Pavlik vs Espino Set For December 19, Top Rank PPV

[JazMerkin]

I actually give PW a hell of a lot of credit for taking this fight

There is nobody at 160 other than the dodger pavlik to fight. He could conceivably of used this to bolster his rep on HBO and put himself in with a sylvester or lorenzo who he would of just tore through.

Instead he`s fighting one of the top guys at 154

Except he's fighting him at 160. For a guy who's apparently a Welterweight, that's just bullshit.

Martinez has already said he has no probs with stepping up and feels it`ll suit him

If he fights the same pace he did against cintron he`ll more than make for a good fight. PW himself has only just moved up to 160 so he`ll hardly be the established guy come fight night

I do see PW winning a points decision (no way is he stopping martinez) but this will be far from a dead rubber and i expect sergio to be in it till the very end

I'm not saying it's an easy fight, but I'd just like it if Williams & his team stopped pretending that he's a welterweight who's had to come out of his weightclass to get fights, but rather a guy who's outgrown the weight.

They were saying they had him eating 4 full meals a day to not go under weight for Pavlik, well if that's the case why not fight Martinez at 154 where it would mean more & probably crown a lineal champ. If he says he's a MW, I've got no problem, but after this I don't want him bringing up this shit about how he's so avoided & had to leave 147 to find fights.

[HattonTheHammer]

Except he's fighting him at 160. For a guy who's apparently a Welterweight, that's just bullshit.

Martinez has already said he has no probs with stepping up and feels it`ll suit him

If he fights the same pace he did against cintron he`ll more than make for a good fight. PW himself has only just moved up to 160 so he`ll hardly be the established guy come fight night

I do see PW winning a points decision (no way is he stopping martinez) but this will be far from a dead rubber and i expect sergio to be in it till the very end

I'm not saying it's an easy fight, but I'd just like it if Williams & his team stopped pretending that he's a welterweight who's had to come out of his weightclass to get fights, but rather a guy who's outgrown the weight.

They were saying they had him eating 4 full meals a day to not go under weight for Pavlik, well if that's the case why not fight Martinez at 154 where it would mean more & probably crown a lineal champ. If he says he's a MW, I've got no problem, but after this I don't want him bringing up this shit about how he's so avoided & had to leave 147 to find fights.

The strange thing is they were making these comments before the 1st quintana fight and then when and took the rematch at the same weight

Think anyone can see williams is a natural middle and could easily move up again if needed, that whole 4meals a day thing has got to be b*llocks!

[Myk_Myk]

I don't see the reason to give the Williams camp any grief over wanting the fight at 160. They're holding all the cards and deserve to call the shots. Martinez is happy to get this opportunity and is not in a place with this fight to make demands. I know the apparent hypocrisy of the Williams camp is irritating, but this is boxing...

To be fair to Williams though, he's been training and eating with the goal of fighting at 160. It wouldn't be healthy for him, or to his advantage to turn around and try to come back down in a few weeks. The ball is in his court and it would be just stupid for him to bust his balls to come down to 154. Give him a break!

[JazMerkin]

I don't see the reason to give the Williams camp any grief over wanting the fight at 160. They're holding all the cards and deserve to call the shots. Martinez is happy to get this opportunity and is not in a place with this fight to make demands. I know the apparent hypocrisy of the Williams camp is irritating, but this is boxing...

To be fair to Williams though, he's been training and eating with the goal of fighting at 160. It wouldn't be healthy for him, or to his advantage to turn around and try to come back down in a few weeks. The ball is in his court and it would be just stupid for him to bust his balls to come down to 154. Give him a break!

Read what I wrote. My problem is with them saying that they have to feed him big meals multiple times a day just to not go under the weight. If that was really the case they could easily have made 154. I have no problem with the fight being at 160 as long as it means they stop calling him a welterweight & acting like he's out of his weightclass he isn't. The way they act it wouldn't be busting his balls to make the weight because he's not a NATURAL middleweight. The evidence would seem to suggest he is. I just want them to cut the shit, I know he's a popular fighter, I like him a lot, but that doesn't mean he gets a pass on talking shit.

