One More Question

[Jimmy G-Force]

Can you guys answer me one more question? Let's assume Pacquiao (as he should have) decided to take the tests demanded by Floyd, would that have convinced you that Manny never had been on steroids in the past? Is there anything that would convince you Manny didn't take drugs in the past?

See me personally, I don't think so unless Manny whupped Floyd after passing all of Floyd's tests, but even then that could be attributed to Manny just being better. The truth is there is no way absent admission by the fighter himself or proof by the supplier that a fighter took roids in the past. There just isn't. If he had taken the tests, the motivation behind it could have just been the coin. 20M is enough money to convince me, especially if I was brought up dirt poor in a third-world country, to fight Mike Tyson in his prime. I'd be clean for one fight for 20M, take that to the bank. I may have juiced my whole way up, but for 20M, I'd be clean for three months, believe that.

That is one reason why this whole thing is odd to me. Why not just stay clean for one fight, make the most cheddar you've ever seen, and go back to juicing if that is what you were doing? What would one clean fight prove? It can't be pride in winning because you've already lost and even if you lose, your fans can rightfully or wrongly chalk it up to the fact Floyd is a bigger man. Not to mention, we all know Floyd isn't knocking you out so you won't be damaged goods, you can land one or two more big fights and make another 10M - 15M. Actually, in loss it may even be easier to land more big fights because you don't seem as invincible anymore.

As an aside, the funny thing about all of this to me is that prior to the juicing allegations, I thought Manny was fighting an uphill battle anyway; Floyd would win and win by a wide UD. Wins over ODLH, Hatton, and Cotto didn't do enough to convince me that Manny would be able to find a way to get inside Floyd's reach. In fact, given the hype surrounding Manny after his win over Cotto, I thought the odds were too good to pass up, and even though I'm not a betting man per se, I was planning to lay down a large wad of cash of Floyd. I thought Manny hadn't faced a slick fighter like Floyd before and it would lead to his fall from grace. I'm pretty sure many of you felt the same way. This is all before the Roids allegations.

Firstly, the first highlighted statement applies to any fighter that has never tested positive for PEDS.

The second highlighted question answers itself for me. Of course he could stay clean and take the money on offer, and that says everything. It's not about the money. PED's will not have a massive bearing on how this fight goes anyway. The bottom line is it will be down to each respective fighters talents. PED's would only ever give you a slight advantage, natural talent, strategy and skill-set make up 95% of this puglistic argument. Again, Manny wants to be the man, and Mayweather wants to be the man. As far as I'm concerned, both fighters ego's are as repsonsible for this mess as each others.

Floyd had no real reason to bring this up in the first place. If he is as good as he thinks he is, then he beats Manny on PEDS on not. Instead Floyd, with no evidence has tarnished a great fighters reputation, and thrown the sport of boxing under a spotlight it really shouldnt be occupying. Floyds actions tell's me he is jealous and wary of Manny. I agree with Manny's stance in a way, Floyd has decided that he is the almighty judge and jury on this debacle. For him to decide that the rules of the sport need changing to suit him is plain wrong.

Either way, should this fight happen, I think I'll still be rooting for Floyd.

But, even if you test clean, it doesn't prove or disprove what has happened in the past. The only way to know someone never juiced was if they were always tested in the way Floyd demanded. And because of Floyd's allegations, even if Manny tested clean, won't there always be doubt by some people?

What you're saying is that if it is not about the money and not about the pride, it must be about ego? Makes sense.

Yeah definatley, and that is so wrong for Floyd to create that doubt without any evidence. It's criminal at best.

[Kirkland Laing]

Firstly, the first highlighted statement applies to any fighter that has never tested positive for PEDS.

The second highlighted question answers itself for me. Of course he could stay clean and take the money on offer, and that says everything. It's not about the money. PED's will not have a massive bearing on how this fight goes anyway. The bottom line is it will be down to each respective fighters talents. PED's would only ever give you a slight advantage, natural talent, strategy and skill-set make up 95% of this puglistic argument. Again, Manny wants to be the man, and Mayweather wants to be the man. As far as I'm concerned, both fighters ego's are as repsonsible for this mess as each others.

