Froch is the favourite for Super Six Tournament

[CFH]

Taylor was one fight removed p4p hardly far far removed. He's still a world class force and better than any other fighter that any of these guys have beat.

Who of the guys the others have beat would you rate above him?

Miranda?
Mundine?
Beyer?

The only other guy who has beaten fighters of real pedigree is Taylor, and Froch knocked him out.


As for Abraham schooling Miranda firstly I'm talking about both bouts. Ward handled him easily first time around, whereas Abraham went life and death in the first fight.

Secondly Abraham didn't school Miranda for the entirety of the second fight, you could make a case that Edison won all the first three rounds as Abraham started with his typically cagey slow opening style.

Once he had him hurt he took him apart for sure but he wasn't outboxing Miranda up to that point, far from it.

Ward is a better boxer than Abraham, but with considerably less power. When these two meet it will be exciting. If Ward can take Abraham's power he outworks him and wins a decision imo.

If not, then Abraham either finishes him or puts him in survival mode enough to win a UD.

Taylor was more than once fight removed from P4P status. More than a few lists I saw dropped him from their top 10 after the Spinks fight. Regardless of when he was dropped, he hasn't been considered a top 10 P4P fighter since 2007.

Re: Miranda

The first fight between Abraham and Miranda was close (made much close because of the broken jaw IMO), but at that point Miranda was a completely unknown entity and a much better opponent as a result of that. Miranda made his name on that first fight. As soon as Pavlik, and later Abraham, beat him the mystique had been undone. Even following the Pavlik loss, many people (perhaps a majority) were picking him to beat Abraham in the rematch. Abraham travelled to his backyard, and yes took him to school. Abraham did little offensively for the first three rounds, but even with him in full on defensive mode Miranda didn't land a single clean punch the entire fight. As soon as he started opening up in round 4, Abraham countered him and knocked him out. He was comprehensively outboxed and outthought the entire fight. By the time Ward fought him, he was a badly exposed fighter who no longer was able to intimidate his opponents. Not to take anything away from Ward - it was a solid, well-fought victory, but in my mind it was far less impressive than the two Abraham victories.

You neatly sidestepped my first question.

Who better than Taylor have ANY of the other guys beaten?

If you want to insist he hasn't been p4p for the last two years, name a single opponent any of the other guys has beat who has EVER been in the p4p?

None of the other guys Froch and Taylor withstanding, have beaten a p4p fighter, either p4p present or p4p at any time in their careers. My point still stands.

If you disagree then point out which opponents on the resume's of Ward, Dirrel, Abraham and Kessler is a better win then KO'ing Jermain Taylor?

I ignored it because it wasn't relevant to the discussion we were having. We were talking about Taylor's P4P status and Ward/Abraham's victories over Miranda.

No one in the tournament has beaten anyone better than Jermaine Taylor. However, that doesn't necessarily make Froch the best fight in the tournament.

[Kev]

Taylor was more than once fight removed from P4P status. More than a few lists I saw dropped him from their top 10 after the Spinks fight. Regardless of when he was dropped, he hasn't been considered a top 10 P4P fighter since 2007.

Re: Miranda

The first fight between Abraham and Miranda was close (made much close because of the broken jaw IMO), but at that point Miranda was a completely unknown entity and a much better opponent as a result of that. Miranda made his name on that first fight. As soon as Pavlik, and later Abraham, beat him the mystique had been undone. Even following the Pavlik loss, many people (perhaps a majority) were picking him to beat Abraham in the rematch. Abraham travelled to his backyard, and yes took him to school. Abraham did little offensively for the first three rounds, but even with him in full on defensive mode Miranda didn't land a single clean punch the entire fight. As soon as he started opening up in round 4, Abraham countered him and knocked him out. He was comprehensively outboxed and outthought the entire fight. By the time Ward fought him, he was a badly exposed fighter who no longer was able to intimidate his opponents. Not to take anything away from Ward - it was a solid, well-fought victory, but in my mind it was far less impressive than the two Abraham victories.