[Myk_Myk]

I don't see the reason to give the Williams camp any grief over wanting the fight at 160. They're holding all the cards and deserve to call the shots. Martinez is happy to get this opportunity and is not in a place with this fight to make demands. I know the apparent hypocrisy of the Williams camp is irritating, but this is boxing...

To be fair to Williams though, he's been training and eating with the goal of fighting at 160. It wouldn't be healthy for him, or to his advantage to turn around and try to come back down in a few weeks. The ball is in his court and it would be just stupid for him to bust his balls to come down to 154. Give him a break!

Read what I wrote. My problem is with them saying that they have to feed him big meals multiple times a day just to not go under the weight. If that was really the case they could easily have made 154. I have no problem with the fight being at 160 as long as it means they stop calling him a welterweight & acting like he's out of his weightclass he isn't. The way they act it wouldn't be busting his balls to make the weight because he's not a NATURAL middleweight. The evidence would seem to suggest he is. I just want them to cut the shit, I know he's a popular fighter, I like him a lot, but that doesn't mean he gets a pass on talking shit.

I hear ya. I was responding to this part: "I've been critical of Williams of late, for dragging Martinez up to 160..." I agree there is a lot of BSing, but as I said it goes with the territory. I maintain that it would not have made any sense not make Martinez come up. You've got to try for every advantage and let egos take a back seat. Look what happened when ODLH wanted to make sure nobody would think he was picking on a smaller (Pac) man and didn't even rehydrate after weigh-in, and no I'm not saying he would have won, but still...

Rantcatrat, Martinez is 5' 11", started at WW, and moved up to LM. Clottey is 5' 8", started at LW, and moved up to WW. It would have been unrealistic to ask Clottley to come up to 160. Obviously it wasn't for Martinez, as he took the fight!

[Rantcatrat]

I don't see the reason to give the Williams camp any grief over wanting the fight at 160. They're holding all the cards and deserve to call the shots. Martinez is happy to get this opportunity and is not in a place with this fight to make demands. I know the apparent hypocrisy of the Williams camp is irritating, but this is boxing...

To be fair to Williams though, he's been training and eating with the goal of fighting at 160. It wouldn't be healthy for him, or to his advantage to turn around and try to come back down in a few weeks. The ball is in his court and it would be just stupid for him to bust his balls to come down to 154. Give him a break!

Read what I wrote. My problem is with them saying that they have to feed him big meals multiple times a day just to not go under the weight. If that was really the case they could easily have made 154. I have no problem with the fight being at 160 as long as it means they stop calling him a welterweight & acting like he's out of his weightclass he isn't. The way they act it wouldn't be busting his balls to make the weight because he's not a NATURAL middleweight. The evidence would seem to suggest he is. I just want them to cut the shit, I know he's a popular fighter, I like him a lot, but that doesn't mean he gets a pass on talking shit.

I hear ya. I was responding to this part: "I've been critical of Williams of late, for dragging Martinez up to 160..." I agree there is a lot of BSing, but as I said it goes with the territory. I maintain that it would not have made any sense not make Martinez come up. You've got to try for every advantage and let egos take a back seat. Look what happened when ODLH wanted to make sure nobody would think he was picking on a smaller (Pac) man and didn't even rehydrate after weigh-in, and no I'm not saying he would have won, but still...

Rantcatrat, Martinez is 5' 11", started at WW, and moved up to LM. Clottey is 5' 8", started at LW, and moved up to WW. It would have been unrealistic to ask Clottley to come up to 160. Obviously it wasn't for Martinez, as he took the fight!

Martinez is a career 154 guy. He has fought at 154 since the early 2000's. Fighting at 160 is definitely an advantage for Paul - that we can both agree on. We can also both give Martinez big time props for taking this fight at 160 because he's a 154 guy. Also, the fact that Martinez started at welterweight and is now fighting Paul at middleweight is even more testiment to the fact that the fight being at 160 is a big advantage for Paul.

