A neutrals perspective on the Manny debate ..........

[hakkai619]

You may just consider me another member of the "anti-pac brigade", as I happen to be a Mayweather fan, but regardless here's my two cents, on your two cents, put em together, and we get four cents. Believe it or not, I like Manny. I agree, he's done wonderful things for the sport of boxing. I think that his well-publicized refusal to random blood-testing may even be one of the last great things he does for the sport, as I believe the sport needs better testing methods. I'll touch on that later.

Firstly, you labeled PEDs (performance enhancing drugs) all under the same catagory, where "what you increase in strength, you also lose a little in stamina, especially cardio". This is most definitely not true. You are probably thinking of HGH, and while that's a possibility for the weight gain, there are other things like EPO (which Conte said was very likely in Pac's case) which increase your stamina. Whether you like to believe it or not, if used correctly, these drugs (and others) do give you a competitive advantage over your opponents, hence why commissions test for them. My point is that the testing procedures that they have in place at the moment, don't do their job, and as technology improves, so will the drugs, the problem will only get worse.

Now, label me a Pac-hater or whatever, but I would also like to believe that Pacquiao has achieved these things clean. I am a boxing fan before I am ever a fan of a particular fighter (esp Mayweather). If the tables were turned I would be saying exactly the same thing to him.
"innocent until proven guilty?" Manny isn't letting us go to the proving grounds/trail. The only way to prove himself not guilty is with a trail, a trail of random blood testing, rather than a lawsuit against Floyd Sr.

Again, I'm a boxing fan before I'm ever a Mayweather fan. Boxing needs better testing methods in place (probably as much or more than any other sport).

A good article on your interactions with Pacquiao and his team, which gives a bit of psychological insight, but still, Manny is refusing to fight because of the blood tests. The situation hasn't changed.

Nice thoughts man. I do also believe in BTOD and innocent until proven guilty and also would love pacquiao to take the tests. I mean who wouldn't wanna see mayweather piss in his pants from thinking "Holy shit this guys for real. He did those things with skill alone"

[Gandalf]

Good posts in this thread.

I'm of the view that it boils down to 2 demands. One fighter accepted the conditions (weight penalty) and the other outright refused (random drugs test). We can say it boils down to misinformation or Manny having too much pride, but to turn down $40m over a contractual demand which is nothing more than a random blood test, is strange. There is no real reason why Manny cannot go through with it especially if Mayweather will do so too. There is no doubt that we are dealing with fighters who have bloated egos. But Mayweather was actually the one willing to cede something in order to make the fight. Manny has scoffed his nose looking for mega showdowns with Malignaggi and Foreman. Pac trying to sue his way out of this situation, makes him look even worse. All people want is a fight, not a pointless courtroom showdown. Manny's refusal to take the tests has hurt him more than the words of anybody. Nobody listened when Mayweather Snr spoke all those months ago. It's only now Manny has refused a test and started to take legal action that people are really discussing the drug rumours.

[Jimmy G-Force]

Good posts in this thread.

I'm of the view that it boils down to 2 demands. One fighter accepted the conditions (weight penalty) and the other outright refused (random drugs test). We can say it boils down to misinformation or Manny having too much pride, but to turn down $40m over a contractual demand which is nothing more than a random blood test, is strange.There is no real reason why Manny cannot go through with it especially if Mayweather will do so too. There is no doubt that we are dealing with fighters who have bloated egos. But Mayweather was actually the one willing to cede something in order to make the fight. Manny has scoffed his nose looking for mega showdowns with Malignaggi and Foreman. Pac trying to sue his way out of this situation, makes him look even worse. All people want is a fight, not a pointless courtroom showdown. Manny's refusal to take the tests has hurt him more than the words of anybody. Nobody listened when Mayweather Snr spoke all those months ago. It's only now Manny has refused a test and started to take legal action that people are really discussing the drug rumours.

To be honest Miles, I think one demand is par for the course with regards the weight issue, it had to be stipulated after the stunt Floyd pulled with Marquez. It was also pure fact Mayweather came in over the limit. I do concede the penalty is pretty outrageous, but it is what it is. You have to make the limit full stop. How the Cotto fight was for a title a 145lbs is beyond me. The other demand is a slur on Manny and everything he has achieved to date, and most certainly not a fact. As for Manny's court action, it was the only way to go, and I'm sure anyone would have done the same to clear their name. It's not ideal for us as fans, but the bottom line is you have to put yourself in Manny's position. Just think for one moment Manny is completely clean, and just imagine how you would feel with all these allegations. Especially after how hard he has genuinely worked to get to this lofty perch of which he currently resides.

I have no doubt that when Manny decides giving the random test is the only way, then he will concede to the demand, and everything will be above board. But like I said in my initial post, getting Manny to do something he is not 100% with is like pulling teeth. The on/off saga that went with his fight with Rick was ridiculous, and all over such petty things. In all the years being around Rick I have never seen anything like it, and very little came to light in the media. The proposed fight with Paulie or Yuri is nothing more than a smokescreen, and typical in the bargaining stakes, I've seen it many times in negotiations. Manny is one stubborn man, there is no question about that. How much of that comes from interests around him I'm not sure. I am sure this is a battle of the ego's though and nothing more.

