David Haye another Amir Con? Manufactured "champ?"

[Scrap]

I remember Taking Adam Booth on the pads many years ago as a 17 year old. Thinking He,s a Bright lad, with a nice disposition, pleased for the pair of them.

[El Kabong]

Well Lyle remember the last man Wlad fought with GENUINE power and hand speed?? It was Corey Sanders (the same man who couldn't stop British CW Johnny Nelson) and what happened there?? Wlad got the shite knocked out of him. Now to me Wlad is the one begging to be exploited by Hayes strengths. And if you think Haye will fight either Klitschko in the manner of any of his other HW fights then your totally delusional. We all know boxing is a game of tactics and skill and at the moment Haye is quickly developing in both skill and ability to follow a tactical game.

That was a different Wlad of a different time....

That Wlad gave up height and reach, that Wlad leaned in and was vulnerable to various punches AND Sanders was a southpaw.

Today's Wladimir fights tall, he utilizes his reach, he doesn't allow fighting on the inside, he doesn't allow the other fighter to mix it up and is economical with his punches.

The reckless version of Wlad is looooong gone, now he's just a dominant heavyweight champion.

I forsee a fight that has Wlad's opponent waiting for an opening that never comes and eating punches until he can no longer continue

[1-hit Wonder]

Frankly General Bulldog, do a tiny bit of research before calling a fighter a manufactured product. Because frankly, your conclusion that Haye is manufactered doesnt stand up in light of the facts.

Haye has fought 25 fights, in that time he has become unified cruiserweight champ (22nd fight) and current WBA heavyweight titlist.

He has only fought 4 fighters with losing records in his career. His 1st, 3rd, 5th and 6th fights.

He fought 2 ex world titlists in his 10th and 11th fights respectively.

He is a former bronzer medalist in the amatuer world championships.

He has promoted himself and has not had the Frank Warren mismatches and filler fights. He has made his own way without the help of any big-time promotion or hype courtesy of the afformentioned devil man.

Now compare these FACTS against any current fighter you wish. I think you'll find that Haye's resume stands up to comparison.

Frankly, calling Haye a manufactered champion is the most perposterous thing ive heard on these forums for a very long time.

[rjj tszyu]

Well Lyle remember the last man Wlad fought with GENUINE power and hand speed?? It was Corey Sanders (the same man who couldn't stop British CW Johnny Nelson) and what happened there?? Wlad got the shite knocked out of him. Now to me Wlad is the one begging to be exploited by Hayes strengths. And if you think Haye will fight either Klitschko in the manner of any of his other HW fights then your totally delusional. We all know boxing is a game of tactics and skill and at the moment Haye is quickly developing in both skill and ability to follow a tactical game.

That was a different Wlad of a different time....

That Wlad gave up height and reach, that Wlad leaned in and was vulnerable to various punches AND Sanders was a southpaw.

Today's Wladimir fights tall, he utilizes his reach, he doesn't allow fighting on the inside, he doesn't allow the other fighter to mix it up and is economical with his punches.

The reckless version of Wlad is looooong gone, now he's just a dominant heavyweight champion.

I forsee a fight that has Wlad's opponent waiting for an opening that never comes and eating punches until he can no longer continue

Well to me it was the big shot Wlad took with about 1 min and 2 secs remaining in the 1st round that started the rot and in that shot he was just caught by the speed of Sanders and was upright at that point certainly not leaning in. Wlad has always been something of a cautious fighter. He has never been one to get in a brawl from what I have seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YboPBVOHn9Q

[Fenster]

@Fenster
Pac may be the last man at 140 and we all know he's not fighting there again, but it is generally recognized that Bradley is the defacto "man" at 140 right now, the guy to beat. Surely you're not suggesting that Con boy is more legitimate than Bradley at 140?

And Haye at the HW division just like Khan at 140 is a manufactured champ. People should Stop bringing up his cruiserweight reign, it means didley squat at HW. By that logic we might as well used Pac's reign at 130 to say that he's accomplished a lot at Welterweight.

Mark my words, Haye will be fighting a Eddie Chambers, Adamek, guys that are iffy at HW. He's going to avoid the Klits for the next 2 years and hopes that they either lose, become shot, or in serious decline to take them on. He for sure ain't taking on a Arreola either or even a Povetkin.

BTW, it's kind of funny that many on this board has been calling either Pac or Mayweather as cherry picking fighters that don't take real challenges, but for Haye everything's a-okay with the Klitschko debacle and his little foray into the HW division fighting guys like Barret, Ruiz, etc.

