Who comes close to being a "perfect fighter?"

[JazMerkin]

Ricardo Lopez
Salvador Sanchez
Floyd Mayweather Jr
Roy Jones Jr
James Toney
Larry Holmes
Alexis Arguello

Are some that come to mind.

I agree on the first 3.

However, Jones lacked the urge to finish fights when he could have at times, & I think that means he can't be.

Toney has all the natural physical abilities to be a perfect fighter but his lack of interest in conditioning & so on means he loses out for me.

Holmes is close, although I'm sceptical whether his handspeed was good enough to make him 'perfect'.

Arguello I agree on.

[ICB]

Ricardo Lopez
Salvador Sanchez
Floyd Mayweather Jr
Roy Jones Jr
James Toney
Larry Holmes
Alexis Arguello

Are some that come to mind.

I agree on the first 3.

However, Jones lacked the urge to finish fights when he could have at times, & I think that means he can't be.

Toney has all the natural physical abilities to be a perfect fighter but his lack of interest in conditioning & so on means he loses out for me.

Holmes is close, although I'm sceptical whether his handspeed was good enough to make him 'perfect'.

Arguello I agree on.

Im actually on about on there best night Jaz, like the James Toney that took apart Iran Barkley. Or the Roy Jones Jr that would destroy fighters, before the Nigel Benn vs Gerald McClellan incident made him cautious, like when he dismantled Thomas Tate for example. Or the Larry Holmes that took apart Earnie Shavers in there first fight, i think Larry Holmes is easily in top 10 for the fastest Heavyweights of all time.

[JazMerkin]

Ricardo Lopez
Salvador Sanchez
Floyd Mayweather Jr
Roy Jones Jr
James Toney
Larry Holmes
Alexis Arguello

Are some that come to mind.

I agree on the first 3.

However, Jones lacked the urge to finish fights when he could have at times, & I think that means he can't be.

Toney has all the natural physical abilities to be a perfect fighter but his lack of interest in conditioning & so on means he loses out for me.

Holmes is close, although I'm sceptical whether his handspeed was good enough to make him 'perfect'.

Arguello I agree on.

Im actually on about on there best night Jaz, like the James Toney that took apart Iran Barkley. Or the Roy Jones Jr that would destroy fighters, before the Nigel Benn vs Gerald McClellan incident. Or the Larry Holmes that took apart Earnie Shavers in there first fight, i think Larry Holmes is easily in top 10 for the fastest Heavyweights of all time.

Yeah, but you said in the previous post that they could have off-nights. I know you're a fan of all those fighters but the fact is looking at their careers, even their primes, those are all deficiencies they have. I don't think Holmes had great handspeed, he had fantastic punch accuracy which I think made up for it, but I really don't think he had great handspeed.

[ICB]

I agree on the first 3.

However, Jones lacked the urge to finish fights when he could have at times, & I think that means he can't be.

Toney has all the natural physical abilities to be a perfect fighter but his lack of interest in conditioning & so on means he loses out for me.

Holmes is close, although I'm sceptical whether his handspeed was good enough to make him 'perfect'.

Arguello I agree on.

Im actually on about on there best night Jaz, like the James Toney that took apart Iran Barkley. Or the Roy Jones Jr that would destroy fighters, before the Nigel Benn vs Gerald McClellan incident. Or the Larry Holmes that took apart Earnie Shavers in there first fight, i think Larry Holmes is easily in top 10 for the fastest Heavyweights of all time.

Yeah, but you said in the previous post that they could have off-nights. I know you're a fan of all those fighters but the fact is looking at their careers, even their primes, those are all deficiencies they have. I don't think Holmes had great handspeed, he had fantastic punch accuracy which I think made up for it, but I really don't think he had great handspeed.

But if we are basing it on that, then no fighter can be close to a perfect fighter then. Because even Salvador Sanchez had off nights, in two very close decision wins against Pat Cowdell, Patrick Ford.