Floyd had no real reason to bring this up in the first place. If he is as good as he thinks he is, then he beats Manny on PEDS on not. Instead Floyd, with no evidence has tarnished a great fighters reputation, and thrown the sport of boxing under a spotlight it really shouldnt be occupying. Floyds actions tell's me he is jealous and wary of Manny. I agree with Manny's stance in a way, Floyd has decided that he is the almighty judge and jury on this debacle. For him to decide that the rules of the sport need changing to suit him is plain wrong.

Either way, should this fight happen, I think I'll still be rooting for Floyd.

But, even if you test clean, it doesn't prove or disprove what has happened in the past. The only way to know someone never juiced was if they were always tested in the way Floyd demanded. And because of Floyd's allegations, even if Manny tested clean, won't there always be doubt by some people?

What you're saying is that if it is not about the money and not about the pride, it must be about ego? Makes sense.

Yeah definatley, and that is so wrong for Floyd to create that doubt without any evidence. It's criminal at best.

Manny could have flattened Floyd's ego and won a massive psychological victory by just agreeing to take the tests like it was no big deal when Floyd first asked him to. Manny would have been saying yeah, I'm clean and I'm going to beat you up clean like I beat Cotto and shove your steroid allegations down your throat. But he basically copied the actions of every steroid cheat that's been caught in America over the last decade. The outraged denials, the lawsuits, the deaperate avoidance of any kind of random testing even when there was a massive contract on the table waiting to be signed if he agreed to it.

Floyd didn't create the doubt, Manny did. There are other boxing people other than the Mayweathers who have questioned whether what Manny is doing is legitimate and those are just the ones who've gone public about it. And all Manny had to do to dispel the doubt (and earn up to $60 million in the process) was agree to take random tests. It was the perfect opportunity to shut the doubters up. Instead all his actions since being asked to take random testing (back in mid-November) are the actions of a guilty man.

[Rantcatrat]

But, even if you test clean, it doesn't prove or disprove what has happened in the past. The only way to know someone never juiced was if they were always tested in the way Floyd demanded. And because of Floyd's allegations, even if Manny tested clean, won't there always be doubt by some people?

What you're saying is that if it is not about the money and not about the pride, it must be about ego? Makes sense.

Yeah definatley, and that is so wrong for Floyd to create that doubt without any evidence. It's criminal at best.

Manny could have flattened Floyd's ego and won a massive psychological victory by just agreeing to take the tests like it was no big deal when Floyd first asked him to. Manny would have been saying yeah, I'm clean and I'm going to beat you up clean like I beat Cotto and shove your steroid allegations down your throat. But he basically copied the actions of every steroid cheat that's been caught in America over the last decade. The outraged denials, the lawsuits, the deaperate avoidance of any kind of random testing even when there was a massive contract on the table waiting to be signed if he agreed to it.

Floyd didn't create the doubt, Manny did. There are other boxing people other than the Mayweathers who have questioned whether what Manny is doing is legitimate and those are just the ones who've gone public about it. And all Manny had to do to dispel the doubt (and earn up to $60 million in the process) was agree to take random tests. It was the perfect opportunity to shut the doubters up. Instead all his actions since being asked to take random testing (back in mid-November) are the actions of a guilty man.

Kirkland, you didn't really respond to my post or you did it in a round-about way. Are you saying that if Pacquiao had agreed to take the test for this one fight versus Mayweather and tested clean, win or lose, it would have erased any doubt you had of his using steroids in the past? How would testing clean for the fight with Mayweather change your opinion of his taking any drugs for the Cotto fight? He didn't undergo the tests that Mayweather is requiring of him in that fight as far as I know. Even if he tested clean as Mayweather demanded, maybe this was just a big pay day and it was worth it to not take drugs for one fight.

I totally agree, as I said in my post, that he should have taken the tests because we would have been able to watch Mayweather v. Pacquiao, but I don't see how it would dispel any doubt you had about Pacquiao taking drugs in the past.

The conclusion I am trying to draw is that Pac not taking the tests for this fight is odd because its not like testing clean for this fight means he didn't take drugs on his way up the weight class ladder when taking drugs would have been seemingly more beneficial. And this was his biggest pay day. He's been fighting at 145 now for a little while.

Let's say Pacquiao had been guilty of taking drugs in the past and had agreed to take the tests, even though logically it shouldn't clear his name, for yourself and other's like you, it may have cleared his name and in the process he could have made 20M. So, why not just test clean for this fight especially if he's been guilty in the past?

[Kirkland Laing]

Yeah definatley, and that is so wrong for Floyd to create that doubt without any evidence. It's criminal at best.

