One More Question

[RickyGoodSports]

Can you guys answer me one more question? Let's assume Pacquiao (as he should have) decided to take the tests demanded by Floyd, would that have convinced you that Manny never had been on steroids in the past? Is there anything that would convince you Manny didn't take drugs in the past?

See me personally, I don't think so unless Manny whupped Floyd after passing all of Floyd's tests, but even then that could be attributed to Manny just being better. The truth is there is no way absent admission by the fighter himself or proof by the supplier that a fighter took roids in the past. There just isn't. If he had taken the tests, the motivation behind it could have just been the coin. 20M is enough money to convince me, especially if I was brought up dirt poor in a third-world country, to fight Mike Tyson in his prime. I'd be clean for one fight for 20M, take that to the bank. I may have juiced my whole way up, but for 20M, I'd be clean for three months, believe that.

That is one reason why this whole thing is odd to me. Why not just stay clean for one fight, make the most cheddar you've ever seen, and go back to juicing if that is what you were doing? What would one clean fight prove? It can't be pride in winning because you've already lost and even if you lose, your fans can rightfully or wrongly chalk it up to the fact Floyd is a bigger man. Not to mention, we all know Floyd isn't knocking you out so you won't be damaged goods, you can land one or two more big fights and make another 10M - 15M. Actually, in loss it may even be easier to land more big fights because you don't seem as invincible anymore.

As an aside, the funny thing about all of this to me is that prior to the juicing allegations, I thought Manny was fighting an uphill battle anyway; Floyd would win and win by a wide UD. Wins over ODLH, Hatton, and Cotto didn't do enough to convince me that Manny would be able to find a way to get inside Floyd's reach. In fact, given the hype surrounding Manny after his win over Cotto, I thought the odds were too good to pass up, and even though I'm not a betting man per se, I was planning to lay down a large wad of cash of Floyd. I thought Manny hadn't faced a slick fighter like Floyd before and it would lead to his fall from grace. I'm pretty sure many of you felt the same way. This is all before the Roids allegations.

Floyd and his camp knew that Manny would not agree to PRE fight blood testing due to whatever superstitions or beliefs that Manny has. Manny's offer to be blood tested IMMEDIATELY after the fight is proof enough for me that he has nothing to hide. Only a true fool would believe that the results would be different over the one hour that it takes if the fight goes the distance. Face facts, Floyd is much more concerned with the 0 under the loss column than he is with one more victory. What do you think that fake retirement crap was all about if not a convenient way to not fight and pray that somebody, anybody would beat Manny so that he didn't HAVE to fight him.

[eagle]

Can you guys answer me one more question? Let's assume Pacquiao (as he should have) decided to take the tests demanded by Floyd, would that have convinced you that Manny never had been on steroids in the past? Is there anything that would convince you Manny didn't take drugs in the past?

See me personally, I don't think so unless Manny whupped Floyd after passing all of Floyd's tests, but even then that could be attributed to Manny just being better. The truth is there is no way absent admission by the fighter himself or proof by the supplier that a fighter took roids in the past. There just isn't. If he had taken the tests, the motivation behind it could have just been the coin. 20M is enough money to convince me, especially if I was brought up dirt poor in a third-world country, to fight Mike Tyson in his prime. I'd be clean for one fight for 20M, take that to the bank. I may have juiced my whole way up, but for 20M, I'd be clean for three months, believe that.

That is one reason why this whole thing is odd to me. Why not just stay clean for one fight, make the most cheddar you've ever seen, and go back to juicing if that is what you were doing? What would one clean fight prove? It can't be pride in winning because you've already lost and even if you lose, your fans can rightfully or wrongly chalk it up to the fact Floyd is a bigger man. Not to mention, we all know Floyd isn't knocking you out so you won't be damaged goods, you can land one or two more big fights and make another 10M - 15M. Actually, in loss it may even be easier to land more big fights because you don't seem as invincible anymore.