Bradley currently rates above Khan at 140 because he's spent his entire career in the division and been "world" champ for two years. Khan has had two fights there. Bradley is not THE man though. He is an alphabet holder like Khan. You can't just pick and choose who the legit champ is when it comes to alphabets. They are all phoney "world" champions.

As for Haye - I agree nobody should class him as the heavyweight champion of the world. He is an alphabet holder like Bradley and Khan.

Manufactured champion equals everyone bar a handful of fighters

[El Kabong]

Well to me it was the big shot Wlad took with about 1 min and 2 secs remaining in the 1st round that started the rot and in that shot he was just caught by the speed of Sanders and was upright at that point certainly not leaning in. Wlad has always been something of a cautious fighter. He has never been one to get in a brawl from what I have seen.

Once again, straight punch, southpaw, and Wlad did not utilize height, reach, or his jab in that fight. He's a completely different fighter now and if this version of Wlad fought that version of Sanders it would be a completely different fight, Wlad would dominate him.

[ono]

David Haye in my opinion is another Amir Khan or should I say Con?

Just like Con boy he picks up an alphabet strap by fighting the worst champion in the division in Con boy's case it was Kotelnik, in Haye's case Valuev. Valuev retained his belt via controversial decision against Holyfield and Kotelnik via controversial decision against Maidana. Just like Con boy he is also the holder of the WBA belt. Arguably the worst major organization out there with super champions and interim champions. And he also defended his strap against a weak mandatory, in Con boy's case Salita and Haye's case Ruiz (now all of a sudden people are acting like Ruiz was elite.)

Haye and Con boy also ducked the real champ of the division and the elite contenders. Con boy ducks Maidana, an somewhat elite contender with dangerous power, and Tim Bradley considered by many to be the man of the 140 pounders. Haye ducks an elite contender in Vitali (with the WBC strap) and punked out against the champ/man of the HW division, Wladimir.

Haye just like con boy gets hyped up, so called savior of the HW division and will supposedly beat the Klit Bros easily.

Both Con boy and Haye are what boxing fans like me would like to called manufactured "champs." And please stop calling Haye the HW champ, he's not, that's like calling Con boy 140 pound champ, he's not. Last I checked Wladimir is still the man at HW and Bradley is the man at 140. Having a trinket don't mean shit in today's boxing.

What I just typed out is the truth. Ain't no exaggerating anything.

What a shit thread.

He had stellar early opposition and by his 15th fight he had ko'd the European Champion inside 1 minute. He also has a solid win over Fragomeni before going to Paris to ko Mormeck. He then destroyed Enzo Mac's career before his 3 wins at Heavyweight.

Whilst he isn't the 'man' at Heavyweight, he's certainly no more manufactured than 95% of the fighters out there.

Even the Khan dig is pathetic. He's a young fighter, constantly improving and constantly upping his level of opposition. Again, he isn't the man at 140, but then again nobody is. Why would he take the Maidana fight when he can make much more money fighting stylistically easier fights? If Maidana is as good as you think he is, surely he'll still be around when Khan's gains more exposure. In that case, the fight will make much more money. Khan's not an idiot, he isn't going to blow his load for little reward right now, when he can chalk up the dough, increase his popularity and take the fight when the guys outside of a Boxing forum know who Maidana is...if that time ever comes.

You're living in a dream world if you think any young champion will risk his career to take on a high risk, low reward fight, especially when he's already been ko'd in a similar scenario.

[generalbulldog]

Frankly General Bulldog, do a tiny bit of research before calling a fighter a manufactured product. Because frankly, your conclusion that Haye is manufactered doesnt stand up in light of the facts.

Haye has fought 25 fights, in that time he has become unified cruiserweight champ (22nd fight) and current WBA heavyweight titlist.

He has only fought 4 fighters with losing records in his career. His 1st, 3rd, 5th and 6th fights.

He fought 2 ex world titlists in his 10th and 11th fights respectively.

He is a former bronzer medalist in the amatuer world championships.

He has promoted himself and has not had the Frank Warren mismatches and filler fights. He has made his own way without the help of any big-time promotion or hype courtesy of the afformentioned devil man.

Now compare these FACTS against any current fighter you wish. I think you'll find that Haye's resume stands up to comparison.

Frankly, calling Haye a manufactered champion is the most perposterous thing ive heard on these forums for a very long time.