All great fighters have off nights, some more so than others. But thats why when we have threads like this. I like to think of there greatest performance, where they looked unbeatable.

[JazMerkin]

Im actually on about on there best night Jaz, like the James Toney that took apart Iran Barkley. Or the Roy Jones Jr that would destroy fighters, before the Nigel Benn vs Gerald McClellan incident. Or the Larry Holmes that took apart Earnie Shavers in there first fight, i think Larry Holmes is easily in top 10 for the fastest Heavyweights of all time.

Yeah, but you said in the previous post that they could have off-nights. I know you're a fan of all those fighters but the fact is looking at their careers, even their primes, those are all deficiencies they have. I don't think Holmes had great handspeed, he had fantastic punch accuracy which I think made up for it, but I really don't think he had great handspeed.

But if we are basing it on that, then no fighter can be close to a perfect fighter then. Because even Salvador Sanchez had off nights, in two very close decision wins against Pat Cowdell, Patrick Ford.

All great fighters have off nights, some more so than others. But thats why when we have threads like this. I like to think of there greatest performance, where they looked unbeatable.

Yes, but then Ali had nights, like against Foreman or Patterson that he looked like a perfect fighter. In fact many a fighter could be perfect if you base it on their best nights. It should be at least over the basis of passage of time. In that case, none of those fighters are 'perfect'. Roy Jones Jr was an incredible fighter, but not perfect, the same with the other guys. Toney particularly had all the natural ingredients to be an ATG of the highest calibre, but he lacked the attitude to make the best of what he had.

[ICB]

Yeah, but you said in the previous post that they could have off-nights. I know you're a fan of all those fighters but the fact is looking at their careers, even their primes, those are all deficiencies they have. I don't think Holmes had great handspeed, he had fantastic punch accuracy which I think made up for it, but I really don't think he had great handspeed.

But if we are basing it on that, then no fighter can be close to a perfect fighter then. Because even Salvador Sanchez had off nights, in two very close decision wins against Pat Cowdell, Patrick Ford.

All great fighters have off nights, some more so than others. But thats why when we have threads like this. I like to think of there greatest performance, where they looked unbeatable.

Yes, but then Ali had nights, like against Foreman or Patterson that he looked like a perfect fighter. In fact many a fighter could be perfect if you base it on their best nights. It should be at least over the basis of passage of time. In that case, none of those fighters are 'perfect'. Roy Jones Jr was an incredible fighter, but not perfect, the same with the other guys. Toney particularly had all the natural ingredients to be an ATG of the highest calibre, but he lacked the attitude to make the best of what he had.

To be honest though i think RJJ looked more unbeatable, than Muhammad Ali ever did. I mean to win even 4 rounds against a prime RJJ. Was considered an achievement, i mean he only ever struggled against Eric Harding, Montel Griffin 1, in his prime.

Where as Muhammad Ali had a bunch of struggles, he had many controversial decisions and struggles against mediocre fighters. I don't see why you call Muhammad Ali an almost perfect fighter but not RJJ, there pretty similar with how they relied alot on there athletic ability, except RJJ hit harder.

[jon09]

Joe Louis and Ray Robinson old school

Bernard Hopkins is pretty damn close to perfection he just lacks power.

A prime Roy Jones was a thing of beauty.

[JazMerkin]

But if we are basing it on that, then no fighter can be close to a perfect fighter then. Because even Salvador Sanchez had off nights, in two very close decision wins against Pat Cowdell, Patrick Ford.

All great fighters have off nights, some more so than others. But thats why when we have threads like this. I like to think of there greatest performance, where they looked unbeatable.

Yes, but then Ali had nights, like against Foreman or Patterson that he looked like a perfect fighter. In fact many a fighter could be perfect if you base it on their best nights. It should be at least over the basis of passage of time. In that case, none of those fighters are 'perfect'. Roy Jones Jr was an incredible fighter, but not perfect, the same with the other guys. Toney particularly had all the natural ingredients to be an ATG of the highest calibre, but he lacked the attitude to make the best of what he had.