As an aside, the funny thing about all of this to me is that prior to the juicing allegations, I thought Manny was fighting an uphill battle anyway; Floyd would win and win by a wide UD. Wins over ODLH, Hatton, and Cotto didn't do enough to convince me that Manny would be able to find a way to get inside Floyd's reach. In fact, given the hype surrounding Manny after his win over Cotto, I thought the odds were too good to pass up, and even though I'm not a betting man per se, I was planning to lay down a large wad of cash of Floyd. I thought Manny hadn't faced a slick fighter like Floyd before and it would lead to his fall from grace. I'm pretty sure many of you felt the same way. This is all before the Roids allegations.

Floyd and his camp knew that Manny would not agree to PRE fight blood testing due to whatever superstitions or beliefs that Manny has. Manny's offer to be blood tested IMMEDIATELY after the fight is proof enough for me that he has nothing to hide. Only a true fool would believe that the results would be different over the one hour that it takes if the fight goes the distance. Face facts, Floyd is much more concerned with the 0 under the loss column than he is with one more victory. What do you think that fake retirement crap was all about if not a convenient way to not fight and pray that somebody, anybody would beat Manny so that he didn't HAVE to fight him.

What a load of shit. PED's can be cycled in and out of your blood stream, in a matter of a couple of days. Just because Pac may not have the drugs in his system straight after a fight does not mean he hasnt been using them in preparation, hence giving him a better training camp and better strength/fitness come fightnight. Manny is the guy who walked away from this fight not Floyd.
You wanna face facts? The facts are Manny Pacquiao ran away from the bigest fight of his career becasue he didnt wanna take random blood tests and it has tarnished his legacy forever.

[fan johnny]

Can you guys answer me one more question? Let's assume Pacquiao (as he should have) decided to take the tests demanded by Floyd, would that have convinced you that Manny never had been on steroids in the past? Is there anything that would convince you Manny didn't take drugs in the past?

See me personally, I don't think so unless Manny whupped Floyd after passing all of Floyd's tests, but even then that could be attributed to Manny just being better. The truth is there is no way absent admission by the fighter himself or proof by the supplier that a fighter took roids in the past. There just isn't. If he had taken the tests, the motivation behind it could have just been the coin. 20M is enough money to convince me, especially if I was brought up dirt poor in a third-world country, to fight Mike Tyson in his prime. I'd be clean for one fight for 20M, take that to the bank. I may have juiced my whole way up, but for 20M, I'd be clean for three months, believe that.

That is one reason why this whole thing is odd to me. Why not just stay clean for one fight, make the most cheddar you've ever seen, and go back to juicing if that is what you were doing? What would one clean fight prove? It can't be pride in winning because you've already lost and even if you lose, your fans can rightfully or wrongly chalk it up to the fact Floyd is a bigger man. Not to mention, we all know Floyd isn't knocking you out so you won't be damaged goods, you can land one or two more big fights and make another 10M - 15M. Actually, in loss it may even be easier to land more big fights because you don't seem as invincible anymore.

As an aside, the funny thing about all of this to me is that prior to the juicing allegations, I thought Manny was fighting an uphill battle anyway; Floyd would win and win by a wide UD. Wins over ODLH, Hatton, and Cotto didn't do enough to convince me that Manny would be able to find a way to get inside Floyd's reach. In fact, given the hype surrounding Manny after his win over Cotto, I thought the odds were too good to pass up, and even though I'm not a betting man per se, I was planning to lay down a large wad of cash of Floyd. I thought Manny hadn't faced a slick fighter like Floyd before and it would lead to his fall from grace. I'm pretty sure many of you felt the same way. This is all before the Roids allegations.

Floyd and his camp knew that Manny would not agree to PRE fight blood testing due to whatever superstitions or beliefs that Manny has. Manny's offer to be blood tested IMMEDIATELY after the fight is proof enough for me that he has nothing to hide. Only a true fool would believe that the results would be different over the one hour that it takes if the fight goes the distance. Face facts, Floyd is much more concerned with the 0 under the loss column than he is with one more victory. What do you think that fake retirement crap was all about if not a convenient way to not fight and pray that somebody, anybody would beat Manny so that he didn't HAVE to fight him.