Manny could have flattened Floyd's ego and won a massive psychological victory by just agreeing to take the tests like it was no big deal when Floyd first asked him to. Manny would have been saying yeah, I'm clean and I'm going to beat you up clean like I beat Cotto and shove your steroid allegations down your throat. But he basically copied the actions of every steroid cheat that's been caught in America over the last decade. The outraged denials, the lawsuits, the deaperate avoidance of any kind of random testing even when there was a massive contract on the table waiting to be signed if he agreed to it.

Floyd didn't create the doubt, Manny did. There are other boxing people other than the Mayweathers who have questioned whether what Manny is doing is legitimate and those are just the ones who've gone public about it. And all Manny had to do to dispel the doubt (and earn up to $60 million in the process) was agree to take random tests. It was the perfect opportunity to shut the doubters up. Instead all his actions since being asked to take random testing (back in mid-November) are the actions of a guilty man.

Kirkland, you didn't really respond to my post or you did it in a round-about way. Are you saying that if Pacquiao had agreed to take the test for this one fight versus Mayweather and tested clean, win or lose, it would have erased any doubt you had of his using steroids in the past? How would testing clean for the fight with Mayweather change your opinion of his taking any drugs for the Cotto fight? He didn't undergo the tests that Mayweather is requiring of him in that fight as far as I know. Even if he tested clean as Mayweather demanded, maybe this was just a big pay day and it was worth it to not take drugs for one fight.

I totally agree, as I said in my post, that he should have taken the tests because we would have been able to watch Mayweather v. Pacquiao, but I don't see how it would dispel any doubt you had about Pacquiao taking drugs in the past.

The conclusion I am trying to draw is that Pac not taking the tests for this fight is odd because its not like testing clean for this fight means he didn't take drugs on his way up the weight class ladder when taking drugs would have been seemingly more beneficial. And this was his biggest pay day. He's been fighting at 145 now for a little while.

Let's say Pacquiao had been guilty of taking drugs in the past and had agreed to take the tests, even though logically it shouldn't clear his name, for yourself and other's like you, it may have cleared his name and in the process he could have made 20M. So, why not just test clean for this fight especially if he's been guilty in the past?

It'd be hard to judge against Mayweather because I'd expect him to lose to Mayweather either way. If he fought Mayweather and looked like a blown-up powderpuff version of a guy who'd lost to a shot featherweight five years ago it'd confirm to me he was a cheater. But if he was dinging Floyd with hard punches occasionally and had taken random tests I'd be inclined to believe the last five years had been legit. Ideally I'd like to see his next fight to be against JMM at 135 with daily tests so there's no way he could cheat. I'd love to see that.

The thing that gets me about Manny is the Cotto fight. I can accept he's got better as a boxer over the last few years. I can accept that DLH and Hatton were nowhere near their previous standards. But to beat Cotto up like that, to be hurting him nearly every time he landed, for an ex-106 pounder, no fucking way.

I think he won't fight Floyd without his roids because he'd get the shit beaten out of him for twelve rounds. He'd get beaten so badly that nobody would be talking about Manny the all time great and everybody would be talking about Floyd. The only chance he has in that fight is to be able to do a lot of damage when he does land, he needs the power that the PEDs give him. At this stage of his career he's going to make big money from all his fights, he does films etc. back home. He can afford to give up twenty or thirty mill and keep his reputation, losing to Floyd would shatter it.

[Kirkland Laing]

[continued] So, while you might not think of EPO being all that appealing to boxers, that's what allegedly Mosely was doing out of BALCO. And that makes perfectly good sense to us, because that's going to give you the kind of endurance you need in a late round in a hotly-contested and fought boxing match.

It's also going to greatly improve your ability to train. So there is also this sort of recovery training issue and what's it going to do for you on fight night. And it's significant.

[fan johnny]

[continued] So, while you might not think of EPO being all that appealing to boxers, that's what allegedly Mosely was doing out of BALCO. And that makes perfectly good sense to us, because that's going to give you the kind of endurance you need in a late round in a hotly-contested and fought boxing match.

It's also going to greatly improve your ability to train. So there is also this sort of recovery training issue and what's it going to do for you on fight night. And it's significant.

Dr. Johnny has noting but innuendo and half truths in his blog and fails to present any tangible scientific facts. He says nothing to back up claim that Mayweather knows a thing or two. Nothing! Take a look at the comments.