To be honest though i think RJJ looked more unbeatable, than Muhammad Ali ever did. I mean to win even 4 rounds against a prime RJJ. Was considered an achievement, i mean he only ever struggled against Eric Harding, Montel Griffin 1, in his prime.

Where as Muhammad Ali had a bunch of struggles, he had many controversial decisions and struggles against mediocre fighters. I don't see why you call Muhammad Ali an almost perfect fighter but not RJJ, there pretty similar with how they relied alot on there athletic ability, except RJJ hit harder.

No I can accept someone not seeing Ali as the perfect fighter, but with RJJ one thing he didn't have (I suspect at any point) was an excellent chin. Now I'm not one of these people who pretends he has a glass jaw, he didn't, but I don't think his chin was great which alone would stop him being a perfect fighter. Also too much of his prime was spent fighting guys not able to extend him. I got the impression that a Toney who actually bothered to train properly could have given him a trouble, as could a slightly more experienced Hopkins. He would have beaten Calzaghe at any point till he went to HW though. Fact.

[KKisser]

But if we are basing it on that, then no fighter can be close to a perfect fighter then. Because even Salvador Sanchez had off nights, in two very close decision wins against Pat Cowdell, Patrick Ford.

All great fighters have off nights, some more so than others. But thats why when we have threads like this. I like to think of there greatest performance, where they looked unbeatable.

Yes, but then Ali had nights, like against Foreman or Patterson that he looked like a perfect fighter. In fact many a fighter could be perfect if you base it on their best nights. It should be at least over the basis of passage of time. In that case, none of those fighters are 'perfect'. Roy Jones Jr was an incredible fighter, but not perfect, the same with the other guys. Toney particularly had all the natural ingredients to be an ATG of the highest calibre, but he lacked the attitude to make the best of what he had.

To be honest though i think RJJ looked more unbeatable, than Muhammad Ali ever did. I mean to win even 4 rounds against a prime RJJ. Was considered an achievement, i mean he only ever struggled against Eric Harding, Montel Griffin 1, in his prime.

Where as Muhammad Ali had a bunch of struggles, he had many controversial decisions and struggles against mediocre fighters. I don't see why you call Muhammad Ali an almost perfect fighter but not RJJ, there pretty similar with how they relied alot on there athletic ability, except RJJ hit harder.

agree, i like roy. if he had good whiskers he'd be a perfect fighter.

[holmcall]

Yeah, but you said in the previous post that they could have off-nights. I know you're a fan of all those fighters but the fact is looking at their careers, even their primes, those are all deficiencies they have. I don't think Holmes had great handspeed, he had fantastic punch accuracy which I think made up for it, but I really don't think he had great handspeed.

But if we are basing it on that, then no fighter can be close to a perfect fighter then. Because even Salvador Sanchez had off nights, in two very close decision wins against Pat Cowdell, Patrick Ford.

All great fighters have off nights, some more so than others. But thats why when we have threads like this. I like to think of there greatest performance, where they looked unbeatable.

Yes, but then Ali had nights, like against Foreman or Patterson that he looked like a perfect fighter. In fact many a fighter could be perfect if you base it on their best nights. It should be at least over the basis of passage of time. In that case, none of those fighters are 'perfect'. Roy Jones Jr was an incredible fighter, but not perfect, the same with the other guys. Toney particularly had all the natural ingredients to be an ATG of the highest calibre, but he lacked the attitude to make the best of what he had.

Sanchez and Jofre sustained their greatness for a lengthy period of time. Ali did not IMO.

[Jody Lane]

I agree on the first 3.

However, Jones lacked the urge to finish fights when he could have at times, & I think that means he can't be.

Toney has all the natural physical abilities to be a perfect fighter but his lack of interest in conditioning & so on means he loses out for me.

Holmes is close, although I'm sceptical whether his handspeed was good enough to make him 'perfect'.

Arguello I agree on.