What a load of shit. PED's can be cycled in and out of your blood stream, in a matter of a couple of days. Just because Pac may not have the drugs in his system straight after a fight does not mean he hasnt been using them in preparation, hence giving him a better training camp and better strength/fitness come fightnight. Manny is the guy who walked away from this fight not Floyd.
You wanna face facts? The facts are Manny Pacquiao ran away from the bigest fight of his career becasue he didnt wanna take random blood tests and it has tarnished his legacy forever.

What PED's? Put up or Shut up!

[eagle]

Floyd and his camp knew that Manny would not agree to PRE fight blood testing due to whatever superstitions or beliefs that Manny has. Manny's offer to be blood tested IMMEDIATELY after the fight is proof enough for me that he has nothing to hide. Only a true fool would believe that the results would be different over the one hour that it takes if the fight goes the distance. Face facts, Floyd is much more concerned with the 0 under the loss column than he is with one more victory. What do you think that fake retirement crap was all about if not a convenient way to not fight and pray that somebody, anybody would beat Manny so that he didn't HAVE to fight him.

What a load of shit. PED's can be cycled in and out of your blood stream, in a matter of a couple of days. Just because Pac may not have the drugs in his system straight after a fight does not mean he hasnt been using them in preparation, hence giving him a better training camp and better strength/fitness come fightnight. Manny is the guy who walked away from this fight not Floyd.
You wanna face facts? The facts are Manny Pacquiao ran away from the bigest fight of his career becasue he didnt wanna take random blood tests and it has tarnished his legacy forever.

What PED's? Put up or Shut up!

I was answering a moron who said he couldnt use PED's if he was tested 24 days before the fight, and just after the fight. I was merely explaining that it would be easy to do. Pac is the one who needs to PUT UP OR SHUT UP. Take the tests, come thru clean, and fight just as well, then people like me can never doubt him again. Acting the way he is just causes more doubts in everyones mind but brainless PACTARDS.

[Kirkland Laing]

What PED's? Put up or Shut up!

There are dozens of links to the information in previous posts if you read through the forum. Things like HGH, epo are only detectable for a day or two. That's why random testing is necessary.

Furthermore, the current methods related to detecting Hgh in blood samples are only useful for about 48 hours after injection; after which the tests reliability drops dramatically.

Dr. Johnny Benjamin: Apparently Floyd Mayweather Knows a Thing or Two About PED Testing



Travis Tygart, chief executive of the United States Anti-Doping Agency, said a blood test can allow testers to detect use of energy-boosting synthetic EPO, human growth hormone and "a number of potent performance-enhancers not detectable in urine. . . . With a [30-day] window like that, you could dope to the gills and get away with it."

Mayweather seeks strict drug testing for bout with Pacquiao - latimes.com


Pacquiao has agreed to have his blood tested three times: in early January, when the fight was expected to be announced, 30 days before the fight and immediately after it. He also agreed to random urine testing.
But Tygart said the 30-day window would still allow an athlete plenty of time to dope with illegal substances not detectable by urine testing.
“That kind of window is totally unacceptable,” Tygart said. “It would provide a huge loophole for a cheater to step through and get away with cheating.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/24/sp...r=2&ref=sports









FanHouse: Can you break down the differences between the effectiveness of drug-detection between urinalysis and blood-testing?

Travis Tygart: There's a host of significant and potent performance enhancing drugs that only blood will detect. Those include human growth hormone [HGH]; HBOC -- and that is synthetic hemoglobin; transfusions; certain forms of EPO, such as Mircera, which is essentially a designer EPO.

So those are a few of the specific drugs. There is also a different technique, which is known as parameter testing, which is done by the blood, or biological passport testing. Essentially, what it does is that it does not detect a specific drug like HGH.

But it looks at a host of parameters or biological markers that are natural to everyone's body. And over time -- if you look at those for an individual -- over time, you can see variability or fluctuations in those naturally occurring markers that we all have.

And if you see fluctuations to a certain degree, you can conclusively determine that those fluctuations were caused by nothing other than drug use, and certain categories of drug use. Not necessarily a specific drug, but categories of drug use.

I think that it's fair to say that there are several, very potent, performance enhancing drugs that only blood can detect, and there is an entirely different method of detecting broader categories of drug use through parameter testing that is done with the blood.


