Footwork Question--Pushing Off With the Trailing Foot

[HerbM]

Hey Thaiboxer

I've not read any of the posted replies from the guys. Anyways, my view is this:

Always push off the leg furthest away from the direction you are going. By pushing/thrusting off the leg rather than 'stepping and dragging', you are able to generate the explosive speed to get in, unload your shots, and get out again. This to me seems like cold, hard logic. Stepping and dragging is for journeymen heavyweights.

I've put some of this stuff on vid here. Hope it helps mate

Fran

Fran, the basics of my post consist of what you write above -- and a reference to your video on that subject.

I would greatly appreciate it -- if you find time -- if you read my responses above and criticize what you find there.

Please tell me what you think is correct, incorrect, incomplete, or irrelevant.

--
Herb

[Fran@myboxingcoach]

Herb and Co

Please accept my apologies for not taking the time to read the posts from you guys. If I've broken forum etiquette then I'm genuinely sorry and will not do it again! OK, apologies over (this doesn't count for Scrap by the way ), I've now taken the time to go through the thread and may have some additional simple points to contribute, I hope they make sense and are of use.

When considering movement, especially how far we should move, we need to really consider the implications of being in-range or out of range (at it's most simple). I like to think about boxers as operating 'on the edge of range'. It strikes me that all of the top guys hold an inate understanding of where they are in relation to their opponent....to the millimetre! Herb is exactly right to establish the understanding of not moving too far. The reason that I say this is that the difference of being in range and being out of range is inches, maybe the width of a fist is a useful gauge.

Let's take for example throwing a common three punch combination; the left (jab), right (cross) and left hook (mid range). This combination consists of 3 shots, 2 long-range and one mid-range. The starting point is that as a boxer you are 'on the edge of range'. The mechanics of the combination are (assuming that the opponent remains static):

1. Combine a push forward (only a very short distance, width of a fist) with the jab. Both skills performed at the same time, moves the boxer very quickly into range and improves the 'sting' of the jab.
2. Throw a right cross (as we are still at long range)
3. Combine a push forward with a mid-range left hook.

At the end of the combination (which at competition speed should have taken maybe half a second), you find yourself at mid-range and in a position to deliver further shots or expedite a quick escape back to 'the edge of range' with a push from the front leg. Within the combination, you have made 2 movements forward, taking you from the edge of range to mid-range, albeit that these movements combine to form a distance of only 6 to 7 inches.

A point that our friend ThaiBoxer states is that he (or she) has to transfer their weight to the leg that does the pushing (in the example the rear leg). I tend to be of the opinion that your body weight should always be central or on the back leg. Weight (or more accurately the body) should not be 'over' the front leg as this messes with balance and may make those shots that we occasionally get hit with hurt a lot more! Keep that weight central or on the back leg Thai, get use to the feeling, build those neural pathways mate!

On a final point, and relating to Herb's post, don't restrict yourself to four ways of movement. Think of a compass on the ground, and you can move in any direction on that compass, building around the 8 main points. As an orthodox boxer, it's is very difficult to move diagonally right and forward (north east). It feels very unnatural and awkward. The way to get around this awkwardness is to be pragmatic. Seek to move just ahead of east. You are still moving diagonally forward and to the right, but a little more subtle. Mastering sidesteps is very important. Combining sidesteps with slips and rolls successfully is pure gold!!!!

I hope this is of use, and again my apologies for not reading the efforts of other members...it's not like me as I am usually quite thorough about this.

Catch you soon, from this old over-the-hill palooka (for your benefit Scrap)!

Fran

[HerbM]

No apology necessary. To my knowledge you broke NO forum etiquette.

My request was merely because I wanted to take advantage of your experience to review what my thoughts on this, so I asked you to read and criticize my postings.

Of course, you are right about movement really being 360 degrees, and that thinking of it in at least 8 basic directions is an excellent approach -- I started to mention the diagonals in fact, but failed to do that.