Im actually on about on there best night Jaz, like the James Toney that took apart Iran Barkley. Or the Roy Jones Jr that would destroy fighters, before the Nigel Benn vs Gerald McClellan incident. Or the Larry Holmes that took apart Earnie Shavers in there first fight, i think Larry Holmes is easily in top 10 for the fastest Heavyweights of all time.

Yeah, but you said in the previous post that they could have off-nights. I know you're a fan of all those fighters but the fact is looking at their careers, even their primes, those are all deficiencies they have. I don't think Holmes had great handspeed, he had fantastic punch accuracy which I think made up for it, but I really don't think he had great handspeed.

I hate to disagree with you but Holmes had fantastic handspeed in his youth (before 1985). And his jab sure as hell smacked a bigger wallop than Ali's. Holmes just set down on his punches more than Ali. He might not have tried to throw the same kind of flurries that Ali did, but it was because he seemed more intent on ending fights early. If you remember he was almost 29 when he won the title. Ali was 29 when he began his comeback. Look at the fights that Ali had at 29-32 and the same for Holmes and who was quicker and more devastating.

[X]

There is no such thing as the perfect fighter (as we all know) ..... some people may point to the likes of Marciano who was undefeated, but they would be sacrificing their objective judgement on the cold altar of statistics.

In terms of people who didnt seem to have any obvious weaknesses, fighters like Hagler could do everything (although he did have a tendency towards passivity in the ring) .... Joe Louis was very very good at everything - the complete fighting machine, but he sometimes had poor balance and could be caught early on in fights.

Ali is not a good example of this - he had a freakish style and a character suited to battling real and imaginary enemies, but he held his hands low, sometimes undertrained and was not a one-punch hitter (Cleveland Williams may disagree with me there)

Sonny Liston was a solid guy - good technique, killer power, right temperament. George Foreman was built in the same mold.

In heavyweight terms, Cus D'Amato did describe his vision of the perfect fighter - six foot to six foot two, big shoulders tapering to a slim waist, thin legs but with big thighs. A fighter who was aware of his strenghts and constantly hereded his opponents towards them. He said this in the 1940's and famously was describing Max Bear ....... but you could see how he developed his later fighters on this identikit?

For me though, longevity charisma, speed, intelligence, power and every punch and tick in the book all came together in Ray Robinson. The guy really did have everything and as a welterweight was probably unbeatable.

[Hoggmeister]

IMO Mike Tyson at 20 years old had it all, speed, power and an iron jaw. He could fight either on the inside or out and had great stamina when going the distance.

[uwey]

Joe Calzaghe, Bernard Hopkins and Paul Williams. Dont laugh but those are my definition of all most perfect. That's my odd couple + 1.

[Kev]

There is no such thing as the perfect fighter (as we all know) ..... some people may point to the likes of Marciano who was undefeated, but they would be sacrificing their objective judgement on the cold altar of statistics.

In terms of people who didnt seem to have any obvious weaknesses, fighters like Hagler could do everything (although he did have a tendency towards passivity in the ring) .... Joe Louis was very very good at everything - the complete fighting machine, but he sometimes had poor balance and could be caught early on in fights.

Ali is not a good example of this - he had a freakish style and a character suited to battling real and imaginary enemies, but he held his hands low, sometimes undertrained and was not a one-punch hitter (Cleveland Williams may disagree with me there)

Sonny Liston was a solid guy - good technique, killer power, right temperament. George Foreman was built in the same mold.

In heavyweight terms, Cus D'Amato did describe his vision of the perfect fighter - six foot to six foot two, big shoulders tapering to a slim waist, thin legs but with big thighs. A fighter who was aware of his strenghts and constantly hereded his opponents towards them. He said this in the 1940's and famously was describing Max Bear ....... but you could see how he developed his later fighters on this identikit?

For me though, longevity charisma, speed, intelligence, power and every punch and tick in the book all came together in Ray Robinson. The guy really did have everything and as a welterweight was probably unbeatable.

Nobody is unbeatable, except for maybe Carl 'The Cobra' Froch.