[generalbulldog]

Well someone here said that Victor Conte stated Pac was using EPO for his stamina. I disagree with that part. The thread starter is right on 1 thing and that is Pac never had a problem with stamina. I remember ICB started a thread and posted a video of Pac fighting for the WBC FLyweight championship when he was 19, although he was still very raw, you can still see the agression and him continously throwing 80-90 punches per round until the opponent was knockout. And at that time Roach and Ariza were not part of his team. Unless someone here is going to suggest those Fillipino cornermen were supplying him with EPO at that time?

[Gandalf]

Good posts in this thread.

I'm of the view that it boils down to 2 demands. One fighter accepted the conditions (weight penalty) and the other outright refused (random drugs test). We can say it boils down to misinformation or Manny having too much pride, but to turn down $40m over a contractual demand which is nothing more than a random blood test, is strange.There is no real reason why Manny cannot go through with it especially if Mayweather will do so too. There is no doubt that we are dealing with fighters who have bloated egos. But Mayweather was actually the one willing to cede something in order to make the fight. Manny has scoffed his nose looking for mega showdowns with Malignaggi and Foreman. Pac trying to sue his way out of this situation, makes him look even worse. All people want is a fight, not a pointless courtroom showdown. Manny's refusal to take the tests has hurt him more than the words of anybody. Nobody listened when Mayweather Snr spoke all those months ago. It's only now Manny has refused a test and started to take legal action that people are really discussing the drug rumours.

To be honest Miles, I think one demand is par for the course with regards the weight issue, it had to be stipulated after the stunt Floyd pulled with Marquez. I do concede the penalty is pretty outrageous, but it is what it is. You have to make the limit full stop. How the Cotto fight was for a title a 145lbs is beyond me. The other demand is a slur on Manny and everything he has achieved to date. As for Manny's court action, it was the only way to go, and I'm sure anyone would have done the same to clear their name. It's not ideal for us as fans, but the bottom line is you have to put yourself in Manny's position. Just think for one moment Manny is completely clean, and just imagine how you would feel with all these allegations. Especially after how hard he has genuinely worked to get to this lofty perch of which he currently resides.

I have no doubt that when Manny decides giving the random test is the only way, then he will concede to the demand, and everything will be above board. But like I said in my initial post, getting Manny to do something he is not 100% with is like pulling teeth. The on/off saga that went with his fight with Rick was ridiculous, and all over such petty things. In all the years being around Rick I have never seen anything like it, and very little came to light in the media. The proposed fight with Paulie or Yuri is nothing more than a smokescreen, and typical in the bargaining stakes, I've seen it many times in negotiations. Manny is one stubborn man, there is no question about that. How much of that comes from interests around him I'm not sure. I am sure this is a battle of the ego's though and nothing more.

I agree with the weight stipulation too. Mayweathers behaviour with Marquez was outrageous. Making weight should not really be an issue, but Mayweather did make it an issue through his actions. I was very critical of Mayweather at the time.

Actually, this current situation is one of the very few times that I have been able to look at things from Mayweathers perspective. I'm usually irritated by him, but on this one point (the drugs test) I do think he has a case. It is unfair to accuse Manny of being on drugs, which some have done. After all, there is no real evidence. But having said that I can see the merits in random drug testing. On an ethical standpoint and looking at it from Mayweathers perspective, if there are loopholes, isn't it a good thing to erase all those loopholes and just make sure? Looking at it like that, I don't see any reason to refuse. If Manny had just agreed with no hullaballoo we would have had a fight made and this whole thing probably wouldn't have blown into the issue that it has become.

I agree that what we have is a couple of ego's at loggerheads and it has just become plain annoying for the fans. Hopefully something will get worked out because this fight is what boxing needs right now. Would be a great shame to let it pass over what on the surface seems like such a quibble.

[Jimmy G-Force]

Actually, this current situation is one of the very few times that I have been able to look at things from Mayweathers perspective. I'm usually irritated by him, but on this one point (the drugs test) I do think he has a case. It is unfair to accuse Manny of being on drugs, which some have done. After all, there is no real evidence. But having said that I can see the merits in random drug testing. On an ethical standpoint and looking at it from Mayweathers perspective, if there are loopholes, isn't it a good thing to erase all those loopholes and just make sure? Looking at it like that, I don't see any reason to refuse. If Manny had just agreed with no hullaballoo we would have had a fight made and this whole thing probably wouldn't have blown into the issue that it has become.

I agree that what we have is a couple of ego's at loggerheads and it has just become plain annoying for the fans. Hopefully something will get worked out because this fight is what boxing needs right now. Would be a great shame to let it pass over what on the surface seems like such a quibble.

I so wish that was true Miles. Call me a cynic, but from my experiences with both Mayweather and Pacman, this was always a fight that was going to be a million miles away from being signed smoothly. Regardless of the testing issue, there is a long way to go before these two agree amicably and sign on the dotted line.

Your dead right about the fight though, it's a must have for the sport of boxing, never mind the fans. In 25 years of following the sport, I've not known of a bigger fight. The question about the era's greatest fighter can not be answered until these two meet. I also think when it finally does get made, they will be more than one fight, but I'll stop there as I'm getting waaayyy ahead of myself.