What if Tyson and Douglas had a rematch?

[El Kabong]

Tyson was unpredictable, he needed to stay busy but just not dedicated or motivated which is why he fought sporadically. He would get out of condition but had he stayed busy, he would have been a force, even then.

Pressure fighters like Tyson age out of the game quicker than most. Look at Floyd Patterson, look at Jose Torres...those guys peaked and bang they were done.

Mike Tyson was NEVER going to be better than he was when he was young, he was NEVER going to beat Holyfield, he was NEVER going to beat Lewis and yes even with proper training he would have still struggled with guys like Ruddock(whom he did struggle with a bit in the rematch).

Manny Steward wanted Lennox to cement his legacy by punishing Tyson, they weren't afraid of him. Manny just wanted Lennox to end the fight with a bang instead of dragging it out.

Had Tyson never left Rooney, things may have been different but I doubt he would have held on much longer than he did. Holyfield was just after Douglas and I just think Evander's attitude, chin, ability to fight on the inside and fight dirtier than Tyson without getting caught would have always had the upperhand in that match up....just my opinion though. Some people like to think Tyson was invincible but that peekaboo style has it's flaws, all another fighter needed to do was be brave enough to stick to the game plan Holyfield and Lewis were brave enough and smart enough to do it at pretty much any point in their careers.

[generalbulldog]

Tyson was unpredictable, he needed to stay busy but just not dedicated or motivated which is why he fought sporadically. He would get out of condition but had he stayed busy, he would have been a force, even then.

Pressure fighters like Tyson age out of the game quicker than most. Look at Floyd Patterson, look at Jose Torres...those guys peaked and bang they were done.

Mike Tyson was NEVER going to be better than he was when he was young, he was NEVER going to beat Holyfield, he was NEVER going to beat Lewis and yes even with proper training he would have still struggled with guys like Ruddock(whom he did struggle with a bit in the rematch).

Manny Steward wanted Lennox to cement his legacy by punishing Tyson, they weren't afraid of him. Manny just wanted Lennox to end the fight with a bang instead of dragging it out.

Had Tyson never left Rooney, things may have been different but I doubt he would have held on much longer than he did. Holyfield was just after Douglas and I just think Evander's attitude, chin, ability to fight on the inside and fight dirtier than Tyson without getting caught would have always had the upperhand in that match up....just my opinion though. Some people like to think Tyson was invincible but that peekaboo style has it's flaws, all another fighter needed to do was be brave enough to stick to the game plan Holyfield and Lewis were brave enough and smart enough to do it at pretty much any point in their careers.

Pressure fighters do burn out quickly because of the punishment they take, but here's the thing, Tyson barely got hit when he was with the Catskill gang. The head and upper body movement was supreme. And he basically cleaned out the HW division within 2-3 years. Here's the kicker, after he left Rooney and fought Bruno next, he got hit more than he did than in his 1st 35 fights! The head and upper body movement was gone, he just became a 1 dimensional head hunter that stood up straight and just relied on power and chin.

I may have said Tyson was a little bit overrated, but I still fancy a 21 year old Tyson under Rooney to give a tough fight to any HW champ in history.

There has never been another MIke Tyson since, a combination of speed and power. The HW legends in the past either had speed or power, but not a combination of the 2. It's a sad thing that Tyson had mental and outside problems and never reached his full potential. But for that 3 year period when he was with Rooney, he did looked invincible, only a bonecrusher smith punch at the end of 12 had him a bit wobble.

[ross]

Exactly, Mike coul avoid punches like no one, there were patches in fights where he got so confient hed stand in front of an opponent and bob, weave, roll, he couldnt be ht until he left Rooney and wasnt being drilled in the D,amato system.

Alot of people oon this forum are too young to remember how massive and popular Tyson was in the Eighties, he advertised pepsi, he had his own Nintendo game, he was a spokesperson for the New York city police department and the FBI, Tyson was as big as Michael jackson in the late Eighties.

Its now popular for people to downplay his skills and say he was just a bully, the truth is we never got to see a fair comparrison of that skillfull honed Mike tyson against the better fighters that came after his first reign.

Mikes explosive style would have lasted till he was 30 at least, he needed that explosive speed that he still does have so he could well have gone on to be the geratest fighter that lived, he could still take a shot and still had power but his power did dwindle a little as he slowed but his slowing was down to not having the right trainer, I remember Buddy McGirt had Mike training in his gym for a few days before one of his later comebacks and he said Mikes knowledge and capabilities even then were amazing, he said Mike told him about the D,amato syatem and now Buddy realised that it wasnt just about the peekaboo style but every move set up another, Mike had a style that was actually a system, like mathmatical equasions, hed keep trying difefrent numbers till he got the right answer, no one else understood it other than D,Amatos understudies which is why no one else other than Ronney would work for Tyson.

