WikiLeaks in trouble

[amat]

Come on guys we aren't conditioned for war like they are. Andre I don't know if he's being critical or not but he's right, these guys are in a situation most of us could never imagine ourselves in and we don't know how we would react. They are essentially trained killers, actually killing. Most likely we would do the same thing. BTW they weren't all innocent civilians and the dude's camera (RIP) did look like a weapon, they clearly thought he had an RPG. To say they are intentionally massacring civilians is a huuuuge stretch. The photographers were running around with guys who had AK-47's and firing on troops, they had to know there life was in danger. They had buddies getting fired on of course they are going to want some blood. The ground I'd ask everyone to reserve their judgements, these guys were placed in war. They are going to have a different train of thought then us keyboard slamming liberals. It's sad because these guys are going to come home, and obviously they are going to come home with a completely different mind with stories and views that normal civilians just couldn'tarelate to. This is a war where nobody is following the rules from the American government to the insurgency fighting in Iraq, these guys aren't holier then though all the time either.

[Kirkland Laing]

When I saw 97 civilians dead I expected it was one of those cruise missile attacks in Afghanistan that take out a few houses somewhere and kill lots of people, I never thought it'd be in Iraq. I'm not surprised at the media ignoring it, it's what they do. They're basically a mouthpiece for the US army in Iraq/NATO in Afghanistan. Here's another good example of this :

How Americans are propagandized about Afghanistan - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com

This guy has a lot more to say about Afghanistan and Iraq on his blog. Careful now, he's a loony left liberal.

[Kev]

Come on guys we aren't conditioned for war like they are. Andre I don't know if he's being critical or not but he's right, these guys are in a situation most of us could never imagine ourselves in and we don't know how we would react. They are essentially trained killers, actually killing. Most likely we would do the same thing. BTW they weren't all innocent civilians and the dude's camera (RIP) did look like a weapon, they clearly thought he had an RPG. To say they are intentionally massacring civilians is a huuuuge stretch. The photographers were running around with guys who had AK-47's and firing on troops, they had to know there life was in danger. They had buddies getting fired on of course they are going to want some blood. The ground I'd ask everyone to reserve their judgements, these guys were placed in war. They are going to have a different train of thought then us keyboard slamming liberals. It's sad because these guys are going to come home, and obviously they are going to come home with a completely different mind with stories and views that normal civilians just couldn'tarelate to. This is a war where nobody is following the rules from the American government to the insurgency fighting in Iraq, these guys aren't holier then though all the time either.

Good post Amat, it sure as hell did like a RPG being poked around the corner.

I guess it would easier to hate those guys if their kind had shot at you and killed your buddies, although to be fair I think us Brits lost more soldiers in that war thanks to your guys than the Iraqi's and we still showed restraint.

[Nameless]

Come on guys we aren't conditioned for war like they are. Andre I don't know if he's being critical or not but he's right, these guys are in a situation most of us could never imagine ourselves in and we don't know how we would react. They are essentially trained killers, actually killing. Most likely we would do the same thing. BTW they weren't all innocent civilians and the dude's camera (RIP) did look like a weapon, they clearly thought he had an RPG. To say they are intentionally massacring civilians is a huuuuge stretch. The photographers were running around with guys who had AK-47's and firing on troops, they had to know there life was in danger. They had buddies getting fired on of course they are going to want some blood. The ground I'd ask everyone to reserve their judgements, these guys were placed in war. They are going to have a different train of thought then us keyboard slamming liberals. It's sad because these guys are going to come home, and obviously they are going to come home with a completely different mind with stories and views that normal civilians just couldn'tarelate to. This is a war where nobody is following the rules from the American government to the insurgency fighting in Iraq, these guys aren't holier then though all the time either.