Your explaination about right and forward being the toughest direction (for orthodox fighters) is in line with my discussion of the difficulty of "pushing" then the pushing (front) toes are as close to that new destination as anything else -- it's sort of a tractor pull instead of a push.

In that case we are moving FORWARD (and right) but having to move our RIGHT FOOT so it cannot (keep) pushing as it steps and we pivot on the left which is supposed to be pushing.


--
HerbM

[HerbM]

...When considering movement, especially how far we should move, we need to really consider the implications of being in-range or out of range (at it's most simple). I like to think about boxers as operating 'on the edge of range'. It strikes me that all of the top guys hold an inate understanding of where they are in relation to their opponent....to the millimetre! Herb is exactly right to establish the understanding of not moving too far. The reason that I say this is that the difference of being in range and being out of range is inches, maybe the width of a fist is a useful gauge.
...

Since reading the above I have been thinking about it quite a bit.

I would love to see your expand on this topic, Fran.

If there is anything you can do for a video it would make a great addition to your MyBoxingCoach.com videos since I don't believe there is much -- certainly NOT ENOUGH -- discussion of this elsewhere.

Practically no book nor any video that I have seen goes into this topic.

I am also a student of AMOK! which is primarily centered on knife defense and knife fighting, and this is perhaps THE CRITICAL distinction when facing a knife -- even in AMOK! there could be more discussion and practice for moving so as to move in an out of range.

Tom Sotis (the developer of AMOK!) makes the following assertions:

1. You cannot be invincible
2. You can achieve TEMPORARY INVINCIBILITY

The idea -- as I understand it -- is to achieve a combination of body positions, mutual positions, distance, based on the skills of the combatants so that you are temporarily safe.

There is no way to STAY safe like this except by constantly moving and changing these relationships so as to find NEW positions of safety.

IF a fighter can move into range, get hits, and get out of range (or into a positions from which the other fighter cannot strike back) then victory is certainly achievable and may even be highly predictable.

In knife work you literally live or die by such concerns of distance.

My main style of knife fighting it to arrange it so that my opponent LITERALLY cannot touch/hit/cut me in one beat, but where as soon as he moves I can cut him.

There is a lot of overlap between the knife (held in the front hand) and the jab in boxing -- this was a big part of my decision to take up boxing since we don't have an AMOK! group here locally.

In knife defense you MUST NOT "trade blows" you must instead endeavor to hit your opponent without getting hit yourself.

--
HerbM

[ThaiBoxerWithNoHandsSon]

On a final point, and relating to Herb's post, don't restrict yourself to four ways of movement. Think of a compass on the ground, and you can move in any direction on that compass, building around the 8 main points. As an orthodox boxer, it's is very difficult to move diagonally right and forward (north east). It feels very unnatural and awkward. The way to get around this awkwardness is to be pragmatic. Seek to move just ahead of east. You are still moving diagonally forward and to the right, but a little more subtle. Mastering sidesteps is very important. Combining sidesteps with slips and rolls successfully is pure gold!!!!

I hope this is of use, and again my apologies for not reading the efforts of other members...it's not like me as I am usually quite thorough about this.

Catch you soon, from this old over-the-hill palooka (for your benefit Scrap)!

Fran

Great post Fran, thanks for stopping by. Find your videos on your site very helpful.

I just have one question. When moving diagonally right, how do you initiate the movement? Is it by pushing off the back leg and stepping forward at an angle, or by pushing off the left leg and letting the back leg come forward a little as you move right? I personally find going diagonally right to be easier when I push off the left leg. Is that breaking the fundamentals?

[Scrap]

the thing being, technicaly the back foot isnt really a trailing foot. It orchestrates most things distance and balance,plus direction. It doesnt trail

[Fran@myboxingcoach]

Hey ThaiBoxer

Pushing off the left (front) leg is not a problem, and you are not breaking fundamentals as long as you don't allow your weight to go 'over' your front leg i.e. don't let your nose go beyond the line of your front knee (hoping that this makes sense).

Fran