Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth

[Kev]

To save you the time here's the exact sentence copied and pasted

Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.

So what part of that are you disagreeing with exactly?

Well, as you're getting pissy over the exact wording then you didn't say Top 20 ATG, in which case Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaosai Galaxy, Marcel Cerdan, Fighting Harad all qualify. I also read it quickly & just read America, in which case I retract some of those fighters, but the ones above are still valid.

So if Manny beat Cotto you'd still have Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaisai Galaxt, Marcel Cerden and Fighting Harad on the same level as him?

For starters Manny is higher on the all time p4p than virtually all of them right now, if he beat Cotto, even at 145 he's knocking on the door of the top 10 of all time.

You really want to argue this?

[JazMerkin]

To save you the time here's the exact sentence copied and pasted

Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.

So what part of that are you disagreeing with exactly?

Well, as you're getting pissy over the exact wording then you didn't say Top 20 ATG, in which case Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaosai Galaxy, Marcel Cerdan, Fighting Harad all qualify. I also read it quickly & just read America, in which case I retract some of those fighters, but the ones above are still valid.

So if Manny beat Cotto you'd still have Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaisai Galaxt, Marcel Cerden and Fighting Harad on the same level as him?

For starters Manny is higher on the all time p4p than virtually all of them right now, if he beat Cotto, even at 145 he's knocking on the door of the top 10 of all time.

You really want to argue this?

Read my earlier post, where I said exactly that I rate Pacquiao higher than any of those guys, however that doesn't mean that they are not also ATGs. Try reading

What I was arguing was that they are ATGs, and in the case of Harada & also Dick Tiger they are in some people's all time Top 20s. Tiger in his time was actually a similar level of superstar as Pacquiao is now as hard as that might be to believe. I think if Pacquiao beats Cotto he's probably in my Top 20 of all-time, not sure he's in the Top 10 for me, there's too many great fighters for him to jump there yet. If he then beat Floyd though, he probably would jump there

[Kev]

Well, as you're getting pissy over the exact wording then you didn't say Top 20 ATG, in which case Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaosai Galaxy, Marcel Cerdan, Fighting Harad all qualify. I also read it quickly & just read America, in which case I retract some of those fighters, but the ones above are still valid.

So if Manny beat Cotto you'd still have Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaisai Galaxt, Marcel Cerden and Fighting Harad on the same level as him?

For starters Manny is higher on the all time p4p than virtually all of them right now, if he beat Cotto, even at 145 he's knocking on the door of the top 10 of all time.

You really want to argue this?

Read my earlier post, where I said exactly that I rate Pacquiao higher than any of those guys, however that doesn't mean that they are not also ATGs. Try reading

What I was arguing was that they are ATGs, and in the case of Harada & also Dick Tiger they are in some people's all time Top 20s. Tiger in his time was actually a similar level of superstar as Pacquiao is now as hard as that might be to believe. I think if Pacquiao beats Cotto he's probably in my Top 20 of all-time, not sure he's in the Top 10 for me, there's too many great fighters for him to jump there yet. If he then beat Floyd though, he probably would jump there

Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.

Ok please read my sentence back very slowly, out loud if it helps and then tell me specifically what part you are in disagreement with?

We can quibble over the definition of alltime great if you really want but can you see that the gist of what I am saying is absolutely correct.

Note the terms superstar and for a 'very long time' guys like Ricardo Lopez, Jimmy Wilde and Fighting Harad clearly do not come into those descriptions unless you think Lopez was a superstar and the others were not a very long time ago.

So now, outside of the CONTINENT of America how many RECENT SUPERSTAR ALLTIME greats have there been?

I think I am entirely right in saying that Manny has the CHANCE to go on to become the first ALL TIME GREAT not from the CONTINENT of America for a VERY LONG TIME.

If you are still struggling afterwards I suggest you see Miles who might be able to teach you to read, I'm sure his prices are reasonable

[Kev]

Just for fun lets name a few recent all time greats.

Right now? Only Roy Jones, B Hop and Floyd Mayweather would make the list among current fighters.

In recent times, Pernell Whittaker, J C Chavez.

Then you have to go back to Duran, Leonard, Hagler and Hearns.

Guys like Proyor and Arguello.

Maybe I've missed a couple but I can't think of any from the outside of the Americas that would measure up to the guys I've just mentioned.

But Pac yet might, so you see why I said he has the chance to become the first all time great outside of the Continent of America for a very long time?

Outside of Lennox Lewis and Calzaghe I can't think of a single other fighter that could rival the legacies of the guys above and I highly doubt many on here at all would rate either of them as highly as the guys above.

[Dr. Steelhammer]

Pac is already an ATG in or outside of american continent even if he fails to defeat Cotto. Galaxy, Fighting Harada, Flash Elorde, or Pancho Villa are nowhere near what Manny has accomplished. C'mon now.

[Kev]

Pac is already an ATG in or outside of american continent even if he fails to defeat Cotto. Galaxy, Fighting Harada, Flash Elorde, or Pancho Villa are nowhere near what Manny has accomplished. C'mon now.

Exactly

[generalbulldog]

Hopkins coming down to 158 at age 39 against Oscar and being a massively big body Middleweight is considered to be an easy thing to do, but Cotto at 29 years old and in his physical prime years coming in at 144 or 145 is considered to be weight draining? That doesn't sound right. That's inconsistent logic.

