Malignaggi accuses Pac of Steroid abuse..

[Diane]

Me and Danny were listening to that radio show when it was live on Sunday night, and everyone in the chat room was poking fun at him, and asking for someone to translate, because he's talking so damn fast.

They also had Lou DiBella on the show after Paulie, and they asked him about it, and one of his comments was...

"Manny has people in his camp who are well-known to be involved in steroids".

Then Ric asked "Alex Ariza"? To which Lou said...

"You know, i don't even want to get into all of that. Let's just say that it raises a lot of questions".

Here is someone else accusing Manny as well.

Boxing News - BRC - Two of boxing's top echelon fighters, two of the sport's"good guys" are cheaters!.. by Michael Palitoni


I'm not saying it's true, just passing along information.

[OumaFan]

Killer, the point I'm making is that weigh in pic from when he was at 130 he had dried out some, he came into that second JMM fight weighing 144 at the night of the fight. Now when he goes to weigh in at the official weigh in he comes in at about the same weight, 142-144. He's just not drying out any now.

I don't remember what JMM weighed the night of the second Pacquaio fight but I am pretty sure he didn't put on 14 pounds, Manny had started to outgrow the weight while JMM hadn't.

Now of course this doesn't mean he hadn't been on roids before. But I don't see a big difference from the time of the second Marquez fight to now, he's just not drying out now or at least barely drying out.

[killersheep]

Killer, the point I'm making is that weigh in pic from when he was at 130 he had dried out some, he came into that second JMM fight weighing 144 at the night of the fight. Now when he goes to weigh in at the official weigh in he comes in at about the same weight, 142-144. He's just not drying out any now.

I don't remember what JMM weighed the night of the second Pacquaio fight but I am pretty sure he didn't put on 14 pounds, Manny had started to outgrow the weight while JMM hadn't.

Now of course this doesn't mean he hadn't been on roids before. But I don't see a big difference from the time of the second Marquez fight to now, he's just not drying out now or at least barely drying out.

Right the difference between then and now is about 15 pounds at bruce lee body fat levels in both weigh-ins. JMM went from 130 (his weight in the second PAC fight) to 142 so 12 lbs. Like I said I have to assume that the testing is legit and PAC is on the up and up. BUT, at the same time I can understand where Paulie is coming from and he has a valid point of suspicion no?

[generalbulldog]

ok it's only 15 lbs. in 20 months but still..............

official weights

3/15/08 - 129


11/14/09 - 144


Compared to JMM who looked washed out with water weight (or maybe pee pee weight)
9/19/09 - 142



I mean, I can see where Paulie would question this.

A fighter's fight night weight is more of his true weight because in this era everyone below the HW division rehydrates to almost their natural weight on fight night.

His last fight in March of '08 at Super Featherweight.


14 months later against Hatton at Junior Welterweight, 2 divisions higher.
And he's only 3 pounds heavier from when he fought Marquez.


And although HBO didn;t have the unofficial fight night weight it was reported that Manny was 149 on fight night with Miguel Cotto. So in 20 months from 3 divisions lower to welterweight he put on 4 pounds, not 17 or 15 pounds.



And if we want to go all the way back in early '04 when he fought Marquez at Featherweight he was 137 on fight night, so in 5 1/2 years he put on 12 pounds, hardly what I call conclusive evidence he's on steroids. And he was 25, and now at 31 he's 12 pounds heavier and his body has filled out.

[Kev]

Killer, the point I'm making is that weigh in pic from when he was at 130 he had dried out some, he came into that second JMM fight weighing 144 at the night of the fight. Now when he goes to weigh in at the official weigh in he comes in at about the same weight, 142-144. He's just not drying out any now.

I don't remember what JMM weighed the night of the second Pacquaio fight but I am pretty sure he didn't put on 14 pounds, Manny had started to outgrow the weight while JMM hadn't.

Now of course this doesn't mean he hadn't been on roids before. But I don't see a big difference from the time of the second Marquez fight to now, he's just not drying out now or at least barely drying out.

Right the difference between then and now is about 15 pounds at bruce lee body fat levels in both weigh-ins. JMM went from 130 (his weight in the second PAC fight) to 142 so 12 lbs. Like I said I have to assume that the testing is legit and PAC is on the up and up. BUT, at the same time I can understand where Paulie is coming from and he has a valid point of suspicion no?

I think Ouma is actually arguing that Manny hasn't put nearly as much muscle as that. The weigh in to a fight is two days before the actual fight. Manny used to have to cut weight and dehydrate to make the limit, as evidenced by the fact he would rehydrate well over 140.

So he could move up to light welter without actually gaining any muscle mass in theory, he's simply not having to dehydrate at the weigh in, and therefore both his weigh in weight and actual fight night weight are approximately the same.

My guess is Manny has packed on maybe 6 or 7 lbs of muscle, and the rest is just him not dehydrating.