Okay let me be exact. An manufactured HW champion. Heavyweight! Get it? I was talking about his HW "reign." The guy punked out not once, but twice against the Klit bros. And of course half of this board were excusing that fact as the Klits offering him a bad contract.

I can also name a bunch of fighters that blows away his resume. Starting with the 2 current faces of boxing and the 2 old timers fighting yesterday.

@Fenster, fair enough if you see Bradley as just an alphabet title holder, but his resume blows away what Khan has done. And the guy fights any guy in his division. You can't say that about Con boy.

Yes people have said, and I have agreed that Wlad does not have a fan friendly style, but hey he's the man of the division. Until someone beats him.

[porkypara]

All through his pro carrer Haye has foguth the best avalible opponents.

Out of the 3 so called world heavyweight champions Haye tried to arange a fight with the hardest 2 but a fight could not be made for what ever reason.

So its only natural to go after the only other champ still out there who was Value in this case.

Haye had to fight Ruiz or be stripped of the belt,Work it out for your self.

The reality is Haye wants to fight the best out there even if it means fighting men who are 3 or 4 stone heavier.

Is he the best HW in the world right now,proberly not.But is he a manufactured champ.NO WAY!

[ono]

Frankly General Bulldog, do a tiny bit of research before calling a fighter a manufactured product. Because frankly, your conclusion that Haye is manufactered doesnt stand up in light of the facts.

Haye has fought 25 fights, in that time he has become unified cruiserweight champ (22nd fight) and current WBA heavyweight titlist.

He has only fought 4 fighters with losing records in his career. His 1st, 3rd, 5th and 6th fights.

He fought 2 ex world titlists in his 10th and 11th fights respectively.

He is a former bronzer medalist in the amatuer world championships.

He has promoted himself and has not had the Frank Warren mismatches and filler fights. He has made his own way without the help of any big-time promotion or hype courtesy of the afformentioned devil man.

Now compare these FACTS against any current fighter you wish. I think you'll find that Haye's resume stands up to comparison.

Frankly, calling Haye a manufactered champion is the most perposterous thing ive heard on these forums for a very long time.

Okay let me be exact. An manufactured HW champion. Heavyweight! Get it? I was talking about his HW "reign." The guy punked out not once, but twice against the Klit bros. And of course half of this board were excusing that fact as the Klits offering him a bad contract.

I can also name a bunch of fighters that blows away his resume. Starting with the 2 current faces of boxing and the 2 old timers fighting yesterday.

@Fenster, fair enough if you see Bradley as just an alphabet title holder, but his resume blows away what Khan has done. And the guy fights any guy in his division. You can't say that about Con boy.

Yes people have said, and I have agreed that Wlad does not have a fan friendly style, but hey he's the man of the division. Until someone beats him.

Maybe so, but if Kahn beats Malignaggi, then he won't be far behind him in terms of resume. I don't see the deal either way, both fighters have so much time in front of them. You can bitch about Khan all you want but he's stepping up the level of opposition much quicker than Calzaghe and Hatton did and they've both had very good careers.

Haye didn't punk the Klit fight. The reason he pulled out was down to the TV deal. Basically the only money he was making from the fight would have been from the ppv sales from Setanta. Setanta went bankrput, therefore np pay for Haye. Obviously you'd want him to fight for free, but in the real world it doesn't work like that.

[generalbulldog]

David Haye in my opinion is another Amir Khan or should I say Con?

Just like Con boy he picks up an alphabet strap by fighting the worst champion in the division in Con boy's case it was Kotelnik, in Haye's case Valuev. Valuev retained his belt via controversial decision against Holyfield and Kotelnik via controversial decision against Maidana. Just like Con boy he is also the holder of the WBA belt. Arguably the worst major organization out there with super champions and interim champions. And he also defended his strap against a weak mandatory, in Con boy's case Salita and Haye's case Ruiz (now all of a sudden people are acting like Ruiz was elite.)

Haye and Con boy also ducked the real champ of the division and the elite contenders. Con boy ducks Maidana, an somewhat elite contender with dangerous power, and Tim Bradley considered by many to be the man of the 140 pounders. Haye ducks an elite contender in Vitali (with the WBC strap) and punked out against the champ/man of the HW division, Wladimir.

Haye just like con boy gets hyped up, so called savior of the HW division and will supposedly beat the Klit Bros easily.

Both Con boy and Haye are what boxing fans like me would like to called manufactured "champs." And please stop calling Haye the HW champ, he's not, that's like calling Con boy 140 pound champ, he's not. Last I checked Wladimir is still the man at HW and Bradley is the man at 140. Having a trinket don't mean shit in today's boxing.