A very convoluted interview from the good Dr. Tygart. It means nothing as far as random blood being needed to find HGH that urine testing couldn't do. I have already addressed the issue of HGH in other posts. There has never (Yes, NEVER!) been a positive blood test for HGH of an athlete. It doesn't work. The experts have claimed to the Anti-doping committees and congress that the reasons it hasn't worked so far is because the test is being applied wrong. (i.e. at competitions) Hence we now have random testing out of competition. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/sp...1baseball.html
Conclusion: The Scientist made a lot of money selling this product and can't back it up. So now we have random testing. We now have scientist that have resulted to fishing.

There is a test for HGH that may have more success which is a urine test.
CeresNano

Given that it is extremely difficult to catch a cheater using the HGH, then why doesn't the good doctor recommend the use of the urine test? The subject is a single event where there are only two combatants. It doesn't warrant an Olympic-Style setup for 1000's of competitors that are screened for irregularities and then once someone as an irregularity further testing is applied. The point is the interview he is giving is more geared toward selling the testing procedures for boxing as a whole and not specifically for this one fight.

Now for EPO. If EPO is used, it's purpose is to increase the oxygen capacity of blood. It would do absolutely no good to use EPO during training and then cycle off it for the fight. It would actually have a counter effect. So there is absolutely no reason that testing 30 days before and immediately following the fight that EPO couldn't be detected if used. In addition EPO can be tested for using urine which is actually a direct method rather than just blood profiling which is an indirect method. Drug Tests Used in Sports - Sports and Drugs - ProCon.org

So check it out.

If your going to dig an experts link out, try to do one that doesn't have a hard on for Mayweather or strong ties to GBP. They appear to have altier motives and tend not to give complete answers.

[UKPH]

[continued] So, while you might not think of EPO being all that appealing to boxers, that's what allegedly Mosely was doing out of BALCO. And that makes perfectly good sense to us, because that's going to give you the kind of endurance you need in a late round in a hotly-contested and fought boxing match.

It's also going to greatly improve your ability to train. So there is also this sort of recovery training issue and what's it going to do for you on fight night. And it's significant.

Dr. Johnny has noting but innuendo and half truths in his blog and fails to present any tangible scientific facts. He says nothing to back up claim that Mayweather knows a thing or two. Nothing! Take a look at the comments.

A very convoluted interview from the good Dr. Tygart. It means nothing as far as random blood being needed to find HGH that urine testing couldn't do. I have already addressed the issue of HGH in other posts. There has never (Yes, NEVER!) been a positive blood test for HGH of an athlete. It doesn't work. The experts have claimed to the Anti-doping committees and congress that the reasons it hasn't worked so far is because the test is being applied wrong. (i.e. at competitions) Hence we now have random testing out of competition. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/sp...1baseball.html
Conclusion: The Scientist made a lot of money selling this product and can't back it up. So now we have random testing. We now have scientist that have resulted to fishing.

There is a test for HGH that may have more success which is a urine test.
CeresNano

Given that it is extremely difficult to catch a cheater using the HGH, then why doesn't the good doctor recommend the use of the urine test? The subject is a single event where there are only two combatants. It doesn't warrant an Olympic-Style setup for 1000's of competitors that are screened for irregularities and then once someone as an irregularity further testing is applied. The point is the interview he is giving is more geared toward selling the testing procedures for boxing as a whole and not specifically for this one fight.

Now for EPO. If EPO is used, it's purpose is to increase the oxygen capacity of blood. It would do absolutely no good to use EPO during training and then cycle off it for the fight. It would actually have a counter effect. So there is absolutely no reason that testing 30 days before and immediately following the fight that EPO couldn't be detected if used. In addition EPO can be tested for using urine which is actually a direct method rather than just blood profiling which is an indirect method. Drug Tests Used in Sports - Sports and Drugs - ProCon.org

So check it out.

If your going to dig an experts link out, try to do one that doesn't have a hard on for Mayweather or strong ties to GBP. They appear to have altier motives and tend not to give complete answers.

Thanks for the additional info....yup we have to give the balance between the lines

Besides negotiation fell off. If the commision implement wheter it will be updated or not, for their test it should be the base for both fighters and be respected and fight, simple as that.