I agree they have a different training than us. However, it's kinda hard to neglect how they talk about the peoples they shoot in, how they confuse camera for guns and how they are extremely eager to shoot, especially when you see 2 kids in a Van and that the peoples picking up the wounded have obviously no weapons and no belligerent intentions, if they wanted them to leave the corpses and peoples on the ground they only had to shoot 2-3 rounds around and you can be sure they would have left right away. I do not only question their behaviors but also how they were talking and laughing, not caring they did shoot on children, I understand the different frame of mind but it's not enough to forgive the whole situation an their whole behaviors during the "encounter".

[amat]

Did you see the camera? There's a bunch of dudes with AK-47s and a long range photography lens poking out of a corner. I'm sorry but they aren't inhuman, they were eager to shoot because an RPG has killed a lot of soldiers, they also mistook the camera for an RPG on the ground. They didn't see that they had kids either.

The war is fucked, but it's not our place to judge imo.

[Kev]

Did you see the camera? There's a bunch of dudes with AK-47s and a long range photography lens poking out of a corner. I'm sorry but they aren't inhuman, they were eager to shoot because an RPG has killed a lot of soldiers, they also mistook the camera for an RPG on the ground. They didn't see that they had kids either.

The war is fucked, but it's not our place to judge imo.

I think Amat has a point. I mean when you're fighting a war the other side are by definition 'the enemy', and you're unlikely to view them with a great deal of compassion.

I mean some little twats threw a small stone through my open bedroom window a few weeks ago just missing my laptop screen and I'd have happily seen them opened up and gutted for it.

If one of them fired a mortar and killed my buddy I would want to rain down fiery death on all hoodies.

[ono]

Did you see the camera? There's a bunch of dudes with AK-47s and a long range photography lens poking out of a corner. I'm sorry but they aren't inhuman, they were eager to shoot because an RPG has killed a lot of soldiers, they also mistook the camera for an RPG on the ground. They didn't see that they had kids either.

The war is fucked, but it's not our place to judge imo.

Disagree. They couldn't wait to open fire. Backed up by the fact that you can hear one of them saying 'come let me shoot' and 'look at those dead bastards'.

I fail to see why somebody would casually set up an RPG while an attack helicopter is patrolling the sky above them. And if soldiers are mistaking weapons for photography equipment surely you have to question their place in the military in the first place.

The worst part is the part where they shoot at the van containing children. It makes me sick when one of the troops says 'you shouldn't bring kids to a warzone', quite clearly forgetting the fact that it's only a warzone because you invaded the fucking country. It's also worth noting that its illegal to shoot at somebody who's moving an injured person out of a warzone and it's a war crime to kill somebody who is wounded and crawling away from the area of conflict.

Just out of interest this is what the American military said in response to the incident at the time...

The American military said in a statement late Thursday that 11 people had been killed: nine insurgents and two civilians. According to the statement, American troops were conducting a raid when they were hit by small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades. The American troops called in reinforcements and attack helicopters. In the ensuing fight, the statement said, the two Reuters employees and nine insurgents were killed.

"There is no question that coalition forces were clearly engaged in combat operations against a hostile force," said Lt. Col. Scott Bleichwehl, a spokesman for the multinational forces in Baghdad.

I hope they throw the book at those responsible.

[JazMerkin]

I get sick of the 'war is tough' argument to excuse whatever a soldier does. Do we excuse the 9/11 hijackers because they felt they were in a war?

The first part shooting at the journalists and the others is wrong, but understandable to a point in context. However, the shoot-up of the van has no excuse. There is literally no justification for that & anyone who tries to is imo an idiot. There were no weapons there & they were just collecting the wounded. It seemed like those guys thought they were playing Call Of Duty or something, there was so little compassion there. It should however be pointed out that the US soldiers on the ground did show it, rushing to get the children to hospital.

It really makes you think about all those times you hear of 'insurgents' being killed. We just happened to see the video this time.

[ono]

I get sick of the 'war is tough' argument to excuse whatever a soldier does. Do we excuse the 9/11 hijackers because they felt they were in a war?

