Lucian Bute

[Kev]

I go with ICB there, I did look at this fight countless time and beside one round, perhaps 2 if I am very generous (including the 12th), I objectively don't see which ones Andrade could have possibly won. Can you really tell me that you've really seen Andrade winning 4 rounds in this fight? He got battered all fight long till the 12th where he almost got the k.o (that's the part where we do disagree if I recall ).

I've watched it and I see three rounds for him, although I could give him four. But, are you honestly going to say the judges were biased against Bute? He most certainly didn't win every round, that's one of those myths that comes with the fight not being fresh. It's like the 'Shane battered Margarito for the whole 9 rounds', when Margarito actually probably won the 5th round.

So just because Antonio Margarito, may have won one round. That makes it not a complete wipeout ? unless im reading that wrong ?

IMO Shane Mosley did totally dominate Antonio Margarito. He let his foot off the gas in one round, but again Antonio Margarito's punches were very ineffective.

He did batter Antonio Margarito for pretty much the whole fight, and even in the one debatable round. Shane Mosley still stung Antonio Margarito, and landed the much better punches.

I'll tell you a fight that was seriously overrated, to regards of another fighter suposedly dominating another fighter. And thats James Toney vs Michael Nunn.

Michael Nunn won the early rounds, but James Toney was coming on late. And he had won 3 rounds in a row, aswell as winning the 11th round. Before he even KO'ed Michael Nunn in the 11th round.

Everyone makes out it was some kind of lucky punch, from James Toney when it clearly wasn't. It was James Toney wearing him down late.

But you could say the same about Froch against Taylor, and even the first Andrade Bute fight.

Either Bute is completely glass jawed and got ko'd the first and only time Andrade landed anything, or else Andrade was being effective and getting to Bute prior to the 12th round in order to exhaust him.

It can't work both ways.

Bute is a good fighter but he's got a big question mark over his durability imo. I can't think of any fighter in history who has almost got knocked out like he did in that last round against a limited opponent who hasn't then gone on to have stamina and late round issues in future fights.

He's always going to have that vulnurability, just like Jermain Taylor, Cory Spinks etc.

He will still win fights, maybe some against top opposition but that's not going to go away.

If he gets into a dog fight with a Froch, Abraham or Pascal, the last rounds are going to be very difficult for him.

Yes he's looked great since against mediocre opposition, but he hasn't gone past 5 rounds so his stamina hasn't been on display.

He will crumble and get knocked out AT LEAST 3 times in his career if he fights on for the next 5 years or so.

I said the same about Miranda, after he fought Alan Green that he'd be knocked out at least 6 times by the time his career was over, and that's well on the way to fruition.

Not claiming I have anything like Taeth level boxing understanding, I just like to talk negatively about the fighters I don't like, and then if I'm proved right, Mijares, and soon to be Donaire etc, I like to create a gleeful little post pointing out how cool I am.

[DaxxKahn]

I've watched it and I see three rounds for him, although I could give him four. But, are you honestly going to say the judges were biased against Bute? He most certainly didn't win every round, that's one of those myths that comes with the fight not being fresh. It's like the 'Shane battered Margarito for the whole 9 rounds', when Margarito actually probably won the 5th round.

So just because Antonio Margarito, may have won one round. That makes it not a complete wipeout ? unless im reading that wrong ?

IMO Shane Mosley did totally dominate Antonio Margarito. He let his foot off the gas in one round, but again Antonio Margarito's punches were very ineffective.

He did batter Antonio Margarito for pretty much the whole fight, and even in the one debatable round. Shane Mosley still stung Antonio Margarito, and landed the much better punches.

I'll tell you a fight that was seriously overrated, to regards of another fighter suposedly dominating another fighter. And thats James Toney vs Michael Nunn.

Michael Nunn won the early rounds, but James Toney was coming on late. And he had won 3 rounds in a row, aswell as winning the 11th round. Before he even KO'ed Michael Nunn in the 11th round.

Everyone makes out it was some kind of lucky punch, from James Toney when it clearly wasn't. It was James Toney wearing him down late.

But you could say the same about Froch against Taylor, and even the first Andrade Bute fight.

Either Bute is completely glass jawed and got ko'd the first and only time Andrade landed anything, or else Andrade was being effective and getting to Bute prior to the 12th round in order to exhaust him.