As to the photo's that were put up of Manny and Marquez at superfeather and then welter, well Marquez's body looks shit compared to Manny's in both pics.

Manny just has a better physique than Marquez and always has. So Marquez looking worse at welter isn't unusual to me, he's simply never been as muscular or defined as Manny.

[killersheep]

ok it's only 15 lbs. in 20 months but still..............

official weights

3/15/08 - 129


11/14/09 - 144


Compared to JMM who looked washed out with water weight (or maybe pee pee weight)
9/19/09 - 142



I mean, I can see where Paulie would question this.

A fighter's fight night weight is more of his true weight because in this era everyone below the HW division rehydrates to almost their natural weight on fight night.

His last fight in March of '08 at Super Featherweight.


14 months later against Hatton at Junior Welterweight, 2 divisions higher.
And he's only 3 pounds heavier from when he fought Marquez.


And although HBO didn;t have the unofficial fight night weight it was reported that Manny was 149 on fight night with Miguel Cotto. So in 20 months from 3 divisions lower to welterweight he put on 4 pounds, not 17 or 15 pounds.



And if we want to go all the way back in early '04 when he fought Marquez at Featherweight he was 137 on fight night, so in 5 1/2 years he put on 12 pounds, hardly what I call conclusive evidence he's on steroids. And he was 25, and now at 31 he's 12 pounds heavier and his body has filled out.

I see what you're saying and it's valid, BUT the official weigh-in is more controlled. The fight-night weights could include clothes, shoes, gloves, full bowels and varying degrees of rehydration.

[JazMerkin]

Me and Danny were listening to that radio show when it was live on Sunday night, and everyone in the chat room was poking fun at him, and asking for someone to translate, because he's talking so damn fast.

They also had Lou DiBella on the show after Paulie, and they asked him about it, and one of his comments was...

"Manny has people in his camp who are well-known to be involved in steroids".

Then Ric asked "Alex Ariza"? To which Lou said...

"You know, i don't even want to get into all of that. Let's just say that it raises a lot of questions".

Here is someone else accusing Manny as well.

Boxing News - BRC - Two of boxing's top echelon fighters, two of the sport's"good guys" are cheaters!.. by Michael Palitoni


I'm not saying it's true, just passing along information.

Interesting that he mentions MaxCell. I heard about some of their stuff from these MMA fighters I trained with whilst I worked in Brussels. They said that it was really good for improving your co-ordination, reflexes etc when fighting & said they could get me some. I'm not the most knowledeable guy about supplements & generally stick to just whey protein when training, so I tried to look into it on the net & couldn't find nothing about any of their actual products & the only mentions of the bioscience company were some government pages. I obviously decided to pass, as it seemed a bit fishy. I can't say for sure whether the product they would have given me would have been illegal, but it is odd that there's nothing out there on the web about their stuff.

Anyway, as for Pacquiao taking it, there's no proof, but it can hardly just be put down to crazy old Floyd Sr anymore. I can understand why people are saying it, based on those pictures though, but I'd rather sit in the belief the Pacquiao isn't on anything. Hell, I'm still one of the people who really wants to believe that Shane really didn't know what was in there, so it's going to take more for me to believe that he's cheated

[OumaFan]

Killer, the point I'm making is that weigh in pic from when he was at 130 he had dried out some, he came into that second JMM fight weighing 144 at the night of the fight. Now when he goes to weigh in at the official weigh in he comes in at about the same weight, 142-144. He's just not drying out any now.

I don't remember what JMM weighed the night of the second Pacquaio fight but I am pretty sure he didn't put on 14 pounds, Manny had started to outgrow the weight while JMM hadn't.

Now of course this doesn't mean he hadn't been on roids before. But I don't see a big difference from the time of the second Marquez fight to now, he's just not drying out now or at least barely drying out.

Right the difference between then and now is about 15 pounds at bruce lee body fat levels in both weigh-ins. JMM went from 130 (his weight in the second PAC fight) to 142 so 12 lbs. Like I said I have to assume that the testing is legit and PAC is on the up and up. BUT, at the same time I can understand where Paulie is coming from and he has a valid point of suspicion no?

I think Ouma is actually arguing that Manny hasn't put nearly as much muscle as that. The weigh in to a fight is two days before the actual fight. Manny used to have to cut weight and dehydrate to make the limit, as evidenced by the fact he would rehydrate well over 140.

So he could move up to light welter without actually gaining any muscle mass in theory, he's simply not having to dehydrate at the weigh in, and therefore both his weigh in weight and actual fight night weight are approximately the same.

My guess is Manny has packed on maybe 6 or 7 lbs of muscle, and the rest is just him not dehydrating.

As to the photo's that were put up of Manny and Marquez at superfeather and then welter, well Marquez's body looks shit compared to Manny's in both pics.