You neatly sidestepped my first question.

Who better than Taylor have ANY of the other guys beaten?

If you want to insist he hasn't been p4p for the last two years, name a single opponent any of the other guys has beat who has EVER been in the p4p?

None of the other guys Froch and Taylor withstanding, have beaten a p4p fighter, either p4p present or p4p at any time in their careers. My point still stands.

If you disagree then point out which opponents on the resume's of Ward, Dirrel, Abraham and Kessler is a better win then KO'ing Jermain Taylor?

I ignored it because it wasn't relevant to the discussion we were having. We were talking about Taylor's P4P status and Ward/Abraham's victories over Miranda.

No one in the tournament has beaten anyone better than Jermaine Taylor. However, that doesn't necessarily make Froch the best fight in the tournament.

Well this is the entirety of what I wrote;


Maybe they have Froch as favourite becuase his meeting with Taylor is the only form guide we have, none of the others having met each other before.

KO'ing the former undisputed middleweight champion of the world, a fighter who has only ever been beaten by one other man (dodgy scorecards withstanding) is probably seen as great form going in to this.

Abraham at super middleweight is an unknown, also Miranda aside he's never fought an elite opponent.

Kessler lost to Calzaghe and has been pretty inactive since. Maybe he should be favourite, but its clear only Froch has a win over a p4p guy at this point.

I think everything I said above is accurate. Nowhere above did I claim Froch would win the tournament, or that I thought he was favourite, I just aimed to answer the question why the bookies made him favourite.

And the fact is he's the favourite for two reasons, one he's the British boy, and two because he's the only guy in this tournament who has a Grade A win over an elite fighter.

You can argue semantics about whether Taylor was not p4p for the past couple years but there is no question that he has been p4p, and p4p Top 5 no less, so he's an elite fighter, and none of the other fighters, not even Kessler have an elite opponent on their resume.

Taylor was unquestionable p4p when he beat Hopkins twice and was the undisputed middleweight champ. He's still not even 30 I believe and has only ever been beaten by one before. Knocking him out is the biggest win any of these 6 have, and the fact that Froch did it is why the bookies have him favourite,

So far from being irelevent, my posting was entirely to the point

You saying he wasn't p4p when Froch beat him is what is irelevent. My point is nobody else has beaten anyone better, and in a tournament that favours knockouts, Froch's proven ability to KO elite fighters, along with his British status has seen him (quite sensibly from the bookmakers point of view) to being made the betting favourite prior to the beginning of the tournament.

Of course all odds will change as the event goes on, but right now William Hill have him favourite for a reason, him winning could cost them the most money.

[CFH]

You neatly sidestepped my first question.

Who better than Taylor have ANY of the other guys beaten?

If you want to insist he hasn't been p4p for the last two years, name a single opponent any of the other guys has beat who has EVER been in the p4p?

None of the other guys Froch and Taylor withstanding, have beaten a p4p fighter, either p4p present or p4p at any time in their careers. My point still stands.

If you disagree then point out which opponents on the resume's of Ward, Dirrel, Abraham and Kessler is a better win then KO'ing Jermain Taylor?

I ignored it because it wasn't relevant to the discussion we were having. We were talking about Taylor's P4P status and Ward/Abraham's victories over Miranda.

No one in the tournament has beaten anyone better than Jermaine Taylor. However, that doesn't necessarily make Froch the best fight in the tournament.

Well this is the entirety of what I wrote;


Maybe they have Froch as favourite becuase his meeting with Taylor is the only form guide we have, none of the others having met each other before.

KO'ing the former undisputed middleweight champion of the world, a fighter who has only ever been beaten by one other man (dodgy scorecards withstanding) is probably seen as great form going in to this.

Abraham at super middleweight is an unknown, also Miranda aside he's never fought an elite opponent.

Kessler lost to Calzaghe and has been pretty inactive since. Maybe he should be favourite, but its clear only Froch has a win over a p4p guy at this point.

