The jab -- technically perfecting it (Help please)

[Fran@myboxingcoach]

Hey Herb

Firstly, you're not being silly, it's good that you're being analytical...many aren't when it comes to understanding and deploying the technique of punching. You are also correct in your view that improving your technique is more benficial than seeking to focus on building strength.

Now, in terms of what your jab should do. Whilst the twist of the wrist is important, I'm not sure it contributes greatly to the impact of the jab when it lands. The main contributory factors to landing a jab with 'power' are a) ensuring that the opponent doesn't see the jab coming and b) the direction of movement of both you and your opponent (obviously, if you are both moving toward each other then the impact of any straight shot will increase). In modern amateur boxing, a key reason that the wrist turns and all punches land 'palm down' is because the referee will warn the boxer for slapping!

Speaking as a coach, I can't help but feel that you may be better focussing on ensuring that there is no 'telegraphing' of the jab rather than searching for physiological adjustments to improve power. As I see it, the basics of the jab are:

1. From the stance and on-guard position, the first action is a push from the front foot which in turn rotates the upper-body slightly so that the hips and shoulders will align with the opponent.
2. As the rotation is taking place, the lead arm is thrust out, ensuring that the lead arm elbow follows the same line as the fist i.e. there is no lateral movement of the elbow at all, whatsoever!
3. As the lead arm is moving towards the target it accelerates. As the fist approaches the target (having covered about 75% of the distance to the target) it rotates inwards, so that the palm is facing down towards the floor. At the last moment, the fist clenches and ’snaps’ on to the target.
4. The fist returns along the same line as before, returning to the ‘home’ position as per the stance.

And some common faults:

1. There is an urge to try and hit too hard. The desire to throw the punch hard often results in the boxer’s weight transferring to the front leg. This has the effect of impairing the balance and making you very vulnerable to counter-attack. Remember, the jab will often be thrown as you move forward, so throwing the weight onto the front leg is very high risk!
2. The punch is ‘telegraphed’, or tell-tale movement before the punch begins it’s journey. These movements are often the elbow lifting to the side or the fist dropping slightly, both of which are dead giveaways.
3. The boxer allows the punch to become an upper-body movement. Ensure that the rotation of the upper-body is generated by the push from the front leg.

Much better to throw an accurate jab that lands rather than a 'powerful' jab that misses! Sugar Ray Leonard once said "I'm not known as a hard puncher, I'm known as a consistent puncher. If the first one don't getcha, the next one will!"
Good luck mate

[HerbM]

[Rather than try to quote everyone and reply inline, I am just going to add my new current understandings or clarifications -- or questions. And again, thanks to all who are helping, I really appreciate your time and attention.]

As to multiple jabs, I absolutely agree and had thought to put that in the first post, but decided my long post to stand some simplification. So I think this question was about the power jab, since my coach is riding me to develop that -- with speed and no hesitation or delay when doubling. My biggest current problem with THIS type of jab is keeping the power without introducing a delay, especially as my arm fatigues after multiple rounds.

I think if you have a clean fast power jab, you can always tone it down for distance measuring and distraction, but doing the opposite isn't likely to be as trivial.

In my opinion, my jab has little or no telegraph characteristics, and goes out (and back) very relaxed -- even though I am new at boxing, I have a couple of serious years in Systema where (practically) every punch is relaxed and thrown ballistically, usually with a definite strategy of concealing the actual punch. Sure, I can improve here, but these are current best attributes, along with hitting hard -- that is, at my current level. I will need to improve these again as my current weaknesses catch up, an continuous, iterative process the Japenese (businesses) call Kaizen.

My tendency to hesitate between jabs when throwing hard isn't about telegraphing, but merely a neuro-muscular delay to 'find the power' again. Likely this is just going to take driving myself to and through exhaustion for few weeks/months, until either the muscles or the nerves (both really) respond faster even when fatigued.

I also agree with the "getting the elbow" back -- I find this makes a much more reliable mental trigger for retrieving the hand/glove back to guard. If I concentrate on snapping the elbow down and back to the body the hand MUST end up where it belongs, but merely pulling the hand allows the hand to end up almost anywhere...
I finally got in a little 'shadow sparring' -- no real hitting -- with a bunch of more experienced young guys ages 20-35 -- and got to see where all this practice is taking me, at least to a small degree. They all noticed my continued aggressiveness (moving forward, jabbing my way in) and my defenses were much better than I expected, both catching their shots and (wonder of wonders) moving my head. (My only real disability is some chronic arthritis and extremely stiff joints including the neck and spine.)

But, I started slipping and ducking punches at their encouragement and it was surprising (to me) how many I could just avoid and immediately counter punch successfully.

Only problem with this is that I cannot really tell what works since they aren't really hitting me even though I tried to encourage them to put more into showing me my weaknesses -- really, I don't mind being hit and it's the only way I can really know if what I am doing is working even though I feel no real need to add real contact to hitting them.