How anyone could call a 5,9" 216lb fighter a bully in a division of giants is a joke, the otehr thing that makes me laugh is how the Eighties is always passed off as a dead time for heavyweights, there were lots of skillfull heavies around, much more than the past 15 years, just because Mike was that good he could do it without getting hit.

[El Kabong]

Pressure fighters do burn out quickly because of the punishment they take, but here's the thing, Tyson barely got hit when he was with the Catskill gang.

It's not so much the punishment as it's just a hard style to keep up. All the bobbing and weaving and combination punching that requires a youthful exuberance to keep it up and be effective.

ross, I am a child of the 1980's you don't have to tell me how popular he was back then. All I know is that Cus D'Mato's system doesn't make for invincible fighters it has it's strengths and weaknesses just like any other training has. No one is saying Tyson isn't great, no one is saying Tyson wasn't a wonderful talent...I'm just being real about the guy and that style of fighting. Tyson's style was a bully style watch him in any clinch, his head is always down in close and his forearm is usually in the throat of the other fighter....and heavyweights back in the 1980's weren't near as big as they are now 218-230 was about the average weight no matter how tall they were

[generalbulldog]

Pressure fighters do burn out quickly because of the punishment they take, but here's the thing, Tyson barely got hit when he was with the Catskill gang.

It's not so much the punishment as it's just a hard style to keep up. All the bobbing and weaving and combination punching that requires a youthful exuberance to keep it up and be effective.

ross, I am a child of the 1980's you don't have to tell me how popular he was back then. All I know is that Cus D'Mato's system doesn't make for invincible fighters it has it's strengths and weaknesses just like any other training has. No one is saying Tyson isn't great, no one is saying Tyson wasn't a wonderful talent...I'm just being real about the guy and that style of fighting. Tyson's style was a bully style watch him in any clinch, his head is always down in close and his forearm is usually in the throat of the other fighter....and heavyweights back in the 1980's weren't near as big as they are now 218-230 was about the average weight no matter how tall they were

And that's because most of the heavyweights today are fatasses if youre talking about averages. Let's take a look at the guys he fought from the Berbick fight to Ruddock, until he got sent off to prison.

Berbick- 218
Smith- 233
Tucker-221
Thomas-217
Biggs-228
Holmes-225
Tubbs-238
Spinks-212
Bruno-228
Williams-218
Douglass-231
Tillman-215
Stewart-218
Ruddock I- 228
Ruddock II -238

It seems to me the guys Tyson fought starting with Berbick were in the averages of 220+. You make it sound like he was fighting guys under 200 pounds. And why are you comparing the HW's in the 80s to today? IS it because the Klit brothers are in this era and you're trying to make it sound like the Klit brothers are doing something impressive when trying to bring up the average weight of HW's today?

I'll say it here the 21 year old Tyson under Rooney blasts out Wladimir within 3 and stops Vitali on cuts within 6.

[El Kabong]

I'll say it here the 21 year old Tyson under Rooney blasts out Wladimir within 3 and stops Vitali on cuts within 6.

Do we have to even go there? This is about if there was a Tyson-Douglas II. Why bring up the Klitschko's? It's not Wlad or Vitali's fault that their opponents don't come to fight...a lot of the guys Mike Tyson fought didn't come to fight either. They may have been in shape physically but mentally they were already prepared to lose.

Tony Thompson isn't all that bad, he doesn't have much power but he's got good defense a solid jab and I'm not surprised that a lot of trainers/promoters don't want their guy in with him.

As for the heavyweights being more...well "heavy" these days. The Klitschko's weigh in circa 240-250 and are in great shape meanwhile guys who were the same height as the Klitschko's in the 1980's weighed in at 220 or something, like Tony Tucker or Tyrell Briggs or hell Shannon Briggs when he fought Lennox Lewis was 228. The problems with the heavyweight division these days are CRIS ARREOLA, SAM PETER, and ODLAINER SOLIS. All well skilled but all over weight

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Lyle, that's because they're aspiring to fight Super Heavyweights

Where's the motivation to fight real Heavyweights?
Off topic, I know... but still food for thought.

[ross]

Yep the heavies in the 80,s might have been lighter but look how much more mobile they were an they could put combinations together and they had skill.

The Klitschkos might look in shape but both slow as the fight progress and both look clumsy, its the lack of quality around that has allowed their size to rule.