What I just typed out is the truth. Ain't no exaggerating anything.

What a shit thread.

He had stellar early opposition and by his 15th fight he had ko'd the European Champion inside 1 minute. He also has a solid win over Fragomeni before going to Paris to ko Mormeck. He then destroyed Enzo Mac's career before his 3 wins at Heavyweight.

Whilst he isn't the 'man' at Heavyweight, he's certainly no more manufactured than 95% of the fighters out there.

Even the Khan dig is pathetic. He's a young fighter, constantly improving and constantly upping his level of opposition. Again, he isn't the man at 140, but then again nobody is. Why would he take the Maidana fight when he can make much more money fighting stylistically easier fights? If Maidana is as good as you think he is, surely he'll still be around when Khan's gains more exposure. In that case, the fight will make much more money. Khan's not an idiot, he isn't going to blow his load for little reward right now, when he can chalk up the dough, increase his popularity and take the fight when the guys outside of a Boxing forum know who Maidana is...if that time ever comes.

You're living in a dream world if you think any young champion will risk his career to take on a high risk, low reward fight, especially when he's already been ko'd in a similar scenario.

Then that to me right there says he's nothing more than a manufactured champ. we've been through this before and your excuse is "he's only 23!" That's right go call out a shot Erik Morales to fight or maybe he can fight a 1 eye past his prime Barerra again. He wanted to fight Marquez because he saw a diminishing fighter, probably thought he was shot and wanted him.

And about Haye, Heavyweight people. I don't care and most of the boxing world doesn't care about his crusierweight record. Back in the day no one gave a damn about Holyfield's crusierweight record, they only care what he will do at HW.

I mean doesn't Haye's fans always compare Haye to Holyfield most of the time based on the cruiserweight connection? Same standard should be applied here, if it did to people judging Holyfield.

[ninjaspy3]

Frankly General Bulldog, do a tiny bit of research before calling a fighter a manufactured product. Because frankly, your conclusion that Haye is manufactered doesnt stand up in light of the facts.

Haye has fought 25 fights, in that time he has become unified cruiserweight champ (22nd fight) and current WBA heavyweight titlist.

He has only fought 4 fighters with losing records in his career. His 1st, 3rd, 5th and 6th fights.

He fought 2 ex world titlists in his 10th and 11th fights respectively.

He is a former bronzer medalist in the amatuer world championships.

He has promoted himself and has not had the Frank Warren mismatches and filler fights. He has made his own way without the help of any big-time promotion or hype courtesy of the afformentioned devil man.

Now compare these FACTS against any current fighter you wish. I think you'll find that Haye's resume stands up to comparison.

Frankly, calling Haye a manufactered champion is the most perposterous thing ive heard on these forums for a very long time.

Okay let me be exact. An manufactured HW champion. Heavyweight! Get it? I was talking about his HW "reign." The guy punked out not once, but twice against the Klit bros. And of course half of this board were excusing that fact as the Klits offering him a bad contract.

I can also name a bunch of fighters that blows away his resume. Starting with the 2 current faces of boxing and the 2 old timers fighting yesterday.

@Fenster, fair enough if you see Bradley as just an alphabet title holder, but his resume blows away what Khan has done. And the guy fights any guy in his division. You can't say that about Con boy.

Yes people have said, and I have agreed that Wlad does not have a fan friendly style, but hey he's the man of the division. Until someone beats him.

Why do you keep stating this as if it were a fact?

And what difference does the resume make once you hold a belt? I mean, resume or no, at that point you are a belt holder.

And to the idea of manufactured champ, if it's so easy, then why cant just anyone do it? But the fact is, many people didnt do it. But for some reason, Haye and Khan have.

So obviously they have something whether people want to admit it or not. Otherwise they would not, and could not be where they are today.

[ono]

David Haye in my opinion is another Amir Khan or should I say Con?

Just like Con boy he picks up an alphabet strap by fighting the worst champion in the division in Con boy's case it was Kotelnik, in Haye's case Valuev. Valuev retained his belt via controversial decision against Holyfield and Kotelnik via controversial decision against Maidana. Just like Con boy he is also the holder of the WBA belt. Arguably the worst major organization out there with super champions and interim champions. And he also defended his strap against a weak mandatory, in Con boy's case Salita and Haye's case Ruiz (now all of a sudden people are acting like Ruiz was elite.)

