Nacho Beristain: Marquez doesn't have the speed!

[Snakey]

I know this article is bogus, but are people forgetting Manny Pacquiao. Is faster than JMM, yet JMM was still very effective against Manny Pacquiao. Because JMM has excellent timing, speed isn't everything.

Kostya Tszyu always said that timing was key and even claimed that his powerful punch was the result of good timing

[the inbetweener]

you really cant compare a olympic sprinters muscles to a boxer. a boxer needs stamina sprinters has very little. marathon runner maybe and we all know how a marathon runners physique is.


you can gain weight by just eating a lot and get fat or eat and build up muscles. a boxers speed might be affected a little since you gained more weight.

My original point was on muscle mass affecting speed; I never said it was the ideal boxer's physique.

Also, your point is academic: A marathon is consistent running/fast jogging over 2.5 hours and a boxing match is quick bursts of staccato action throughout a round, as well as minute's rest between them. Of course stamina is required, but it is combined with speed and explosive power. This is why many more boxers these days don't do long jogs, preferring to weight train, do short, sharp sprints and spar.

I don't really understand how you can imply a fighter's speed can diminish if he gains lean mass (within reason). Is Pacquiao really any slower at 140 than he was at 122?

[mnmc10]

you really cant compare a olympic sprinters muscles to a boxer. a boxer needs stamina sprinters has very little. marathon runner maybe and we all know how a marathon runners physique is.


you can gain weight by just eating a lot and get fat or eat and build up muscles. a boxers speed might be affected a little since you gained more weight.

My original point was on muscle mass affecting speed; I never said it was the ideal boxer's physique.

Also, your point is academic: A marathon is consistent running/fast jogging over 2.5 hours and a boxing match is quick bursts of staccato action throughout a round, as well as minute's rest between them. Of course stamina is required, but it is combined with speed and explosive power. This is why many more boxers these days don't do long jogs, preferring to weight train, do short, sharp sprints and spar.

I don't really understand how you can imply a fighter's speed can diminish if he gains lean mass (within reason). Is Pacquiao really any slower at 140 than he was at 122?

have you tried to box before? or go at a heavy bag before? we are talking about lower weights here not heavies. heavies can go with spurts but not light weights. stamina is the biggest factor here, you compared muscle mass of 100m sprinters. they dont have the stamina to go 12 rounds. yes they have the speed but ony good for 10 seconds. muscle mass eats a lot of energy you only have speed if you have stamina. so yes bigger muscles will make you slower.

take a way long runs in boxing training and the boxer is doomed. pac lost some speed on heavier weights but good thing that he is still faster than anyone he fought. you will notice that pac is holding back a little more than before.

[generalbulldog]

you really cant compare a olympic sprinters muscles to a boxer. a boxer needs stamina sprinters has very little. marathon runner maybe and we all know how a marathon runners physique is.


you can gain weight by just eating a lot and get fat or eat and build up muscles. a boxers speed might be affected a little since you gained more weight.

My original point was on muscle mass affecting speed; I never said it was the ideal boxer's physique.

Also, your point is academic: A marathon is consistent running/fast jogging over 2.5 hours and a boxing match is quick bursts of staccato action throughout a round, as well as minute's rest between them. Of course stamina is required, but it is combined with speed and explosive power. This is why many more boxers these days don't do long jogs, preferring to weight train, do short, sharp sprints and spar.

I don't really understand how you can imply a fighter's speed can diminish if he gains lean mass (within reason). Is Pacquiao really any slower at 140 than he was at 122?

have you tried to box before? or go at a heavy bag before? we are talking about lower weights here not heavies. heavies can go with spurts but not light weights. stamina is the biggest factor here, you compared muscle mass of 100m sprinters. they dont have the stamina to go 12 rounds. yes they have the speed but ony good for 10 seconds. muscle mass eats a lot of energy you only have speed if you have stamina. so yes bigger muscles will make you slower.

take a way long runs in boxing training and the boxer is doomed. pac lost some speed on heavier weights but good thing that he is still faster than anyone he fought. you will notice that pac is holding back a little more than before.