The first part shooting at the journalists and the others is wrong, but understandable to a point in context. However, the shoot-up of the van has no excuse. There is literally no justification for that & anyone who tries to is imo an idiot. There were no weapons there & they were just collecting the wounded. It seemed like those guys thought they were playing Call Of Duty or something, there was so little compassion there. It should however be pointed out that the US soldiers on the ground did show it, rushing to get the children to hospital.

It really makes you think about all those times you hear of 'insurgents' being killed. We just happened to see the video this time.

My immediate reaction was to question how frequent this sort of thing happens. I mean this one was only brought to our attention because two Reuters reporters were murdered.

[AdamGB]

It's an awful thing, but I'm not really in much of a position to judge and I doubt that very many of you are either.

These men are mentally conditioned into a certain mind set... one I doubt you can comprehend unless you've been in it.

I have mates who've been over in Afghan and Iraq, when they come back it takes weeks for them to adjust... you can see it when you go out with them into a club or a bar... everything is a possible threat to them. Completely on edge.

Shit... I've heard their storys... when they've been out on patrol, you're in a convoy and you don't know if the woman in a Burkah crossing the road infront of you with what appears to be a pram is doing just that - or whether she's taking her time to halt the convoy so that the houses you're driving past full of people who hate you can fire RPG you. Every time the convoy stops must be sickening

You don't know if a guy is just dialing a number on his mobile phone or if he's arming an IED planted in the spot you're about to walk over.

The suicide bombers used to just try and walk up to check points and get as close as possible before detonating, the warnings and distance tolerance have gotten so low that now they just strap up on a bike and whack the accelarator... my mates lucky a guy managed to hit the front tyre when he was at a checkpoint... only way to stop the bike without blowing the fucker up and setting off the bomb.

Until I've had to face down somebody who doesn't understand me walking towards me... not knowing whether I'm about to gun down an innocent man who doesn't know he's not meant to be here or whether he wants to blow my face off I'm not going to nor could I judge any of the soldiers over there.

Not only are the conditioned to act and think in a certain way, ignoring or eliminating other thought processes but I imagine it doesn't take long being exposed to that sort of enviroment to completely transform inside of your head.

[AdamGB]

I get sick of the 'war is tough' argument to excuse whatever a soldier does. Do we excuse the 9/11 hijackers because they felt they were in a war?

It's a bit far fetched to compare mistakenly shooting at some people you perceived as a threat to you/your comrades to deliberately flying jetliners into two skyscrapers full that you KNEW were office workers - not soldiers.

I don't see the double standard.

The lack of compassion is disturbing though, which is the point I'm making - to my knowledge none of us have been in or been conditioned to function in a warzone.

[Gandalf]

I think it is disgusting, but not all that surprising. This is a nation that invades countries illegally and tortures people after all. It's no great surprise that a sizeable proportion of the troops are dumb, immature, brainwashed, gung-ho morons, who imagine themselves inside some kind of 'fun' computer game. I would shoot each one in the head as punishment and let that be that oh, and maybe shoot a few of their kids.

Kirkland makes the good point about the US media not really tackling the issue. TBH I really don't think America has a properly functioning media at all. And that is sad because everybody should be informed about pertinent issues. It's all out there on the web though if you are willing to look for it, but to rely on mainstream US sources is just a dead end.

[ono]

I get sick of the 'war is tough' argument to excuse whatever a soldier does. Do we excuse the 9/11 hijackers because they felt they were in a war?

It's a bit far fetched to compare mistakenly shooting at some people you perceived as a threat to you/your comrades to deliberately flying jetliners into two skyscrapers full that you KNEW were office workers - not soldiers.

I don't see the double standard.

The lack of compassion is disturbing though, which is the point I'm making - to my knowledge none of us have been in or been conditioned to function in a warzone.

The idea of the gunmen being merely mistaken went out of the window when they shot at the people helping the wounded guy - The van with the kids in it.

Triggy happy gunmen who've played too much Call of Duty sprung to mind. It makes you wonder how often this sort of thing happens. Not just by the US military mind.