FH: What would it have taken to meld an inaugural blood-testing procedure into place for the Floyd Mayweather-Manny Pacquiao fight in terms of logistics and cost, considering it never has been used by the Nevada State Athletic Commission?

Tygart: Cancel one day of mediation or one state commission meeting, and you've paid for it. It's not cost-prohibitive, particularly, given this kind of a fight, and the money that's being exchanged in the hands. It's not a money issue.

The issue is whether there enough familiarity with the benefits of an Olympic-style, USADA-run, testing program to want to do it. Is this slightly more intrusive? Sure.

Does it mean that you have to be available for blood and urinalysis testing, which might interrupt your ability to go out to dinner at the set time you wanted? Or watch the television that you might want to watch? Possibly.

But it's a slight inconvenience that 3,000-plus athletes, 365 days a year, 24 hours a day, seven days a week -- including holidays -- whole-heartedly agree to because they know that that slight inconvenience is worth the benefit of having all of the competitors tested by an effective program.


FH: Has there ever been a movement to create a national testing policy for boxing?

Tygart: There's been no real legs to be one in the states, but there certainly needs to be one. Hopefully this fight happens. But if it doesn't happen because one athlete is demanding the highest level of testing, then that's good for clean athletes, and clean athletes' voices ought to be heard.

Hopefully the states as well as the various organizations will finally listen to clean athletes and put in an effective program. That's what happened in the Olympic movement. The clean athletes finally said, 'Enough, we're tired of losing to cheaters, and we don't want to endanger our health to cheaters. So we want change.'

And we know -- and the world knows -- that having independent entities running gold standard practices is what we demand. And we're willing to live with a little inconvenience, and we might even be willing to live with a little less money and prizes, if we feel that it's being run fairly, uniformly and under the best practices.'


FH: Does this request by the Mayweather camp give you enough of a platform to push for random blood-testing inclusion in boxing for the future?

Tygart: There were numerous conversations that we had with both camps on the detail of what it would take for us to be involved in this. There was a cart-blanche, 'We want USADA to do it. We've gotten familiar with the program. We understand its pluses and minor inconveniences.'

'There are 3,000-plus athletes around the U.S. who are at the top of their game making more money or equal to the money that these guys do, who are subject to it, and it works for them, and they're the best that there is, and that's what we want.'

Particularly given a sport like boxing where not only does a cheater potentially win a prize, but a cheater can cause physical harm to someone else too, particularly if they're doped up. And that element of the discussion has gotten lost. And I think that that's unfortunate.

But I think that there's a real safety and health concern that we all want to be cognizant about. What I can say is that our program does not in any way inconvenience any athlete's -- including a boxer's -- ability to prepare or train for their fight.

So it's hard for me to understand -- and this is not a specific comment about any of the fighters involved here -- but it's hard for me to understand why any athlete wouldn't want the same program that all of our Olympic athletes have.

That is, if they understand these issues, and they're familiar with the programs, and they're educated on the mild inconvenience, and they appreciate the importance of a level playing field.


FH: How might the desired effects that a boxer may want to achieve manifest itself in a boxer during a fight?

Tygart: Take a real-life example. Look at Shane Mosley and his doping program that was reported by a number outlets when he was involved with BALCO. He used both a designer steroid as well as blood enhancing products like EPO. This is a good anecdote as to how these drugs translate very well for boxers.

What you want with that combination of steroids and blood enhancing product is that you want to be the best pound-for-pound, with that lean muscle mass, and to be the strongest competitor that you can be. Whether that means that you are at 180, 170, 210.

Various forms of steroids and human growth hormone are going to allow you to do that. If you want lean muscle mass and be light, you're going to want a lot of HGH. You're going to cut weight, but that weight is going to be lean muscle mass.

It's not going to be fat. It's going to be the strongest pound-for-pound that you can get inside of your frame at that weight.


FH: What about gaining weight?

Tygart: Similarly, that's the football players. If you want to go from a buck-70, to a buck-85, and still have lean muscle mass, and strength, that's what you're going to do is some cycles of steroids. You then couple that. You can go from 140, to 160, or 145 to 155, whatever the case may be.

