Should Bush and Blair be tried for war crimes?

[VictorCharlie]

You were taking the Apocalypse Now approach to combat.
You were criticising their methods and saying international law shouldnt really matter in cases where your opponent doesn't adhere to them.
There are only two conclusions to draw from that, you either stick to international law because you think it is right and proper to do so, hence superior. If you criticise your opponent for their behaviour what else are people to think?

I study military history. Perhaps US/UK leaders should do the same, they seem to have learnt nothing from Vietnam.


The point is this, you can not win against these people.
If their culture changes it will come from within and not by your or our direct meddling.

As I asked before who is "these people" again? And what do you mean by the Apcalyspe Now approach? My approach is that it shouldn't be up to someone with no skin in the game such as yourself to dictate how war should be fought. Let the commanders on the battlefield make these decisions. I'm not sure what you mean by criticize my opponent. Are you saying you support and endorse the tactics used by AQI/ShiaMilitias/Taliban?

They are fighting as they should perfectly.

Raid Uncovers al-Qaida Network of Child Suicide Bombers in Iraq | Iraq Updates

Female suicide bombings in Iraq: Why the recent surge? | csmonitor.com

Eastday-Wave of coordinated attacks in Iraq kills 127

Taliban gunmen shooting couple dead for adultery caught on camera - Telegraph

CNN.com - U.S. documents alleged Taliban atrocities - November 23, 2001

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iraq Shias 'attack' Sunni mosques

"Perfectly"? Is Hitler your idea of a great father figure as well?

[stebs]

This has nothing to do with a trial, but we're not over their just randomly shooting civilians.





An interesting letter in the Australian Shooter Magazine this week, which
I quote:




"If you consider that there has been an average of 160,000
troops in the Iraq Theater of operations during the past 22 months, and a
total of 2112 deaths, that gives a firearm death rate of 60 per 100,000
soldiers."


"The firearm death rate in Washington, D.C. Is 80.6 per 100,000 for the same period.


That means you are about 25 per cent more likely to be shot and killed in
the US capital, which has some of the strictest gun control laws in the
US, than you are in Iraq "

[Gandalf]

This has nothing to do with a trial, but we're not over their just randomly shooting civilians.





An interesting letter in the Australian Shooter Magazine this week, which
I quote:




"If you consider that there has been an average of 160,000
troops in the Iraq Theater of operations during the past 22 months, and a
total of 2112 deaths, that gives a firearm death rate of 60 per 100,000
soldiers."


"The firearm death rate in Washington, D.C. Is 80.6 per 100,000 for the same period.


That means you are about 25 per cent more likely to be shot and killed in
the US capital, which has some of the strictest gun control laws in the
US, than you are in Iraq "

I would argue that this is more a reflection on the use of firearms being somewhat out of control in the US. How about the numbers of Iraqi civilans killed for every one US soldier? We have pretty much everyone except Lyle agreeing that the Iraq war was illegitimate. Not a healthy reflection on the US no matter how you want to try and spin things.

[El Kabong]

I would argue that this is more a reflection on the use of firearms being somewhat out of control in the US. How about the numbers of Iraqi civilans killed for every one US soldier? We have pretty much everyone except Lyle agreeing that the Iraq war was illegitimate. Not a healthy reflection on the US no matter how you want to try and spin things.

#1 Firearms are not out of control in the US, FACT

#2 Iraq was going to get screwed with one way or another and the only thing I disagree with is the strategy, we fought with one hand tied behind our backs and we have continued to do so.

Why don't you civilian loving assholes check out what happened to civilians in World War I, World War II, Korea, and Vietnam and if Iraq or Afghanistan even comes CLOSE to any one of those then I'll concede my view and declare you the winner of this debate

[Howlin Mad Missy]

Lyle, it's not about winning a debate. People are dying.

[El Kabong]

Lyle, it's not about winning a debate. People are dying.

People die every day, if it's about stopping people from dying then good luck

WTF with you guys and your view of guns and gun laws in the US?!?! They don't hand them out at the fair, you do have to pass background checks of course that's the law and laws CAN be broken but then we are talking about ILLEGAL gun ownership and not LEGAL gun ownership and if you can make the case that LEGAL gun ownership is bad then fine, but legal gun owners are responsible people. "OOooooh we don't have guns in the UK/Quebec/South Korea etc and it's WONDERFUL there is NO violence ever"

[Howlin Mad Missy]

Lyle, it's not about winning a debate. People are dying.