[Kev]

Hopkins coming down to 158 at age 39 against Oscar and being a massively big body Middleweight is considered to be an easy thing to do, but Cotto at 29 years old and in his physical prime years coming in at 144 or 145 is considered to be weight draining? That doesn't sound right. That's inconsistent logic.

Nope but it is the logic of Saddo's I'm afraid.

Floyd, only two fights removed from fighting at junior middleweight and after a lengthy retirement can move down to 143 lbs without difficulty as well.

Weight draining typically affects only Manny Pacquaio opponents.

Surely this is not self evident to you? You see the 5 ft 8 inch Floyd is so much smaller naturally than the 5 ft 7 inch Cotto and that's why he moved to welterweight over a year before Miguel did.

It's also interesting to note that Cotto weighed in at only 138 lbs against Malignaggi so a Manny fight at 145 still gives him a full seven pounds to play with. And lets not forget he only weighed in at 146 against Clottey.

But this pound is everything

[JazMerkin]

The logic on weight-draining is inconsistent, & in the ODLH-B-Hop fight I had the same criticisms I have now, I don't believe 160 was easy for Hopkins to make, hence why he jumped all the way to LHW after the Taylor fights.

However, using heights to say who is bigger is just wrong, it's like arguing that Mike Tyson is a smaller fighter than Paul Williams because of his height. Floyd is not as muscularly built as Cotto & that's why it's less difficult for him to come down to smaller weights. I think Cotto can make 145 & be fairly effective, however, my issue is that I think Pacquiao CAN beat him at 147 & it would be a more impressive feat. The difference with say the Wright-Hopkins fight is that Wright had never fought at the weight previously or above 160, which is similar to why people are less critical of the JMM-PBF catchweight due to JMM never being above 135. It is hypocritical though that some of the same people who thought it was ridiculous that Floyd didn't come down to 140 are complaining at Pac for bringing Cotto down 2 lbs.

On comparing Pacquiao to the older fighters from Asia like Harada or Tiger from Africa though, I feel one thing that should be noted (& I have said that I do rate Pac a bit higher so if you still think I'm criticizing Pac you go see Miles ) is that they fought at a time when there were same day weigh-ins & less advances in sports nutrition & technology, so being a 2 weight world champion in those times was as impressive as doing it in multiple divisions now. It's not just nostalgia acknowledging how good some of these guys were.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Hopkins coming down to 158 at age 39 against Oscar and being a massively big body Middleweight is considered to be an easy thing to do, but Cotto at 29 years old and in his physical prime years coming in at 144 or 145 is considered to be weight draining? That doesn't sound right. That's inconsistent logic.

I said he was making 160 easy and the fact that he made 158 at 39 supports this. I admit the word easy is an understatement as only a man like Hopkins could make it easy due to his life style... But that's Hopkins. Everyone is different. Its no contardiction to say, for example, that Vargas couldn't get down to 154.

Its all down to the individual. Cotto was struggling at 140 and has thrived at 146.

Back to Hopkins. Also the MANOR in which Hopkins went about moving up to Light Heavyweight strongly suggests that his body was fine at 160. He looked fine in his fights against Taylor.

[JazMerkin]

Hopkins coming down to 158 at age 39 against Oscar and being a massively big body Middleweight is considered to be an easy thing to do, but Cotto at 29 years old and in his physical prime years coming in at 144 or 145 is considered to be weight draining? That doesn't sound right. That's inconsistent logic.

I said he was making 160 easy and the fact that he made 158 at 39 supports this. I admit the word easy is an understatement as only a man like Hopkins could make it easy due to his life style... But that's Hopkins. Everyone is different. Its no contardiction to say, for example, that Vargas couldn't get down to 154.

Its all down to the individual. Cotto was struggling at 140 and has thrived at 146.

Back to Hopkins. Also the MANOR in which Hopkins went about moving up to Light Heavyweight strongly suggests that his body was fine at 160. He looked fine in his fights against Taylor.

Hopkins was drained getting down for both fights against Taylor particularly the 2nd, that's as well-known as the fact that Cotto struggled making 140. Most acknowledge he stayed long past when he should have moved up

[JT Rock]

Depends on the man, I remember a few years ago Larry and Jim talking about Hopkins being proud of his 31in waist and how much of a fanatic he is about his body and how he wont even touch a cookie or cake.

Some fighters turn into homer simpson between fights and then have to boil down at the 11th hour, those are the fighters that typically would be effected adversely.. Guys that stay reasonably around their fighting weight between fights arent going to be killing themselves dropping a few more pounds

[Kev]

Depends on the man, I remember a few years ago Larry and Jim talking about Hopkins being proud of his 31in waist and how much of a fanatic he is about his body and how he wont even touch a cookie or cake.

Some fighters turn into homer simpson between fights and then have to boil down at the 11th hour, those are the fighters that typically would be effected adversely.. Guys that stay reasonably around their fighting weight between fights arent going to be killing themselves dropping a few more pounds

If that's the case those JT don't you agree that if someone, such as for example Oscar cannot drop the weight properly it's basically shame on them, and should reflect on their overal ability as a fighter?

I mean we the truly elite fighters to have the skill set and talent to be able to move up through the weight classes and win despite facing bigger guys should not the same logic extend to those who have the between fights discipline and mental toughness to be able to keep permantly in shape and thus are able to make weights that those who let themselves go cannot?

For example I believe that Hopkins ability to drop to 158, and to keep himself at 160 in such good condition for so long reflects well on him and is one of the reasons why I believe he's a better boxer than Oscar who clearly let a life of indulgance and excess get in the way of his training in his final fights?