And there are different versions, whether you're talking a Deca [Deca-Durabolin,] or a Winnie [Winstrol,] or a Stanozolol. I testified out there for the California Athletic Commission for an MMA fighter. They had three cases they were dealing with and I was just there to define general policies.

One of them was caught for a classic cocktail that you would want to have. It was one of the fighters. It was lean muscle mass. Everybody on the streets and in the gym knows that if you're in a weight category and in competition, in a combat sport -- whether its judo, or boxing, or karate, or tai kwan do -- that's a classic cocktail that you would use.

When you're cutting weight, it will give you the lean muscle mass that you need, to have as much strength, pound-for-pound, as you can at that weight classification -- whether it's lower for you or higer for you. And then you have those that will just build muscle.

The combination of those strength-type, pound-for-pound strength drugs, which would include the anabolic steroids and the human growth hormones, the insulin, and then you couple that with the blood-doping-type drugs -- the HBOC, the designer, or the regular EPOs -- that then is going to give you the endurance to go along with that strength in late rounds of events.

[TheBranMan]

What PED's? Put up or Shut up!

There are dozens of links to the information in previous posts if you read through the forum. Things like HGH, epo are only detectable for a day or two. That's why random testing is necessary.

~articles, etc, etc~

Good post, although, no matter how many facts you post, Pacquiao fans will ignore or choose not to understand the reality of drug testing. Random blood testing will need to become the norm in championship bouts in the near future if boxing wants to become a serious sport anyway.

I, like most true boxing fans, would just like to see both fighters take the tests, so that I know I've paid for a fair fight. If he losses in embarrassing fashion, yes, I'll question his methods in previous bouts, but if he shows even sparks of his recent explosiveness (win or loose), I'll have to assume he's been clean his whole career.

Those Pacquiao fans who say that they "don't care" if he's using PEDs just disgust me. Those kind of statements just show that you don't respect the sport or sportsmanship in general.

[Rantcatrat]

What PED's? Put up or Shut up!

There are dozens of links to the information in previous posts if you read through the forum. Things like HGH, epo are only detectable for a day or two. That's why random testing is necessary.

~articles, etc, etc~

Good post, although, no matter how many facts you post, Pacquiao fans will ignore or choose not to understand the reality of drug testing. Random blood testing will need to become the norm in championship bouts in the near future if boxing wants to become a serious sport anyway.

I, like most true boxing fans, would just like to see both fighters take the tests, so that I know I've paid for a fair fight. If he losses in embarrassing fashion, yes, I'll question his methods in previous bouts, but if he shows even sparks of his recent explosiveness (win or loose), I'll have to assume he's been clean his whole career.

Those Pacquiao fans who say that they "don't care" if he's using PEDs just disgust me. Those kind of statements just show that you don't respect the sport or sportsmanship in general.

Bran, I'm glad you posted on this thread because I've noticed you have a lot of problems with Pacquiao's refusal to take the tests. I'll respond to your points in turn as well.

First, let me say that I too would like to see random drug testing become the norm in fights and I too agree that taking a "I don't care" attitude about performance enhancing drugs is ridiculous.

What you're saying is that after testing clean, if Pacquiao loses in embarrassing fashion to an undefeated, top p4p fighter in the world, you would question his previous bouts but if he just loses, wins a round here and there, you wouldn't? No offense, but that sounds completely arbitrary and subjective and impossible to be accurate at all. How about he just lost to a better fighter? Or that his style his made for Mayweather, a classic slick counter puncher, a better version of Marquez. Recall the difficulty Pacquiao had with Marquez's style and he was a smaller poor man's Mayweather.

Again, I don't know about you, but regardless of all the steroids talk, I thought Pacquiao would be destroyed anyway and lose ten rounds or so out of twelve. Check my previous posts prior to the steroids accusations.

How about the alternative - Pacquiao beats Mayweather in five rounds after testing clean? Couldn't it be that he used steroids to get himself up to 147 faster, but that for the one fight, to make $20M, he didn't? It's not like steroids change his skill set or his style. Maybe we are wrong and his style actually is a difficult style for Mayweather? His one clean test wouldn't prove that he was dirty in the past.