People die every day, if it's about stopping people from dying then good luck

WTF with you guys and your view of guns and gun laws in the US?!?! They don't hand them out at the fair, you do have to pass background checks of course that's the law and laws CAN be broken but then we are talking about ILLEGAL gun ownership and not LEGAL gun ownership and if you can make the case that LEGAL gun ownership is bad then fine, but legal gun owners are responsible people. "OOooooh we don't have guns in the UK/Quebec/South Korea etc and it's WONDERFUL there is NO violence ever"

So why did you invade Afghanistan and Iraq since you weren't there to help the natives?

[Nameless]

Lyle, it's not about winning a debate. People are dying.

People die every day, if it's about stopping people from dying then good luck

WTF with you guys and your view of guns and gun laws in the US?!?! They don't hand them out at the fair, you do have to pass background checks of course that's the law and laws CAN be broken but then we are talking about ILLEGAL gun ownership and not LEGAL gun ownership and if you can make the case that LEGAL gun ownership is bad then fine, but legal gun owners are responsible people. "OOooooh we don't have guns in the UK/Quebec/South Korea etc and it's WONDERFUL there is NO violence ever"

IN Virginia, it takes 16 years old to buy legally a gun.
AS for the fairs, you'Re wrong. You can buy whatever you want (or almost) without problems. Gun show - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia or VPC - Gun Shows in America - Section Four or ATF agents discuss Eastern Washington's illegal gun trade | Northwest News - The News Tribune | Seattle-Tacoma News, Weather, Sports, Jobs, Homes and Cars | South Puget Sound's Destination
ONe of my old friend (60 years old now) got out of one of these shows in Arizona with an automatic ruger machine gun. this is absolutely out of control and no wonder why the USA are the steadiest democracy with the highest murder via guns (around 14 000 if I am correct), do you think it's normal? I can understand that you're a bit conservative and stuff Lyle, I am all down with it, however, it is quite hard to argue agaisnt the gun problems in your country.

[Nameless]

I would argue that this is more a reflection on the use of firearms being somewhat out of control in the US. How about the numbers of Iraqi civilans killed for every one US soldier? We have pretty much everyone except Lyle agreeing that the Iraq war was illegitimate. Not a healthy reflection on the US no matter how you want to try and spin things.

#1 Firearms are not out of control in the US, FACT

#2 Iraq was going to get screwed with one way or another and the only thing I disagree with is the strategy, we fought with one hand tied behind our backs and we have continued to do so.

Why don't you civilian loving assholes check out what happened to civilians in World War I, World War II, Korea, and Vietnam and if Iraq or Afghanistan even comes CLOSE to any one of those then I'll concede my view and declare you the winner of this debate

You're right, not so long ago, anybody could buy as much ammo as he wanted at the K-Mart. Anybody can buy guns at a gun fair without any questions asked and with limited age ratio. Do you really think it is normal?

As for IRaq and Vietnam/Corea and the second world war, these are very different circumstances. The 2 first WW were legits, no need to explain why. They haven't been created on some stupid lies and people did pay the price for (those who kind of started it). Viet-Nam just like Iraq was pure bullshit and those responsible for it should be trialed the same damn way.

[Gandalf]

I would argue that this is more a reflection on the use of firearms being somewhat out of control in the US. How about the numbers of Iraqi civilans killed for every one US soldier? We have pretty much everyone except Lyle agreeing that the Iraq war was illegitimate. Not a healthy reflection on the US no matter how you want to try and spin things.

#1 Firearms are not out of control in the US, FACT

#2 Iraq was going to get screwed with one way or another and the only thing I disagree with is the strategy, we fought with one hand tied behind our backs and we have continued to do so.

Why don't you civilian loving assholes check out what happened to civilians in World War I, World War II, Korea, and Vietnam and if Iraq or Afghanistan even comes CLOSE to any one of those then I'll concede my view and declare you the winner of this debate

1. Gun crimes are out of control, the US has far too many guns and people dying because of guns. I live in a city where there are no guns. NOBODY gets shot here. You don't need guns. I find most of the arguments supporting the case for firearms to be a rather sad reflection on a disintegrated US society than anything else.

2. I don't understand this argument at all. You offer no attempt to justify the illegal invasion.

You have invaded a country for no legitimate reason besides geo-political influence and access to oil. People have every right to be agrieved that you have invaded for that and then gone on to wipe out upwards of half a million people. You had no right to be there in the first place. Like I have said before, watch out as it all comes back to bite you. America is LESS safe because of these conquests. You now have the intellectuals who are frowning upon American policy and you also have a lot more people who have lost loved ones who see America as the big bad devil. The threat of terrorist attacks will have been increased by this.