It can't work both ways.

Bute is a good fighter but he's got a big question mark over his durability imo. I can't think of any fighter in history who has almost got knocked out like he did in that last round against a limited opponent who hasn't then gone on to have stamina and late round issues in future fights.

He's always going to have that vulnurability, just like Jermain Taylor, Cory Spinks etc.

He will still win fights, maybe some against top opposition but that's not going to go away.

If he gets into a dog fight with a Froch, Abraham or Pascal, the last rounds are going to be very difficult for him.

Yes he's looked great since against mediocre opposition, but he hasn't gone past 5 rounds so his stamina hasn't been on display.

He will crumble and get knocked out AT LEAST 3 times in his career if he fights on for the next 5 years or so.

I said the same about Miranda, after he fought Alan Green that he'd be knocked out at least 6 times by the time his career was over, and that's well on the way to fruition.

Not claiming I have anything like Taeth level boxing understanding, I just like to talk negatively about the fighters I don't like, and then if I'm proved right, Mijares, and soon to be Donaire etc, I like to create a gleeful little post pointing out how cool I am.

The first Andrade fight was tough and physically taxing...I just don't think Bute was prepared for it...I mean who is prepared for a guy who you hit hit hit and keeps coming?......

Bute is not Glass jawed and I agree the big question on him is stamina...But Stamina is easily fixable...Just more cardio in the gym

[PRIDE OF BOSTON]

So just because Antonio Margarito, may have won one round. That makes it not a complete wipeout ? unless im reading that wrong ?

IMO Shane Mosley did totally dominate Antonio Margarito. He let his foot off the gas in one round, but again Antonio Margarito's punches were very ineffective.

He did batter Antonio Margarito for pretty much the whole fight, and even in the one debatable round. Shane Mosley still stung Antonio Margarito, and landed the much better punches.

I'll tell you a fight that was seriously overrated, to regards of another fighter suposedly dominating another fighter. And thats James Toney vs Michael Nunn.

Michael Nunn won the early rounds, but James Toney was coming on late. And he had won 3 rounds in a row, aswell as winning the 11th round. Before he even KO'ed Michael Nunn in the 11th round.

Everyone makes out it was some kind of lucky punch, from James Toney when it clearly wasn't. It was James Toney wearing him down late.

But you could say the same about Froch against Taylor, and even the first Andrade Bute fight.

Either Bute is completely glass jawed and got ko'd the first and only time Andrade landed anything, or else Andrade was being effective and getting to Bute prior to the 12th round in order to exhaust him.

It can't work both ways.

Bute is a good fighter but he's got a big question mark over his durability imo. I can't think of any fighter in history who has almost got knocked out like he did in that last round against a limited opponent who hasn't then gone on to have stamina and late round issues in future fights.

He's always going to have that vulnurability, just like Jermain Taylor, Cory Spinks etc.

He will still win fights, maybe some against top opposition but that's not going to go away.

If he gets into a dog fight with a Froch, Abraham or Pascal, the last rounds are going to be very difficult for him.

Yes he's looked great since against mediocre opposition, but he hasn't gone past 5 rounds so his stamina hasn't been on display.

He will crumble and get knocked out AT LEAST 3 times in his career if he fights on for the next 5 years or so.

I said the same about Miranda, after he fought Alan Green that he'd be knocked out at least 6 times by the time his career was over, and that's well on the way to fruition.

Not claiming I have anything like Taeth level boxing understanding, I just like to talk negatively about the fighters I don't like, and then if I'm proved right, Mijares, and soon to be Donaire etc, I like to create a gleeful little post pointing out how cool I am.

The first Andrade fight was tough and physically taxing...I just don't think Bute was prepared for it...I mean who is prepared for a guy who you hit hit hit and keeps coming?......

Bute is not Glass jawed and I agree the big question on him is stamina...But Stamina is easily fixable...Just more cardio in the gym

Tell that to Jermain Taylor

[Kev]

So just because Antonio Margarito, may have won one round. That makes it not a complete wipeout ? unless im reading that wrong ?

IMO Shane Mosley did totally dominate Antonio Margarito. He let his foot off the gas in one round, but again Antonio Margarito's punches were very ineffective.

He did batter Antonio Margarito for pretty much the whole fight, and even in the one debatable round. Shane Mosley still stung Antonio Margarito, and landed the much better punches.