Manny just has a better physique than Marquez and always has. So Marquez looking worse at welter isn't unusual to me, he's simply never been as muscular or defined as Manny.

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

For what its worth, I'm not even really arguing that he isn't on them, he has to be a candidate along with Bernard, Roy during his move to heavy, and on and on. I wouldn't be surprised by anything and Mosley knew

All I'm saying is I don't think his body change since he moved from 130 up is as dramatic as some would say.

Its clear he was outgrowing 130 and its clear he's not really having to work to make weight anymore, probably not even having to work that hard to make 140, whereas before he was out and out cutting to make 130. He weighed 144 the night of the second Marquez fight, he probably weighed 150 at most the night of the Cotto fight. I can't remember the exact number though.

[OumaFan]

Okay so maybe he was 149 the night of the Cotto fight. I really have to start reading people's posts.

[JazMerkin]

Right the difference between then and now is about 15 pounds at bruce lee body fat levels in both weigh-ins. JMM went from 130 (his weight in the second PAC fight) to 142 so 12 lbs. Like I said I have to assume that the testing is legit and PAC is on the up and up. BUT, at the same time I can understand where Paulie is coming from and he has a valid point of suspicion no?

I think Ouma is actually arguing that Manny hasn't put nearly as much muscle as that. The weigh in to a fight is two days before the actual fight. Manny used to have to cut weight and dehydrate to make the limit, as evidenced by the fact he would rehydrate well over 140.

So he could move up to light welter without actually gaining any muscle mass in theory, he's simply not having to dehydrate at the weigh in, and therefore both his weigh in weight and actual fight night weight are approximately the same.

My guess is Manny has packed on maybe 6 or 7 lbs of muscle, and the rest is just him not dehydrating.

As to the photo's that were put up of Manny and Marquez at superfeather and then welter, well Marquez's body looks shit compared to Manny's in both pics.

Manny just has a better physique than Marquez and always has. So Marquez looking worse at welter isn't unusual to me, he's simply never been as muscular or defined as Manny.

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

For what its worth, I'm not even really arguing that he isn't on them, he has to be a candidate along with Bernard, Roy during his move to heavy, and on and on. I wouldn't be surprised by anything and Mosley knew

All I'm saying is I don't think his body change since he moved from 130 up is as dramatic as some would say.

Its clear he was outgrowing 130 and its clear he's not really having to work to make weight anymore, probably not even having to work that hard to make 140, whereas before he was out and out cutting to make 130. He weighed 144 the night of the second Marquez fight, he probably weighed 150 at most the night of the Cotto fight. I can't remember the exact number though.

I think Jones almost certainly was from the jump he did, but I'd say B-Hop isn't simply for how his body looks at different weights. He tends to look just a little paunchy to me at the LHW limit when compared to his MW days & his fights at 170. I don't think that many guys are on them. Only Roy & Shane definitely were imo (& Toney but he obviously washed up down with barrels of beer) & I'll still cling to the conviction that Shane didn't know. Even if he almost certainly did

[holmcall]

Pualie has now affirmed his stature as a stone cold head case.

[killersheep]

Right the difference between then and now is about 15 pounds at bruce lee body fat levels in both weigh-ins. JMM went from 130 (his weight in the second PAC fight) to 142 so 12 lbs. Like I said I have to assume that the testing is legit and PAC is on the up and up. BUT, at the same time I can understand where Paulie is coming from and he has a valid point of suspicion no?

I think Ouma is actually arguing that Manny hasn't put nearly as much muscle as that. The weigh in to a fight is two days before the actual fight. Manny used to have to cut weight and dehydrate to make the limit, as evidenced by the fact he would rehydrate well over 140.

So he could move up to light welter without actually gaining any muscle mass in theory, he's simply not having to dehydrate at the weigh in, and therefore both his weigh in weight and actual fight night weight are approximately the same.

My guess is Manny has packed on maybe 6 or 7 lbs of muscle, and the rest is just him not dehydrating.

As to the photo's that were put up of Manny and Marquez at superfeather and then welter, well Marquez's body looks shit compared to Manny's in both pics.

Manny just has a better physique than Marquez and always has. So Marquez looking worse at welter isn't unusual to me, he's simply never been as muscular or defined as Manny.

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

For what its worth, I'm not even really arguing that he isn't on them, he has to be a candidate along with Bernard, Roy during his move to heavy, and on and on. I wouldn't be surprised by anything and Mosley knew

All I'm saying is I don't think his body change since he moved from 130 up is as dramatic as some would say.

Its clear he was outgrowing 130 and its clear he's not really having to work to make weight anymore, probably not even having to work that hard to make 140, whereas before he was out and out cutting to make 130. He weighed 144 the night of the second Marquez fight, he probably weighed 150 at most the night of the Cotto fight. I can't remember the exact number though.