[ross]

Tyson's style was a bully style watch him in any clinch, his head is always down in close and his forearm is usually in the throat of the other fighter

That was also a tactic, yes Mike didnt mind holding but try and say he was Ricky Hatton, you dont get as high a knockout percentage and as many first round KO's as Mike has by holding, his opponents initiated the holding and Mike really didnt mind but hew as taught to keep his eye on the gloves, keep his arms in side the opponents and the elbow in the throat is pretty straight forward, Floyd uses it now

This is all because Mike was taught well, how many other fighters from the mid eighties do we wish were around now? Maybe Leonard but even he got beat at his peak, Mike destroyed a division.

Also, Tony Tucker before he fought mike would have handled todays division He was 6,5" and had 29 ko's from 30 fights

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

He was better than Tony Thompson, that's for sure.

[J_Undisputed]

Tyson's style was a bully style watch him in any clinch, his head is always down in close and his forearm is usually in the throat of the other fighter

That was also a tactic, yes Mike didnt mind holding but try and say he was Ricky Hatton, you dont get as high a knockout percentage and as many first round KO's as Mike has by holding, his opponents initiated the holding and Mike really didnt mind but hew as taught to keep his eye on the gloves, keep his arms in side the opponents and the elbow in the throat is pretty straight forward, Floyd uses it now

This is all because Mike was taught well, how many other fighters from the mid eighties do we wish were around now? Maybe Leonard but even he got beat at his peak, Mike destroyed a division.

Also, Tony Tucker before he fought mike would have handled todays division He was 6,5" and had 29 ko's from 30 fights

Actually, it was Mike many times, that initiated the holding. He used it to guage how ripe his opponents were for the knock out and how much fight they had left in them. On the inside, Mike a practice of grabbing his opponents arms and pulling them into him. If he was game, he'd pull away...or try push or back Tyson up.... if the guy had enough, he would hold on or his arms would go limp. (in reaching, his opponents would often take their elbows away from their sides and leave themselves open for the hook to the body /uppercut combo he like to use so much.) Tyson would typically bury his head in the center of his opponents chest to distance them so he had room on the inside to work and get his hands inside his opponents so he could work the body and still protect his head.

[ross]

Now your just making things up

kevin Rooney used to get frustrated with Mike how he would let his opponents hold, he actually said once that Mike used to have "silent contracts with his oppponents that if they held neither would work on the inside".

If Mikes opponents held, Mike was still in control because as soon as the clinch finished Mike would go back to work, clinching Mike never did any good for his opponents other than to give Mike a breather and do a few dirty tactics like hooking and following through with his elbow either in to the cheek or the throat


I know Rooney has said it but a quick search has found Atlas has said the same thing and in an artical along with Eddie Futch about Tysons performance in the Douglas fight.

''It was a silent contract,'' Atlas said. ''A free ride for the opponent, who often was glad to have it. This time, Douglas didn't go along with the silent contract. He punched and made Tyson come up with something different.''

Also, the last few paragraphs are said from Mikes old trainers and another world renowned trainer, Futch who all noticed and agreed that Mike had no desire and wasnt fit, over time though revisionists will try telling us that Mike was a bully and Douglas not only stood up to him but also would have held his own with any heavyweight in history.

Truth is a tired beaten up disinterseted Tyson still dropped him hard in the 8th and if it hadnt been so close to the bell, Mike would have finished him there.

Tyson Failed to Make Adjustments - NYTimes.com

[rjj tszyu]

Tyson was unpredictable, he needed to stay busy but just not dedicated or motivated which is why he fought sporadically. He would get out of condition but had he stayed busy, he would have been a force, even then.

Pressure fighters like Tyson age out of the game quicker than most. Look at Floyd Patterson, look at Jose Torres...those guys peaked and bang they were done.

Mike Tyson was NEVER going to be better than he was when he was young, he was NEVER going to beat Holyfield, he was NEVER going to beat Lewis and yes even with proper training he would have still struggled with guys like Ruddock(whom he did struggle with a bit in the rematch).

Manny Steward wanted Lennox to cement his legacy by punishing Tyson, they weren't afraid of him. Manny just wanted Lennox to end the fight with a bang instead of dragging it out.

Had Tyson never left Rooney, things may have been different but I doubt he would have held on much longer than he did. Holyfield was just after Douglas and I just think Evander's attitude, chin, ability to fight on the inside and fight dirtier than Tyson without getting caught would have always had the upperhand in that match up....just my opinion though. Some people like to think Tyson was invincible but that peekaboo style has it's flaws, all another fighter needed to do was be brave enough to stick to the game plan Holyfield and Lewis were brave enough and smart enough to do it at pretty much any point in their careers.

I completely agree with this post Lyle. I've always wondered how Bonecrusher would have got on had he tried to hit Tyson before the last minute and not just gone in to survive.