I'll tell you a fight that was seriously overrated, to regards of another fighter suposedly dominating another fighter. And thats James Toney vs Michael Nunn.

Michael Nunn won the early rounds, but James Toney was coming on late. And he had won 3 rounds in a row, aswell as winning the 11th round. Before he even KO'ed Michael Nunn in the 11th round.

Everyone makes out it was some kind of lucky punch, from James Toney when it clearly wasn't. It was James Toney wearing him down late.

But you could say the same about Froch against Taylor, and even the first Andrade Bute fight.

Either Bute is completely glass jawed and got ko'd the first and only time Andrade landed anything, or else Andrade was being effective and getting to Bute prior to the 12th round in order to exhaust him.

It can't work both ways.

Bute is a good fighter but he's got a big question mark over his durability imo. I can't think of any fighter in history who has almost got knocked out like he did in that last round against a limited opponent who hasn't then gone on to have stamina and late round issues in future fights.

He's always going to have that vulnurability, just like Jermain Taylor, Cory Spinks etc.

He will still win fights, maybe some against top opposition but that's not going to go away.

If he gets into a dog fight with a Froch, Abraham or Pascal, the last rounds are going to be very difficult for him.

Yes he's looked great since against mediocre opposition, but he hasn't gone past 5 rounds so his stamina hasn't been on display.

He will crumble and get knocked out AT LEAST 3 times in his career if he fights on for the next 5 years or so.

I said the same about Miranda, after he fought Alan Green that he'd be knocked out at least 6 times by the time his career was over, and that's well on the way to fruition.

Not claiming I have anything like Taeth level boxing understanding, I just like to talk negatively about the fighters I don't like, and then if I'm proved right, Mijares, and soon to be Donaire etc, I like to create a gleeful little post pointing out how cool I am.

The first Andrade fight was tough and physically taxing...I just don't think Bute was prepared for it...I mean who is prepared for a guy who you hit hit hit and keeps coming?......

Bute is not Glass jawed and I agree the big question on him is stamina...But Stamina is easily fixable...Just more cardio in the gym

You reckon? Jermain Taylor, Cory Spinks, and even Oscar De La Hoya never solved that problem.

I think he's a good fighter, I just don't think he's physically able to hang with the most durable guys. Maybe in this modern age of 12 rounders, he will be less likely to get found out. But can you imagine him going 15 rounds with the likes of Ward, Froch and Abraham if the heat got turned up?

His best chances of winning fights against top fighters will always be early, I think the last three rounds or so could test him.

[DaxxKahn]

But you could say the same about Froch against Taylor, and even the first Andrade Bute fight.

Either Bute is completely glass jawed and got ko'd the first and only time Andrade landed anything, or else Andrade was being effective and getting to Bute prior to the 12th round in order to exhaust him.

It can't work both ways.

Bute is a good fighter but he's got a big question mark over his durability imo. I can't think of any fighter in history who has almost got knocked out like he did in that last round against a limited opponent who hasn't then gone on to have stamina and late round issues in future fights.

He's always going to have that vulnurability, just like Jermain Taylor, Cory Spinks etc.

He will still win fights, maybe some against top opposition but that's not going to go away.

If he gets into a dog fight with a Froch, Abraham or Pascal, the last rounds are going to be very difficult for him.

Yes he's looked great since against mediocre opposition, but he hasn't gone past 5 rounds so his stamina hasn't been on display.

He will crumble and get knocked out AT LEAST 3 times in his career if he fights on for the next 5 years or so.

I said the same about Miranda, after he fought Alan Green that he'd be knocked out at least 6 times by the time his career was over, and that's well on the way to fruition.

Not claiming I have anything like Taeth level boxing understanding, I just like to talk negatively about the fighters I don't like, and then if I'm proved right, Mijares, and soon to be Donaire etc, I like to create a gleeful little post pointing out how cool I am.

The first Andrade fight was tough and physically taxing...I just don't think Bute was prepared for it...I mean who is prepared for a guy who you hit hit hit and keeps coming?......

Bute is not Glass jawed and I agree the big question on him is stamina...But Stamina is easily fixable...Just more cardio in the gym

You reckon? Jermain Taylor, Cory Spinks, and even Oscar De La Hoya never solved that problem.