It's a little awkward having a debate with someone that sees both sides of the argument............stop it

Like I said I believe PAC is doing everything legit. And it's duly noted that has been rehydrating less. All I'm saying is I can see where Malignaggi is coming from.

[OumaFan]

Yeah I don't see a reason so much to speculate about Bernard by the look of his body but I'm surprised there isn't slightly more speculation about him just cause, well, he shouldn't be able to still be this good. But then again I think he probably worked harder than almost anybody and he hasn't taken a lot of wear and tear over the years due to his style.

But if he was a baseball player, and still one of the best at what 45, 46, however old he is there would be speculation almost certainly.

[OumaFan]

I think Ouma is actually arguing that Manny hasn't put nearly as much muscle as that. The weigh in to a fight is two days before the actual fight. Manny used to have to cut weight and dehydrate to make the limit, as evidenced by the fact he would rehydrate well over 140.

So he could move up to light welter without actually gaining any muscle mass in theory, he's simply not having to dehydrate at the weigh in, and therefore both his weigh in weight and actual fight night weight are approximately the same.

My guess is Manny has packed on maybe 6 or 7 lbs of muscle, and the rest is just him not dehydrating.

As to the photo's that were put up of Manny and Marquez at superfeather and then welter, well Marquez's body looks shit compared to Manny's in both pics.

Manny just has a better physique than Marquez and always has. So Marquez looking worse at welter isn't unusual to me, he's simply never been as muscular or defined as Manny.

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

For what its worth, I'm not even really arguing that he isn't on them, he has to be a candidate along with Bernard, Roy during his move to heavy, and on and on. I wouldn't be surprised by anything and Mosley knew

All I'm saying is I don't think his body change since he moved from 130 up is as dramatic as some would say.

Its clear he was outgrowing 130 and its clear he's not really having to work to make weight anymore, probably not even having to work that hard to make 140, whereas before he was out and out cutting to make 130. He weighed 144 the night of the second Marquez fight, he probably weighed 150 at most the night of the Cotto fight. I can't remember the exact number though.

It's a little awkward having a debate with someone that sees both sides of the argument............stop it

Like I said I believe PAC is doing everything legit. And it's duly noted that has been rehydrating less. All I'm saying is I can see where Malignaggi is coming from.

Youngblood called me wishy washy the other day when I argued for and against fucking that American girl who killed that British girl in Italy. Maybe I am getting wishy washy. I don't know. But she was not bad and yet a killer.

I would laugh for days if Paulie tested positive. Not cause of this. Just cause he's powderpuff.

[JazMerkin]

I think Ouma is actually arguing that Manny hasn't put nearly as much muscle as that. The weigh in to a fight is two days before the actual fight. Manny used to have to cut weight and dehydrate to make the limit, as evidenced by the fact he would rehydrate well over 140.

So he could move up to light welter without actually gaining any muscle mass in theory, he's simply not having to dehydrate at the weigh in, and therefore both his weigh in weight and actual fight night weight are approximately the same.

My guess is Manny has packed on maybe 6 or 7 lbs of muscle, and the rest is just him not dehydrating.

As to the photo's that were put up of Manny and Marquez at superfeather and then welter, well Marquez's body looks shit compared to Manny's in both pics.

Manny just has a better physique than Marquez and always has. So Marquez looking worse at welter isn't unusual to me, he's simply never been as muscular or defined as Manny.

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

For what its worth, I'm not even really arguing that he isn't on them, he has to be a candidate along with Bernard, Roy during his move to heavy, and on and on. I wouldn't be surprised by anything and Mosley knew

All I'm saying is I don't think his body change since he moved from 130 up is as dramatic as some would say.

Its clear he was outgrowing 130 and its clear he's not really having to work to make weight anymore, probably not even having to work that hard to make 140, whereas before he was out and out cutting to make 130. He weighed 144 the night of the second Marquez fight, he probably weighed 150 at most the night of the Cotto fight. I can't remember the exact number though.

It's a little awkward having a debate with someone that sees both sides of the argument............stop it

Like I said I believe PAC is doing everything legit. And it's duly noted that has been rehydrating less. All I'm saying is I can see where Malignaggi is coming from.

I agree, we've got a reputation to uphold around here. At least this thread will resume normal service once the masses get on here tomorrow.

I basically agree with most of what you & Ouma have said. Ouma I do agree that his age is a factor, but then when you look at his earlier career, he was a different fighter, he's adapted his style in the same way that other fighters like Oscar or PBF have adapted to going up in weight.

I'm still going to keep backing Pacquiao, I always thought he was a big guy in a small weight-class, but with how he maintains that ripped look & the way his power & speed have carried up there were always going to be questions. But, until they prove something I'll stay a believer. I don't follow baseball, so I'm yet to become as cynical as the Americans on here about sportstars.