From what you have said, if you'll assume he's clean for his entire career from one clean test, why not just take these random tests, pocket the coin, lose the fight, and call it a day. Your career is vindicated, your legacy intact, you go down as an all-time great, and you are $20M richer. Right?

[15rounder]

Another typical post by you eagle...while some are pretty good, most are ignorant and short sited. It's no secret that Floyd is an incesant gambler, or that he's had numerous problems with the I.R.S. These, my friend, are what we call facts...Floyd's had no problem telling the whole world that on more than one occassion he's lost a million in one weekend gambling. And it's funny that you would ask me if I'm an expert on Floyds money when you have numerous postings where you claim to be an expert on Pacquious psyche. You claim to be knowing exactly what's going on in his head and in his camp. It's almost as if you sat there and watched him take drugs. Your argument is based on assumptions, mine are based on facts. It's not hard to find the video of pacmans 2005 interview where he was complaining of blood being drawn before the Morales fight (which he lost) and one could easily draw the conclusion that he would refuse to do it again. So in closing, open that narrow brain of yours and have the common decency to listen to someones opinion other than your own. You are not always right about everything. And not everyone deserves a curse word from you just because every single point in every single thought doesn't line up with exactly what you think. This isn't black and white. There's plenty of gray area here.

[eagle]

Another typical post by you eagle...while some are pretty good, most are ignorant and short sited. It's no secret that Floyd is an incesant gambler, or that he's had numerous problems with the I.R.S. These, my friend, are what we call facts...Floyd's had no problem telling the whole world that on more than one occassion he's lost a million in one weekend gambling. And it's funny that you would ask me if I'm an expert on Floyds money when you have numerous postings where you claim to be an expert on Pacquious psyche. You claim to be knowing exactly what's going on in his head and in his camp. It's almost as if you sat there and watched him take drugs. Your argument is based on assumptions, mine are based on facts. It's not hard to find the video of pacmans 2005 interview where he was complaining of blood being drawn before the Morales fight (which he lost) and one could easily draw the conclusion that he would refuse to do it again. So in closing, open that narrow brain of yours and have the common decency to listen to someones opinion other than your own. You are not always right about everything. And not everyone deserves a curse word from you just because every single point in every single thought doesn't line up with exactly what you think. This isn't black and white. There's plenty of gray area here.

So show me these facts that prove Pac didnt take drugs, Floyd is broke and needs the money from this fight to survive. In 2005 the blood was drawn 3 days before the fight, PBF allowed that to change to 14 days beforehand so tht argument is null and void.

[15rounder]

Another typical post by you eagle...while some are pretty good, most are ignorant and short sited. It's no secret that Floyd is an incesant gambler, or that he's had numerous problems with the I.R.S. These, my friend, are what we call facts...Floyd's had no problem telling the whole world that on more than one occassion he's lost a million in one weekend gambling. And it's funny that you would ask me if I'm an expert on Floyds money when you have numerous postings where you claim to be an expert on Pacquious psyche. You claim to be knowing exactly what's going on in his head and in his camp. It's almost as if you sat there and watched him take drugs. Your argument is based on assumptions, mine are based on facts. It's not hard to find the video of pacmans 2005 interview where he was complaining of blood being drawn before the Morales fight (which he lost) and one could easily draw the conclusion that he would refuse to do it again. So in closing, open that narrow brain of yours and have the common decency to listen to someones opinion other than your own. You are not always right about everything. And not everyone deserves a curse word from you just because every single point in every single thought doesn't line up with exactly what you think. This isn't black and white. There's plenty of gray area here.

So show me these facts that prove Pac didnt take drugs, Floyd is broke and needs the money from this fight to survive. In 2005 the blood was drawn 3 days before the fight, PBF allowed that to change to 14 days beforehand so tht argument is null and void.

Thank you for proving my point...your ASSUMING Pac-man is taking drugs. Show me a failed drug test from Pac-man and then I'll say he's taking drugs. I can give you plenty of facts that Pac-man isn't taking drugs. How about his HUNDREDS OF PASSED DRUG TESTS. I already explained to you and everyone else in here why he turned down the 14 day option (in my opinion), the damage had already been done and he was way passed pissed off. Again, thank you for proving my point with your response.