[Howlin Mad Missy]

As I asked before who is "these people" again? And what do you mean by the Apcalyspe Now approach? My approach is that it shouldn't be up to someone with no skin in the game such as yourself to dictate how war should be fought. Let the commanders on the battlefield make these decisions. I'm not sure what you mean by criticize my opponent. Are you saying you support and endorse the tactics used by AQI/ShiaMilitias/Taliban?

They are fighting as they should perfectly.

Raid Uncovers al-Qaida Network of Child Suicide Bombers in Iraq | Iraq Updates

Female suicide bombings in Iraq: Why the recent surge? | csmonitor.com

Eastday-Wave of coordinated attacks in Iraq kills 127

Taliban gunmen shooting couple dead for adultery caught on camera - Telegraph

CNN.com - U.S. documents alleged Taliban atrocities - November 23, 2001

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iraq Shias 'attack' Sunni mosques

"Perfectly"? Is Hitler your idea of a great father figure as well?

Blinkered thinking - I didn't say I supported them you muppet, I don't support the US or UK either!

As I said perfectly for them - do you expect them to line in battle lines to face you? You clearly do not understand the people you are facing. Exactly the same as vietnam and exactly the same reason you won't 'win'.

[VictorCharlie]

They are fighting as they should perfectly.

Raid Uncovers al-Qaida Network of Child Suicide Bombers in Iraq | Iraq Updates

Female suicide bombings in Iraq: Why the recent surge? | csmonitor.com

Eastday-Wave of coordinated attacks in Iraq kills 127

Taliban gunmen shooting couple dead for adultery caught on camera - Telegraph

CNN.com - U.S. documents alleged Taliban atrocities - November 23, 2001

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iraq Shias 'attack' Sunni mosques

"Perfectly"? Is Hitler your idea of a great father figure as well?

Blinkered thinking - I didn't say I supported them you muppet, I don't support the US or UK either!

As I said perfectly for them - do you expect them to line in battle lines to face you? You clearly do not understand the people you are facing. Exactly the same as vietnam and exactly the same reason you won't 'win'.

I asked if you support them and you say they are fighting perfectly then get pissed when you look like a moron?? Make up your mind. And I think I have a much better understanding of both who I am fighting and how to conduct COIN than you ever will.

[Howlin Mad Missy]

Raid Uncovers al-Qaida Network of Child Suicide Bombers in Iraq | Iraq Updates

Female suicide bombings in Iraq: Why the recent surge? | csmonitor.com

Eastday-Wave of coordinated attacks in Iraq kills 127

Taliban gunmen shooting couple dead for adultery caught on camera - Telegraph

CNN.com - U.S. documents alleged Taliban atrocities - November 23, 2001

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iraq Shias 'attack' Sunni mosques

"Perfectly"? Is Hitler your idea of a great father figure as well?

Blinkered thinking - I didn't say I supported them you muppet, I don't support the US or UK either!

As I said perfectly for them - do you expect them to line in battle lines to face you? You clearly do not understand the people you are facing. Exactly the same as vietnam and exactly the same reason you won't 'win'.

I asked if you support them and you say they are fighting perfectly then get pissed when you look like a moron?? Make up your mind. And I think I have a much better understanding of both who I am fighting and how to conduct COIN than you ever will.

saying they are fighting perfectly against you is not the same as saying I support them the only one getting aggressive here is you, you should cut down on the hormone filled red meat.

And I'm not such a moron, I didn't join the army.

[El Kabong]

Blinkered thinking - I didn't say I supported them you muppet, I don't support the US or UK either!

As I said perfectly for them - do you expect them to line in battle lines to face you? You clearly do not understand the people you are facing. Exactly the same as vietnam and exactly the same reason you won't 'win'.

You're a woman and you can't find it in yourself to be on the side of the US and the UK I mean it's not that difficult Missy, one side of the war kills anyone and anything and holds nothing but their own sacred and the other side is the US and the UK. One side is wrong and one side is right (again the US and UK) and there is 0 inbetween the terrorists have seen to that, what did Daniel Pearl do to become a casualty of this war? What did those people in the towers do to be victims of this war? I can tell you all a girl has to do in Afghanistan to be killed or injured is just show her face....but I guess you have chosen to just no support that instead of being against it altogether.

I do wonder Missy, how will that peace and love serve you if you're ever face to face with a terrorist?

[Howlin Mad Missy]

who the fuck is the US to tell anyone how to run their country let alone dictate moral values to!