Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth

[Kev]

Well, as you're getting pissy over the exact wording then you didn't say Top 20 ATG, in which case Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaosai Galaxy, Marcel Cerdan, Fighting Harad all qualify. I also read it quickly & just read America, in which case I retract some of those fighters, but the ones above are still valid.

So if Manny beat Cotto you'd still have Jimmy Wilde, Azumah Nelson, Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Khaisai Galaxt, Marcel Cerden and Fighting Harad on the same level as him?

For starters Manny is higher on the all time p4p than virtually all of them right now, if he beat Cotto, even at 145 he's knocking on the door of the top 10 of all time.

You really want to argue this?

Read my earlier post, where I said exactly that I rate Pacquiao higher than any of those guys, however that doesn't mean that they are not also ATGs. Try reading

What I was arguing was that they are ATGs, and in the case of Harada & also Dick Tiger they are in some people's all time Top 20s. Tiger in his time was actually a similar level of superstar as Pacquiao is now as hard as that might be to believe. I think if Pacquiao beats Cotto he's probably in my Top 20 of all-time, not sure he's in the Top 10 for me, there's too many great fighters for him to jump there yet. If he then beat Floyd though, he probably would jump there

Asia has never had an all time great superstar and for the first time in a very long time we have a chance for a fighter not from the continent of America to go on and become an alltime great.

Ok please read my sentence back very slowly, out loud if it helps and then tell me specifically what part you are in disagreement with?

We can quibble over the definition of alltime great if you really want but can you see that the gist of what I am saying is absolutely correct.

Note the terms superstar and for a 'very long time' guys like Ricardo Lopez, Jimmy Wilde and Fighting Harad clearly do not come into those descriptions unless you think Lopez was a superstar and the others were not a very long time ago.

So now, outside of the CONTINENT of America how many RECENT SUPERSTAR ALLTIME greats have there been?

I think I am entirely right in saying that Manny has the CHANCE to go on to become the first ALL TIME GREAT not from the CONTINENT of America for a VERY LONG TIME.

If you are still struggling afterwards I suggest you see Miles who might be able to teach you to read, I'm sure his prices are reasonable

[Kev]

Just for fun lets name a few recent all time greats.

Right now? Only Roy Jones, B Hop and Floyd Mayweather would make the list among current fighters.

In recent times, Pernell Whittaker, J C Chavez.

Then you have to go back to Duran, Leonard, Hagler and Hearns.

Guys like Proyor and Arguello.

Maybe I've missed a couple but I can't think of any from the outside of the Americas that would measure up to the guys I've just mentioned.

But Pac yet might, so you see why I said he has the chance to become the first all time great outside of the Continent of America for a very long time?

Outside of Lennox Lewis and Calzaghe I can't think of a single other fighter that could rival the legacies of the guys above and I highly doubt many on here at all would rate either of them as highly as the guys above.

[Dr. Steelhammer]

Pac is already an ATG in or outside of american continent even if he fails to defeat Cotto. Galaxy, Fighting Harada, Flash Elorde, or Pancho Villa are nowhere near what Manny has accomplished. C'mon now.

[Kev]

Pac is already an ATG in or outside of american continent even if he fails to defeat Cotto. Galaxy, Fighting Harada, Flash Elorde, or Pancho Villa are nowhere near what Manny has accomplished. C'mon now.

Exactly