello & Jimmy Wilde are all proof that is just not true & that's without mentioning any of the great Mexicans. The guy is amazing, but he's not the first from outside the US to be so.

I specifically said the CONTINENT of America Jazmerkin. If you are going to critique my posts then at least try and read them properly.

So presuming you've gone back and seen that yes I did indeed say CONTINENT of America, are you still going to disagree?

Who are the all time top 20 greats who arn't from the CONTINENT of America?

[Kev]

To save you the time here's the exact sentence copied and pasted

Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.

So what part of that are you disagreeing with exactly?

[JazMerkin]

To save you the time here's the exact sentence copied and pasted

Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.

So what part of that are you disagreeing with exactly?

Well, as you're getting pissy over the exact wording then you didn't say Top 20 ATG, in which case Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaosai Galaxy, Marcel Cerdan, Fighting Harad all qualify. I also read it quickly & just read America, in which case I retract some of those fighters, but the ones above are still valid.

[Kev]

To save you the time here's the exact sentence copied and pasted

Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.

So what part of that are you disagreeing with exactly?

Well, as you're getting pissy over the exact wording then you didn't say Top 20 ATG, in which case Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaosai Galaxy, Marcel Cerdan, Fighting Harad all qualify. I also read it quickly & just read America, in which case I retract some of those fighters, but the ones above are still valid.

So if Manny beat Cotto you'd still have Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaisai Galaxt, Marcel Cerden and Fighting Harad on the same level as him?

For starters Manny is higher on the all time p4p than virtually all of them right now, if he beat Cotto, even at 145 he's knocking on the door of the top 10 of all time.

You really want to argue this?

[JazMerkin]

To save you the time here's the exact sentence copied and pasted

Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.

So what part of that are you disagreeing with exactly?

Well, as you're getting pissy over the exact wording then you didn't say Top 20 ATG, in which case Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaosai Galaxy, Marcel Cerdan, Fighting Harad all qualify. I also read it quickly & just read America, in which case I retract some of those fighters, but the ones above are still valid.

So if Manny beat Cotto you'd still have Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaisai Galaxt, Marcel Cerden and Fighting Harad on the same level as him?

For starters Manny is higher on the all time p4p than virtually all of them right now, if he beat Cotto, even at 145 he's knocking on the door of the top 10 of all time.

You really want to argue this?

Read my earlier post, where I said exactly that I rate Pacquiao higher than any of those guys, however that doesn't mean that they are not also ATGs. Try reading

What I was arguing was that they are ATGs, and in the case of Harada & also Dick Tiger they are in some people's all time Top 20s. Tiger in his time was actually a similar level of superstar as Pacquiao is now as hard as that might be to believe. I think if Pacquiao beats Cotto he's probably in my Top 20 of all-time, not sure he's in the Top 10 for me, there's too many great fighters for him to jump there yet. If he then beat Floyd though, he probably would jump there

[Kev]

Well, as you're getting pissy over the exact wording then you didn't say Top 20 ATG, in which case Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaosai Galaxy, Marcel Cerdan, Fighting Harad all qualify. I also read it quickly & just read America, in which case I retract some of those fighters, but the ones above are still valid.

So if Manny beat Cotto you'd still have Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaisai Galaxt, Marcel Cerden and Fighting Harad on the same level as him?

For starters Manny is higher on the all time p4p than virtually all of them right now, if he beat Cotto, even at 145 he's knocking on the door of the top 10 of all time.

You really want to argue this?

Read my earlier post, where I said exactly that I rate Pacquiao higher than any of those guys, however that doesn't mean that they are not also ATGs. Try reading

What I was arguing was that they are ATGs, and in the case of Harada & also Dick Tiger they are in some people's all time Top 20s. Tiger in his time was actually a similar level of superstar as Pacquiao is now as hard as that might be to believe. I think if Pacquiao beats Cotto he's probably in my Top 20 of all-time, not sure he's in the Top 10 for me, there's too many great fighters for him to jump there yet. If he then beat Floyd though, he probably would jump there

Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.

Ok please read my sentence back very slowly, out loud if it helps and then tell me specifically what part you are in disagreement with?

We can quibble over the definition of alltime great if you really want but can you see that the gist of what I am saying is absolutely correct.

Note the terms superstar and for a 'very long time' guys like Ricardo Lopez, Jimmy Wilde and Fighting Harad clearly do not come into those descriptions unless you think Lopez was a superstar and the others were not a very long time ago.

So now, outside of the CONTINENT of America how many RECENT SUPERSTAR ALLTIME greats have there been?

I think I am entirely right in saying that Manny has the CHANCE to go on to become the first ALL TIME GREAT not from the CONTINENT of America for a VERY LONG TIME.

If you are still struggling afterwards I suggest you see Miles who might be able to teach you to read, I'm sure his prices are reasonable

[Kev]

Just for fun lets name a few recent all time greats.

Right now? Only Roy Jones, B Hop and Floyd Mayweather would make the list among current fighters.

In recent times, Pernell Whittaker, J C Chavez.

Then you have to go back to Duran, Leonard, Hagler and Hearns.

Guys like Proyor and Arguello.

Maybe I've missed a couple but I can't think of any from the outside of the Americas that would measure up to the guys I've just mentioned.

But Pac yet might, so you see why I said he has the chance to become the first all time great outside of the Continent of America for a very long time?

Outside of Lennox Lewis and Calzaghe I can't think of a single other fighter that could rival the legacies of the guys above and I highly doubt many on here at all would rate either of them as highly as the guys above.

[Dr. Steelhammer]

Pac is already an ATG in or outside of american continent even if he fails to defeat Cotto. Galaxy, Fighting Harada, Flash Elorde, or Pancho Villa are nowhere near what Manny has accomplished. C'mon now.