I think everything I said above is accurate. Nowhere above did I claim Froch would win the tournament, or that I thought he was favourite, I just aimed to answer the question why the bookies made him favourite.

And the fact is he's the favourite for two reasons, one he's the British boy, and two because he's the only guy in this tournament who has a Grade A win over an elite fighter.

You can argue semantics about whether Taylor was not p4p for the past couple years but there is no question that he has been p4p, and p4p Top 5 no less, so he's an elite fighter, and none of the other fighters, not even Kessler have an elite opponent on their resume.

Taylor was unquestionable p4p when he beat Hopkins twice and was the undisputed middleweight champ. He's still not even 30 I believe and has only ever been beaten by one before. Knocking him out is the biggest win any of these 6 have, and the fact that Froch did it is why the bookies have him favourite,

So far from being irelevent, my posting was entirely to the point

You saying he wasn't p4p when Froch beat him is what is irelevent. My point is nobody else has beaten anyone better, and in a tournament that favours knockouts, Froch's proven ability to KO elite fighters, along with his British status has seen him (quite sensibly from the bookmakers point of view) to being made the betting favourite prior to the beginning of the tournament.

Of course all odds will change as the event goes on, but right now William Hill have him favourite for a reason, him winning could cost them the most money.

What in the sweet fuck are you talking about? You're bringing up things we haven't been discussing. We were talking about Abraham/Ward - Miranda and the fact that you (erroneously) claimed that Froch has a victory over a P4P fighter (nowhere in the post I responded to did you use the word former). Instead of responding to my reply, you threw up a red herring and embarked on a tangent.

Jermaine Taylor has never been P4P top 5 to the best of my knowledge. Even if he was, he was FAR removed from that status when he entered the ring with Froch. Still, he was comprehensively outboxing Froch before he gassed (like usual) and got stopped. He had not looked like a P4P fighter since the Wright fight (bar the first two rounds of the first Pavlik fight) and he was not a top 10 P4P fighter the night he entered the right with Froch.

The fact that Taylor used to be ranked in P4P lists means absolutely nothing in the context of Froch's victory. It was a good, exciting win over a faded, somewhat known and exposed fighter moving up in weight, nothing more or less.

Kessler's experience with Mundine and Calzaghe, and even Andrade, trumps Froch's victories over Pascal and Taylor in my opinion (though that's a debatable point). He's one of the most limited fighters in the tournament and while I think he chin, heart, workrate, and above average power will enable him to perform well, I do not think he will win.

[Kev]

I ignored it because it wasn't relevant to the discussion we were having. We were talking about Taylor's P4P status and Ward/Abraham's victories over Miranda.

No one in the tournament has beaten anyone better than Jermaine Taylor. However, that doesn't necessarily make Froch the best fight in the tournament.

Well this is the entirety of what I wrote;


Maybe they have Froch as favourite becuase his meeting with Taylor is the only form guide we have, none of the others having met each other before.

KO'ing the former undisputed middleweight champion of the world, a fighter who has only ever been beaten by one other man (dodgy scorecards withstanding) is probably seen as great form going in to this.

Abraham at super middleweight is an unknown, also Miranda aside he's never fought an elite opponent.

Kessler lost to Calzaghe and has been pretty inactive since. Maybe he should be favourite, but its clear only Froch has a win over a p4p guy at this point.

I think everything I said above is accurate. Nowhere above did I claim Froch would win the tournament, or that I thought he was favourite, I just aimed to answer the question why the bookies made him favourite.

And the fact is he's the favourite for two reasons, one he's the British boy, and two because he's the only guy in this tournament who has a Grade A win over an elite fighter.

You can argue semantics about whether Taylor was not p4p for the past couple years but there is no question that he has been p4p, and p4p Top 5 no less, so he's an elite fighter, and none of the other fighters, not even Kessler have an elite opponent on their resume.