I'm not sure you understood the point I was making about Clottey. Williams offered to fight Clottey at 154 (not 160) after the Pavlik fight fell through. Clottey didn't accept the fight at 154. Clearly, Williams could have been able to make 154 if he offered to fight Clottey at 154 during the same time period. Yet, Williams wouldn't fight Martinez at 154? You pointed out the reason in your post - because it is to Paul's advantage to fight Martinez at 160 rather than 154.

[Myk_Myk]

I'm not sure you understood the point I was making about Clottey. Williams offered to fight Clottey at 154 (not 160) after the Pavlik fight fell through. Clottey didn't accept the fight at 154. Clearly, Williams could have been able to make 154 if he offered to fight Clottey at 154 during the same time period. Yet, Williams wouldn't fight Martinez at 154? You pointed out the reason in your post - because it is to Paul's advantage to fight Martinez at 160 rather than 154.

No I understood perfectly. My point is it would have been pointless to offer Clottey a fight at 160; which is evidenced by the fact that he didn't even take the fight at 154. I'm sure Williams could have come down to 154 to fight either man. And I'm sure the Williams camp felt more comfortable about coming down to 154 for Clottey (who would have had to come up even then) than for the rangier framed Martinez; who has been at 154, as you said, since 200. The fact that Martinez did agree to come up to 160, proves that the Williams camp knows how play their cards, and my whole point is that he shouldn't be disparaged for doing so, excepting all the BS from his camp we've already discussed.

As for Pavlik it certainly does look bad, but then again on the surface of it, he had to fight to keep his belts. That article Diane posted makes it sound like they're still waiting for his hand to heal and even his camp looks to be unsure about his state. We'll just have to see what happens after this fight. If he and Williams both win, there should be no more excuses.

[Rantcatrat]

I don't see the reason to give the Williams camp any grief over wanting the fight at 160. They're holding all the cards and deserve to call the shots. Martinez is happy to get this opportunity and is not in a place with this fight to make demands. I know the apparent hypocrisy of the Williams camp is irritating, but this is boxing...

To be fair to Williams though, he's been training and eating with the goal of fighting at 160. It wouldn't be healthy for him, or to his advantage to turn around and try to come back down in a few weeks. The ball is in his court and it would be just stupid for him to bust his balls to come down to 154. Give him a break!

Williams offered to fight Clottey at 154. Why not Martinez? It is because he holds all the cards like you said not because he was training for 160 and 154 would be too difficult to make. Williams isn't the only one who stacks advantages like that, but he isn't immune to it either.

[Master]

Cut Pavlik some slack, he has issues and needs an easy fight and keep his title. He should fight Williams next. He is not Mayweather.

[JazMerkin]

Cut Pavlik some slack, he has issues and needs an easy fight and keep his title. He should fight Williams next. He is not Mayweather.

You're right Gary Lockett, Marco Antonio Rubio & Miguel Espino are far more worthy fights than Oscar De La Hoya at 154, Ricky Hatton & Juan Manuel Marquez

No one would give him shit about having an easy fight if he hadn't bailed on 3 in the past 6 months only to decide to fight a guy off the contender.

[Rantcatrat]

Cut Pavlik some slack, he has issues and needs an easy fight and keep his title. He should fight Williams next. He is not Mayweather.

You're right Gary Lockett, Marco Antonio Rubio & Miguel Espino are far more worthy fights than Oscar De La Hoya at 154, Ricky Hatton at 147 & Juan Manuel Marquez at 147

No one would give him shit about having an easy fight if he hadn't bailed on 3 in the past 6 months only to decide to fight a guy off the contender.

That not's entirely fair either. Prior to Lockett, he fought JT twice and the second time he went up five pounds to 165. He made a title defense against Gary Lockett and then he went up ten pounds to fight a top five p4p boxer in Bernard Hopkins. Since Hopkins, he only fought once against a top ten middleweight even if Rubio isn't a tremendous talent. I'll give him the pass on Espino if he fights a Williamsesque caliber fighter next. But, it's the last pass.