I watch a lot of boxing on TV -- my wife likes it too fortunately -- and of all the fighters I see, I think I am most like Glen Johnson the light heavyweight. Although I am seriously working on cutting angles (from Systema and AMOK!) and not just going straight in every time (my natural tendency).

Johnson is about my size -- I outweigh him by about the amount of fat I need to lose, ~20 lbs -- and build except that my arms are a bit longer for my height.

I do not however want to be limited to just one such style of fighting however.

Thanks again for the continued help.
--
HerbM

[HerbM]

I initially responded a bit generally, but came back to re-read your excellent post Fran and want to bore in a bit deeper with some follow-up questions on some of your specific points....

Again, thanks everyone -- you have all assured me it isn't silly or a waste of time to study this carefully so I am still putting a lot of thought AND practice concentration (mostly on the heavy bag) into this.

Hey Herb

...As I see it, the basics of the jab are:

1. From the stance and on-guard position, the first action is a push from the front foot which in turn rotates the upper-body slightly so that the hips and shoulders will align with the opponent.

"push from the front foot...rotates the upper-body" must mean we are pushing to the OUTSIDE to turn our body inside, right?

We wouldn't be pushing ourselves back (with front foot) would we?

Hey Herb

2. As the rotation is taking place, the lead arm is thrust out, ensuring that the lead arm elbow follows the same line as the fist i.e. there is no lateral movement of the elbow at all, whatsoever!

I need to ask about a very picky detail since I may not be doing this perfectly: My elbo is NOT going off line for at least the first 90% of the jab stroke, but since the shoulder begins the rotation at the last inch or two of extension the elbow must (bio-mechanics) be offline VERY slightly at this end of the punch, right?

At this point, the hand is just starting to contact the target, so I am not talking about anything that would telegraph the punch, but merely using that should roll to try to add a few more pounds of force and a little more speed as the glove connects.

Hey Herb
...

4. The fist returns along the same line as before, returning to the ‘home’ position as per the stance.

I am thinking -- and ASKING you not arguing -- that the arm can better return if it is NOT pulled back precisely the same way it is extended, so (feel free to) correct me on the following:

By pulling the hand back a bit before dropping/unrolling the elbow you can get a mechanically and gravity advantage by having that elbow out a little on the return -- the advantage comes because the muscles to drop the elbow and pull it into the body (lats and even pects) are asymetrical with the muscles for lifting/extending it (mainly delts).

By letting that elbow bend out a little bit you can accelerate the elbow back INTO the body, and you get a retrieval advantage that isn't useful on the way out.

IF (big if) I am correct, this is a small by minor point, but doing this seems to be helping me retrieve my arm faster (and more reliably) with less effort, especially when I am tired from several rounds of hard bag work.

This way I am much less likely to do a partial return when trying to double or triple the jab, and the speed certainly seems to be greater (also, coach hasn't corrected my return since I started doing this but this might be only an accident of his attention to what I need most.)

Hey Herb

And some common faults:

1. There is an urge to try and hit too hard. The desire to throw the punch hard often results in the boxer’s weight transferring to the front leg. This has the effect of impairing the balance and making you very vulnerable to counter-attack. Remember, the jab will often be thrown as you move forward, so throwing the weight onto the front leg is very high risk!

I certainly get what you are saying about "punch too hard' -- there is a line past which putting more muscle (or giving up balance of course) just ruins the whole action.

Golfers see this all the time; you cannot make the ball go further by forcing it, you must rather hit it better.

I have been practicing the "front foot drop" since my first reading of Dempsey's book; but I am definitely NOT letting this throw me forward, merely picking up the foot and dropping back onto it (about an inch or two) while keeping most of my weight back as per my original stance.

This was my least confident point (#5) in my original post, but after reading Dempsey's recommendations, I am definitely practicing it to have this as a CHOICE.

This is NOT "falling into the punch" but rather falling back onto good balance, using that slight movement forward just at the moment of impact -- any sooner or any later and this subtle movement is totally wasted.

2. The punch is ‘telegraphed’, or tell-tale movement before the punch begins it’s journey. These movements are often the elbow lifting to the side or the fist dropping slightly, both of which are dead giveaways.

I am known (from Systema) for having no telegraph and being able to hit from odd angles or unexpectedly without even cocking, but I do want to test this with some sparring in boxing.

Systema practitioners actively practice what is called "short work" (being able to hit hard from in close) and "drop baiting" (leaving a hand in place as you move and then hitting from there). In drop baiting the hand seems to disappear (from the opponent's vision) as he tracks your body, and then comes out of nowhere because it became momentarily stationary while everything else was moving.

3. The boxer allows the punch to become an upper-body movement. Ensure that the rotation of the upper-body is generated by the push from the front leg.Much better to throw an accurate jab that lands rather than a 'powerful' jab that misses! ...