Taylor was unquestionable p4p when he beat Hopkins twice and was the undisputed middleweight champ. He's still not even 30 I believe and has only ever been beaten by one before. Knocking him out is the biggest win any of these 6 have, and the fact that Froch did it is why the bookies have him favourite,

So far from being irelevent, my posting was entirely to the point

You saying he wasn't p4p when Froch beat him is what is irelevent. My point is nobody else has beaten anyone better, and in a tournament that favours knockouts, Froch's proven ability to KO elite fighters, along with his British status has seen him (quite sensibly from the bookmakers point of view) to being made the betting favourite prior to the beginning of the tournament.

Of course all odds will change as the event goes on, but right now William Hill have him favourite for a reason, him winning could cost them the most money.

What in the sweet fuck are you talking about? You're bringing up things we haven't been discussing. We were talking about Abraham/Ward - Miranda and the fact that you (erroneously) claimed that Froch has a victory over a P4P fighter (nowhere in the post I responded to did you use the word former). Instead of responding to my reply, you threw up a red herring and embarked on a tangent.

Jermaine Taylor has never been P4P top 5 to the best of my knowledge. Even if he was, he was FAR removed from that status when he entered the ring with Froch. Still, he was comprehensively outboxing Froch before he gassed (like usual) and got stopped. He had not looked like a P4P fighter since the Wright fight (bar the first two rounds of the first Pavlik fight) and he was not a top 10 P4P fighter the night he entered the right with Froch.

The fact that Taylor used to be ranked in P4P lists means absolutely nothing in the context of Froch's victory. It was a good, exciting win over a faded, somewhat known and exposed fighter moving up in weight, nothing more or less.

Kessler's experience with Mundine and Calzaghe, and even Andrade, trumps Froch's victories over Pascal and Taylor in my opinion (though that's a debatable point). He's one of the most limited fighters in the tournament and while I think he chin, heart, workrate, and above average power will enable him to perform well, I do not think he will win.

I definitely disagree with you on this point. Most people actually argue the two finest performances of Jermain Taylors career actually came in his two ko losses.

You are the one kidding yourself if you think Jermain Taylor is no longer an elite level fighter.

True he has been found wanting in the late rounds against two of the most dangerous and punishing fighters in the sport in Froch and Pavlik but you talk about him as if he's done, just a shell of a fighter etc.

He's still in his physical prime. He has the speed and skills to win the whole tournament, even now after two devastating ko losses.

Where he comes up short is stamina and in burning up too much nervous energy in fights which catches up with him in the late rounds.

Although that certainly has been damaging to his career, and is now a known weakness that his opponents are aware of it in no way reduces his actual boxing ability, or his ability to win the first 9 rounds of a fight.

You seem to be arguing that the Taylor that is fighting now is not as good as the Taylor that was fighting a couple years or so ago. I don't think there is any evidence to back up that statement.

He;s still every bit as good as he ever has been, he's just got some serious late stage issues in the championship rounds.

NOBODY is just going to walk through Jermain Taylor, and there's a good chance he could be ahead on the scorecards at the halfway point against all of the fighters.

True, I expect the likes of Abrham and Kessler to catch up with him eventually, but not because he is done as a fighter, or just a shell as you seem to be implying.

He's still one of the best fighters in the world, even after his losses. How many fighters have more natural skill and ability than Taylor in any weight class when he's on his game? Not many.

[CFH]

Well this is the entirety of what I wrote;


Maybe they have Froch as favourite becuase his meeting with Taylor is the only form guide we have, none of the others having met each other before.

KO'ing the former undisputed middleweight champion of the world, a fighter who has only ever been beaten by one other man (dodgy scorecards withstanding) is probably seen as great form going in to this.

Abraham at super middleweight is an unknown, also Miranda aside he's never fought an elite opponent.

Kessler lost to Calzaghe and has been pretty inactive since. Maybe he should be favourite, but its clear only Froch has a win over a p4p guy at this point.

I think everything I said above is accurate. Nowhere above did I claim Froch would win the tournament, or that I thought he was favourite, I just aimed to answer the question why the bookies made him favourite.