[Kirkland Laing]

[continued] So, while you might not think of EPO being all that appealing to boxers, that's what allegedly Mosely was doing out of BALCO. And that makes perfectly good sense to us, because that's going to give you the kind of endurance you need in a late round in a hotly-contested and fought boxing match.

It's also going to greatly improve your ability to train. So there is also this sort of recovery training issue and what's it going to do for you on fight night. And it's significant.

Dr. Johnny has noting but innuendo and half truths in his blog and fails to present any tangible scientific facts. He says nothing to back up claim that Mayweather knows a thing or two. Nothing! Take a look at the comments.

A very convoluted interview from the good Dr. Tygart. It means nothing as far as random blood being needed to find HGH that urine testing couldn't do. I have already addressed the issue of HGH in other posts. There has never (Yes, NEVER!) been a positive blood test for HGH of an athlete. It doesn't work. The experts have claimed to the Anti-doping committees and congress that the reasons it hasn't worked so far is because the test is being applied wrong. (i.e. at competitions) Hence we now have random testing out of competition. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/sp...1baseball.html
Conclusion: The Scientist made a lot of money selling this product and can't back it up. So now we have random testing. We now have scientist that have resulted to fishing.

There is a test for HGH that may have more success which is a urine test.
CeresNano

Given that it is extremely difficult to catch a cheater using the HGH, then why doesn't the good doctor recommend the use of the urine test? The subject is a single event where there are only two combatants. It doesn't warrant an Olympic-Style setup for 1000's of competitors that are screened for irregularities and then once someone as an irregularity further testing is applied. The point is the interview he is giving is more geared toward selling the testing procedures for boxing as a whole and not specifically for this one fight.

Now for EPO. If EPO is used, it's purpose is to increase the oxygen capacity of blood. It would do absolutely no good to use EPO during training and then cycle off it for the fight. It would actually have a counter effect. So there is absolutely no reason that testing 30 days before and immediately following the fight that EPO couldn't be detected if used. In addition EPO can be tested for using urine which is actually a direct method rather than just blood profiling which is an indirect method. Drug Tests Used in Sports - Sports and Drugs - ProCon.org

So check it out.

If your going to dig an experts link out, try to do one that doesn't have a hard on for Mayweather or strong ties to GBP. They appear to have altier motives and tend not to give complete answers.

Yes, the head of the US Olympic anti-doping organisation, the man who oversees the testing of over 3000 athletes is biased towards Mayweather. The only evidence of bias you can show is that Manny says they are. If an American athlete refused to let the USADA random test him, said he'd only take scheduled tests at times he agreed to and accused the USADA od being biased he'd be destroyed by the US media overnight. If he continued refusing testing as long as Manny has his career would be over.

As far as the drug testing goes I'm going to go with the heads of the anti-doping organisations -- you know, the people who know what they're talking about -- over the claims of a Pacneedle fan.

[Fenster]

But, even if you test clean, it doesn't prove or disprove what has happened in the past. The only way to know someone never juiced was if they were always tested in the way Floyd demanded. And because of Floyd's allegations, even if Manny tested clean, won't there always be doubt by some people?

What you're saying is that if it is not about the money and not about the pride, it must be about ego? Makes sense.

Yeah definatley, and that is so wrong for Floyd to create that doubt without any evidence. It's criminal at best.

Manny could have flattened Floyd's ego and won a massive psychological victory by just agreeing to take the tests like it was no big deal when Floyd first asked him to. Manny would have been saying yeah, I'm clean and I'm going to beat you up clean like I beat Cotto and shove your steroid allegations down your throat. But he basically copied the actions of every steroid cheat that's been caught in America over the last decade. The outraged denials, the lawsuits, the deaperate avoidance of any kind of random testing even when there was a massive contract on the table waiting to be signed if he agreed to it.

Floyd didn't create the doubt, Manny did. There are other boxing people other than the Mayweathers who have questioned whether what Manny is doing is legitimate and those are just the ones who've gone public about it. And all Manny had to do to dispel the doubt (and earn up to $60 million in the process) was agree to take random tests. It was the perfect opportunity to shut the doubters up. Instead all his actions since being asked to take random testing (back in mid-November) are the actions of a guilty man.

Exactly!

Then Floyd would have needed other excuses to throwaway $50 million

As for the original question - whatever happens now there will ALWAYS be a swathe of boxing fans saying Pac was a drug cheat. Even if innocent, he's tarnished his position in boxing, sadly.