Exactly and this is the main reason why lifting weights or actually I should say heavy weight lifting is discouraged in boxing. The famous trainer Angelo Dundee discourages weight lifting in boxing especially for HWs because stamina becomes a major issue with them. Look at guys like Frank Bruno who was into Heavy weight lifting, he had shit stamina, Mike Tyson when he came out of prison lifted weights (probably started in prison) he too began to have shit stamina, that was never the case early in his career. David Haye is another guy that loves to lift heavy weights, and guess what his stamina has come into question. Even Shane Mosely said it left him gassed in the later rounds of fights and he lost his fluidity.

I have to say yeah lifting heavy weights will get you that nice physique, but in boxing you're screwing yourself over.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Another good example of how speed is retained when moving up weights classes might be Roy Jones Jnr. He refused to use weights.
Instead, it was all push-up's & sit-up's.

He only touched weights for the 1st time when moving up to Heavyweight.

[the inbetweener]

have you tried to box before? or go at a heavy bag before? we are talking about lower weights here not heavies. heavies can go with spurts but not light weights. stamina is the biggest factor here, you compared muscle mass of 100m sprinters. they dont have the stamina to go 12 rounds. yes they have the speed but ony good for 10 seconds. muscle mass eats a lot of energy you only have speed if you have stamina. so yes bigger muscles will make you slower.

take a way long runs in boxing training and the boxer is doomed. pac lost some speed on heavier weights but good thing that he is still faster than anyone he fought. you will notice that pac is holding back a little more than before.

Okay, again, my point was about muscle mass affecting pure speed, not stamina; earlier posters in the thread said that Marquez would perhaps be slower.

What you appear to be saying is that a muscular fighter may be quick, but only momentarily because he will get tired. That's what conditioning's for. Correct nutrition, hiit and sparring (actually doing the sport itself is the best way to be conditioned for it), and those muscles could be fueled quite easily to go 12 rounds. It's about getting the right balance of fast twitch (speed, explosive power) and slow twitch (stamina) muscle fibres. It's all about the perfect balance, even at lower weights, not just stamina. No point in being able to jog around a ring for 36 mins, if you can't explode foward and land a powerful punch on your opponent's chin.

Exactly and this is the main reason why lifting weights or actually I should say heavy weight lifting is discouraged in boxing. The famous trainer Angelo Dundee discourages weight lifting in boxing especially for HWs because stamina becomes a major issue with them. Look at guys like Frank Bruno who was into Heavy weight lifting, he had shit stamina, Mike Tyson when he came out of prison lifted weights (probably started in prison) he too began to have shit stamina, that was never the case early in his career. David Haye is another guy that loves to lift heavy weights, and guess what his stamina has come into question. Even Shane Mosely said it left him gassed in the later rounds of fights and he lost his fluidity.

I have to say yeah lifting heavy weights will get you that nice physique, but in boxing you're screwing yourself over.

Heavy weight lifting doesn't necessarily equate massive muscle size. Perhaps you should give these a read:

Bodybuilding.com - Jamie Hale - Real Strength Training For Boxers!

Bodybuilding.com - Jamie Hale - Real Strength Training For Boxers: Part 2!

Simply, you can access the same systems for aerobic and anaeribic conditioning with specially designed sprints, namely tabatas, as well HIITs without losing power and strength (or ending up in a catabolic state having muscle depletion, be it lean or whatev) and still get the benefits of endurance. And have the explosiveness needed of the sprinter Re: accessing fast twitch muscle fibre. Much needed. Weights are very common to just about every boxer nowadays. Just need to be done properly (and diet surrounding it). Distance running is used more these days to shed weight then endurance. Variety is the key, to create muscle confusion to avoid plateau and continue to progress through barriers, in cardio and strength.

Distance is ok, but certainly shouldn't be the mainstay of a cardio training regime. Not any more. We have just learned a lot more. They are only a small part of a routine. It's a bit of an old wives tale that it is the staple of boxers, along with only bodyweight workouts. And that heavy lifting = mass = bad. I guess I just got sucked into it, didn't I.

I think a lot of people, and even boxers beginning tend to think of the old training regimes being what is optimal for the sport. But it simply isn't.

These are a lot of the points I was trying to make. Good post, pal.