Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston

[OumaFan]

Its not about the quality of the opponent though, neither Tyson or Hamed beat many really quality opponents during their prime but the way they did it, you could just tell they were a level above. Unfortunately it was only later after they had started to fall off that they began to fight truly great fighters and because they lost to some of those guys people act like their prime was overrated, that the reason they looked so amazing was because they were feasting on less than elite fighters, which just isn't the case.

[Fenster]

Its not about the quality of the opponent though, neither Tyson or Hamed beat many really quality opponents during their prime but the way they did it, you could just tell they were a level above. Unfortunately it was only later after they had started to fall off that they began to fight truly great fighters and because they lost to some of those guys people act like their prime was overrated, that the reason they looked so amazing was because they were feasting on less than elite fighters, which just isn't the case.

This.

Tyson's kind of like Naz, you can't look at their whole careers cause they just let themselves go, you've just gotta look at that point in time when they were at their peak (no matter how short a time period that might have been)and if you do you would have to admit that they would have likely been too much for anyone around their weight class no matter what era. All the Tillis fight really showed was that a poorly motivated Tyson could still cruise against an Ali type opponent (not quite of Ali's caliber obviously but still Tyson would have been far more motivated for an Ali fight). Same with Naz really, I'm not sure how anyone could watch the Jose Badillo fight and think Morales could beat that Naz. And that's obviously just one example.

And this.

[OumaFan]

Agreed, Fenster.

And while he never beat any elite guys during his prime some of those wins are better than people give Mike credit for. Larry Holmes was old, etc., etc., but yet he was able to beat Mercer four years later. And went the distance with Holyfield. And I'm not sure what that whole "glove caught in the ropes" excuse was all about, if anything Larry probably saw the writing on the wall and was looking for a way out.

[rjj tszyu]

Agreed, Fenster.

And while he never beat any elite guys during his prime some of those wins are better than people give Mike credit for. Larry Holmes was old, etc., etc., but yet he was able to beat Mercer four years later. And went the distance with Holyfield. And I'm not sure what that whole "glove caught in the ropes" excuse was all about, if anything Larry probably saw the writing on the wall and was looking for a way out.

Yes but you cannot judge what one fighter does against anothers common opponent in the way you have above. Evander would have always beaten Tyson.

You saying look what Tyson did to Holmes and then point out that Holmes wen tthe distance with Evander means nothing. Look what Frazier did to Ali in the first fight and then look what Foreman did to Frazier. Doesn't mean Foreman is going to destroy Ali does it??

[Fenster]

Agreed, Fenster.

And while he never beat any elite guys during his prime some of those wins are better than people give Mike credit for. Larry Holmes was old, etc., etc., but yet he was able to beat Mercer four years later. And went the distance with Holyfield. And I'm not sure what that whole "glove caught in the ropes" excuse was all about, if anything Larry probably saw the writing on the wall and was looking for a way out.

You mean he purposely got his glove caught in the ropes? Hmm.. it does sort of make sense.

Quality of opposition is totally overrated. I agree. Fact.

[OumaFan]

I think its the most likely explanation. Sometimes its easy to over think things and miss what's right in front of you, Occam's Razor and such.

As far as Tyson-Holyfield, it just wasn't a prime Tyson, maybe Holyfield was a bad style matchup but we'll never know

[ICB]

Agreed, Fenster.

And while he never beat any elite guys during his prime some of those wins are better than people give Mike credit for. Larry Holmes was old, etc., etc., but yet he was able to beat Mercer four years later. And went the distance with Holyfield. And I'm not sure what that whole "glove caught in the ropes" excuse was all about, if anything Larry probably saw the writing on the wall and was looking for a way out.

Larry Holmes went through a bad patch during the mid 80's, he didn't look good vs Carl Williams or Michael Spinks. Plus he was ring rusty, and didn't have alot of time to train for Mike Tyson, i think the early 40's version of Larry Holmes was better than the late 30's Larry Holmes.