Absolutely. I am also focusing now on getting the (slight) upper body rotation from retracting the opposite shoulder rather than pushing out the punching arm.

I figured this out on my own somewhat, it was slightly mentioned in Dempsey's book, and then I found the other excellent thread here on these forums where it has been stated explicitly this way long ago.

I believe there are several reasons why retracting the opposite shoulder is so much better -- it avoids neuro-muscular confusion with so much going on in the punching arm/shoulder, it lets the BACK muscles get involved more easily, and it is easier to time this rotation so that it does not start with the punch but only happens near/at the moment of impact.

That rotation is going to be small, especially for a jab, and thus we don't want to waste, disperse, or use it until we are at the target. It can be powerful, but we want all that power at the end of the punch during contact.

My experience with this method (pulling opposite shoulder back at/near impact) is so far quite good on the bag and in shadow boxing.

I seem to be looser, more relaxed in shadow boxing and hitting stronger with less fatigue at the heavy bag.

Also that proper little rotation helps to retrieve and snap the hand when it unwinds so you again get back faster.

Finally, I think this all helps get a LITTLE push from the back right foot once contact is made -- you can feel the power line from back toe to knuckles more strongly.

I have a suspicion that leaving these little things to the very end of the jab, also allows them to be left out when just probing or measuring distance -- or even when a miss occurs. No contact, means less commitment since these little extras are all at the end. Maybe that is wrong, and will lead to 'pushing' the jab, but it is something I am consciously watching for both the good and the bad effects.



Again, I want your (everyone's) honest criticism and corrections -- I have NO ego invested in "being right" but am completely committed to perfecting the power jab.

[Fran@myboxingcoach]

Hey Herb

Apologies for the delay in responding. I very much appreciate the time you've spent analysing what I posted. Anyway, I'll try to respond in some kind of coherent manner.

1. In terms of the rotation. I find it helps to imagine a perpendicular axis going down through the top of the head, through the centre of the body and fixed into the ground. This axis is fixed, like a steel bar, meaning that the body can only rotate around it and cannot bend (even slightly) one way or another. The push from the front foot rotates the body clockwise around this axis. This rotation is slight. If you imagine the left shoulder being at a starting point of 11 o'clock, it lands at 12 o'clock (the assumption being that we are in an orthodox stance).
2. In response to the issue of the arm being thrust out and the elbow following the same line (or better described the same vertical plane). I tend not to think of the shoulder adding force per se, although in terms of the bio-mechanics I'll defer to your greater understanding of muscle groups etc. My sense is that the rotation aligns your shoulders to the opponent in the split second before impact and therefore accommodates the elbow not leaving the vertical plane.
3. The fist returning along the same line. Following the boxer landing a jab, I tend to focus instantly on defence. A very common response to a jab is a long range right hook to the head or body, so I encourage the boxer to get the elbow straight back to the ribs for the purposes of protection (based upon the logic that the quickest route between 2 points is a straight line). If you feel that allowing the elbow to come out a little aids you getting the arm back to the starting point more quickly and efficiently, then go with it. You're correct to notice the elbow issue in terms of double and triple jabs. A very common problem in boxers when throwing a double jab is that the upper arm/elbow remains extended and the forearm pops out and back to make up the double. This leads to a fairly useless jab (in terms of power) but also leaves the boxer very vulnerable to the long range right hook to the body...not a pleasant shot to be hit with!
4. The 'Front foot drop' sounds to me like an exaggeration of moving forward (back foot pushes and the front foot lifts slightly). As long as the lift doesn't become too noticable or common, thus giving away the shot, then I wouldn't find real fault with it as an option. Whether it adds any significant power, I don't know, I'll have to think a bit more on that one. I am a big fan of Jack Dempsey, a tremendously tough and big hitting man. Were you aware that his method of improving his punch resistance (or chin) as a kid was to have his older brother punch him square on the jaw every day, and every day he was knocked clean on his arse. Then one day he didn't go down...it has to be said this kamikaze approach seemed to work, because when he did get knocked down during his career (Luis Firpo fight for instance), he always got back up!!! The phrase teak tough was invented for Dempsey!
5. In relation to the telegraphing issue. I understand what you're saying in that the body acts as diversion, taking the opponent's attention away from the fist. If it lands, then it's a good shot. My logic in terms of the elbow not raising as the shot goes is twofold really i) the human eye is much better at spotting side to side movement rather than movement to or from it, this is why we need to look twice when crossing the road, and ii) the strength of the shot is improved as the snap and 'locking' of the arm if timed well maximises impact.
6. The final point, your point is very well described and I think I am in broad agreement. I would watch for the right shoulder retracting too far and allowing the upper body to become 'square on' to the opponent, thus leaving a big target to be aimed at.

Thanks for your post Herb. My reply has felt more like a rite of passage ! I'm now going to sit on my haunches in the corner of a darkened room, rocking back and forth and babbling incoherently!!!!

Take care mate.

Fran