And the fact is he's the favourite for two reasons, one he's the British boy, and two because he's the only guy in this tournament who has a Grade A win over an elite fighter.

You can argue semantics about whether Taylor was not p4p for the past couple years but there is no question that he has been p4p, and p4p Top 5 no less, so he's an elite fighter, and none of the other fighters, not even Kessler have an elite opponent on their resume.

Taylor was unquestionable p4p when he beat Hopkins twice and was the undisputed middleweight champ. He's still not even 30 I believe and has only ever been beaten by one before. Knocking him out is the biggest win any of these 6 have, and the fact that Froch did it is why the bookies have him favourite,

So far from being irelevent, my posting was entirely to the point

You saying he wasn't p4p when Froch beat him is what is irelevent. My point is nobody else has beaten anyone better, and in a tournament that favours knockouts, Froch's proven ability to KO elite fighters, along with his British status has seen him (quite sensibly from the bookmakers point of view) to being made the betting favourite prior to the beginning of the tournament.

Of course all odds will change as the event goes on, but right now William Hill have him favourite for a reason, him winning could cost them the most money.

What in the sweet fuck are you talking about? You're bringing up things we haven't been discussing. We were talking about Abraham/Ward - Miranda and the fact that you (erroneously) claimed that Froch has a victory over a P4P fighter (nowhere in the post I responded to did you use the word former). Instead of responding to my reply, you threw up a red herring and embarked on a tangent.

Jermaine Taylor has never been P4P top 5 to the best of my knowledge. Even if he was, he was FAR removed from that status when he entered the ring with Froch. Still, he was comprehensively outboxing Froch before he gassed (like usual) and got stopped. He had not looked like a P4P fighter since the Wright fight (bar the first two rounds of the first Pavlik fight) and he was not a top 10 P4P fighter the night he entered the right with Froch.

The fact that Taylor used to be ranked in P4P lists means absolutely nothing in the context of Froch's victory. It was a good, exciting win over a faded, somewhat known and exposed fighter moving up in weight, nothing more or less.

Kessler's experience with Mundine and Calzaghe, and even Andrade, trumps Froch's victories over Pascal and Taylor in my opinion (though that's a debatable point). He's one of the most limited fighters in the tournament and while I think he chin, heart, workrate, and above average power will enable him to perform well, I do not think he will win.

I definitely disagree with you on this point. Most people actually argue the two finest performances of Jermain Taylors career actually came in his two ko losses.

You are the one kidding yourself if you think Jermain Taylor is no longer an elite level fighter.

True he has been found wanting in the late rounds against two of the most dangerous and punishing fighters in the sport in Froch and Pavlik but you talk about him as if he's done, just a shell of a fighter etc.

He's still in his physical prime. He has the speed and skills to win the whole tournament, even now after two devastating ko losses.

Where he comes up short is stamina and in burning up too much nervous energy in fights which catches up with him in the late rounds.

Although that certainly has been damaging to his career, and is now a known weakness that his opponents are aware of it in no way reduces his actual boxing ability, or his ability to win the first 9 rounds of a fight.

You seem to be arguing that the Taylor that is fighting now is not as good as the Taylor that was fighting a couple years or so ago. I don't think there is any evidence to back up that statement.

He;s still every bit as good as he ever has been, he's just got some serious late stage issues in the championship rounds.

NOBODY is just going to walk through Jermain Taylor, and there's a good chance he could be ahead on the scorecards at the halfway point against all of the fighters.

True, I expect the likes of Abrham and Kessler to catch up with him eventually, but not because he is done as a fighter, or just a shell as you seem to be implying.

He's still one of the best fighters in the world, even after his losses. How many fighters have more natural skill and ability than Taylor in any weight class when he's on his game? Not many.

Jermaine Taylor is an elite fighter (edit: depending on how loosely you define "elite"; he's certainly one of the best 20-30 fighters in the world), where have I contested that? He's not - in my opinion - the fighter he used to be and he is not a top 10 P4P fight, nor was he when he fought Froch.