Haye and Con boy also ducked the real champ of the division and the elite contenders. Con boy ducks Maidana, an somewhat elite contender with dangerous power, and Tim Bradley considered by many to be the man of the 140 pounders. Haye ducks an elite contender in Vitali (with the WBC strap) and punked out against the champ/man of the HW division, Wladimir.

Haye just like con boy gets hyped up, so called savior of the HW division and will supposedly beat the Klit Bros easily.

Both Con boy and Haye are what boxing fans like me would like to called manufactured "champs." And please stop calling Haye the HW champ, he's not, that's like calling Con boy 140 pound champ, he's not. Last I checked Wladimir is still the man at HW and Bradley is the man at 140. Having a trinket don't mean shit in today's boxing.

What I just typed out is the truth. Ain't no exaggerating anything.

What a shit thread.

He had stellar early opposition and by his 15th fight he had ko'd the European Champion inside 1 minute. He also has a solid win over Fragomeni before going to Paris to ko Mormeck. He then destroyed Enzo Mac's career before his 3 wins at Heavyweight.

Whilst he isn't the 'man' at Heavyweight, he's certainly no more manufactured than 95% of the fighters out there.

Even the Khan dig is pathetic. He's a young fighter, constantly improving and constantly upping his level of opposition. Again, he isn't the man at 140, but then again nobody is. Why would he take the Maidana fight when he can make much more money fighting stylistically easier fights? If Maidana is as good as you think he is, surely he'll still be around when Khan's gains more exposure. In that case, the fight will make much more money. Khan's not an idiot, he isn't going to blow his load for little reward right now, when he can chalk up the dough, increase his popularity and take the fight when the guys outside of a Boxing forum know who Maidana is...if that time ever comes.

You're living in a dream world if you think any young champion will risk his career to take on a high risk, low reward fight, especially when he's already been ko'd in a similar scenario.

Then that to me right there says he's nothing more than a manufactured champ. we've been through this before and your excuse is "he's only 23!" That's right go call out a shot Erik Morales to fight or maybe he can fight a 1 eye past his prime Barerra again. He wanted to fight Marquez because he saw a diminishing fighter, probably thought he was shot and wanted him.

And about Haye, Heavyweight people. I don't care and most of the boxing world doesn't care about his crusierweight record. Back in the day no one gave a damn about Holyfield's crusierweight record, they only care what he will do at HW.

I mean doesn't Haye's fans always compare Haye to Holyfield most of the time based on the cruiserweight connection? Same standard should be applied here, if it did to people judging Holyfield.

But his age has to have relevence. You can't take it out of the equation no matter how much you want to. As it stands, a resume of a past his prime Barrera, Kotelnik, Salita and Malignaggi is just as good as any other supposedly top level fighter of a similar age.

For the record it was Roach who wanted the Morales fight and it's purely down to the fact that he's only been with Khan for a short while. He still has difficiences to iron out. Even if you disagree with it, he didn't take the fight anyway so it's hardly something you should hold against him. Can't quite believe the whinge about him fighting Marquez. An opponent considered good enough for Floyd Mayweather just a few months ago. An opponent who knocked out two of the best fighters at 135. Baffling.

Like i said, the vast majority of 'world' champions have been carefully managed until they reach world level. That's a promoters job.

Don't quite understand why you'd expect people to ignore his record at Crusier. Don't see many Haye fans at all comparing him to Holyfield. Holyfield's Heavyweight record gained more importance because the pool of talent was greater at Heavyweight. Wlad and Vitali aside, the Heavies are quite embarrassing, so not sure where you're going with that one.

[Spicoli]

I can't in all fairness as a Holyfield fan call Haye a manufactured heavyweight,or champion.No...not in his class as far as I'm concerned but he put on the weight and made the transition from an established top Cruiserweight to heavyweight......where as Kahn was a pushed product,green and has until very recently honed skills and shown good improvment.

Besides...its the heavyweights.They need all the fawking help that they can get and for all of his bravado and mouth Haye is a shot in the arm.He starched a known comodity in impressive fashion lastnight.I have no doubts he'll face one of the brothers and if he does not,shame on him and too bad for the fans.

[El Kabong]

The reality is Haye wants to fight the best out there even if it means fighting men who are 3 or 4 stone heavier.

....which is why he tucked tail and ran away from fights with Wlad and Vitali?

Surely you or someone else will bring up money being the issue....was it an issue? Yes but nothing that a renegotiation couldn't fix, certainly The Klitschko's would oblige him in seeing that he got paid for his work, they aren't heartless.