I think he's a good fighter, I just don't think he's physically able to hang with the most durable guys. Maybe in this modern age of 12 rounders, he will be less likely to get found out. But can you imagine him going 15 rounds with the likes of Ward, Froch and Abraham if the heat got turned up?

His best chances of winning fights against top fighters will always be early, I think the last three rounds or so could test him.

You never heard of them bringing in conditioning coaches either?....I mean there have been guys in the past who have had similar problems and overcame them...Especially Hwts....

You could be right he may not be able to get that stamina...But not as if he just slumps either...Think about the first Andrade fight that was taxing....

I don't see Froch as being a problem for him in that dept...AA yes due to the fact the guy gets stronger as fights go on....Ward though he beat Kessler handily is not confirmed to be all he is made out yet....He beat Miranda handily but he had some issues....inexperience mostly..

I think this guy is legit...Like you said in your other post if you turn out right then you post with Glee....Your not the only one who has that strategy

[ICB]

I've watched it and I see three rounds for him, although I could give him four. But, are you honestly going to say the judges were biased against Bute? He most certainly didn't win every round, that's one of those myths that comes with the fight not being fresh. It's like the 'Shane battered Margarito for the whole 9 rounds', when Margarito actually probably won the 5th round.

So just because Antonio Margarito, may have won one round. That makes it not a complete wipeout ? unless im reading that wrong ?

IMO Shane Mosley did totally dominate Antonio Margarito. He let his foot off the gas in one round, but again Antonio Margarito's punches were very ineffective.

He did batter Antonio Margarito for pretty much the whole fight, and even in the one debatable round. Shane Mosley still stung Antonio Margarito, and landed the much better punches.

I'll tell you a fight that was seriously overrated, to regards of another fighter suposedly dominating another fighter. And thats James Toney vs Michael Nunn.

Michael Nunn won the early rounds, but James Toney was coming on late. And he had won 3 rounds in a row, aswell as winning the 11th round. Before he even KO'ed Michael Nunn in the 11th round.

Everyone makes out it was some kind of lucky punch, from James Toney when it clearly wasn't. It was James Toney wearing him down late.

But you could say the same about Froch against Taylor, and even the first Andrade Bute fight.

Either Bute is completely glass jawed and got ko'd the first and only time Andrade landed anything, or else Andrade was being effective and getting to Bute prior to the 12th round in order to exhaust him.

It can't work both ways.

Bute is a good fighter but he's got a big question mark over his durability imo. I can't think of any fighter in history who has almost got knocked out like he did in that last round against a limited opponent who hasn't then gone on to have stamina and late round issues in future fights.

He's always going to have that vulnurability, just like Jermain Taylor, Cory Spinks etc.

He will still win fights, maybe some against top opposition but that's not going to go away.

If he gets into a dog fight with a Froch, Abraham or Pascal, the last rounds are going to be very difficult for him.

Yes he's looked great since against mediocre opposition, but he hasn't gone past 5 rounds so his stamina hasn't been on display.

He will crumble and get knocked out AT LEAST 3 times in his career if he fights on for the next 5 years or so.

I said the same about Miranda, after he fought Alan Green that he'd be knocked out at least 6 times by the time his career was over, and that's well on the way to fruition.

Not claiming I have anything like Taeth level boxing understanding, I just like to talk negatively about the fighters I don't like, and then if I'm proved right, Mijares, and soon to be Donaire etc, I like to create a gleeful little post pointing out how cool I am.

Bilbo that last bit of my post, had nothing to do with Lucian Bute vs Librado Andrade 1 mate.

And one last thing Lucian Bute come on late against tough/rough fighter like Sakio Bika. And he stopped a big puncher like Alejandro Berrio in the 11th round brutally.

[Rantcatrat]

We'll see but I think you're using generalizations as reasons here. Bute is a boxer-first while Pavlik was a pure pressure guy. Look at Cotto-Margarito then Margarito-Cotto. Cotto probably landed just as many punches as Mosley but the difference was that Mosley didn't give Margarito the chance to come forward. If Bute chooses to do the smart thing, fight a range fight and outbox Miranda then I just don't see the early knockout coming by way of anything but the one special shot. Pavlik came out and blasted with Miranda, Ward came in and got in his kitchen and bullied him and he only got a decision out of it, Bute won't be fighting as aggressively as either of those guys imo because that's just not his style of fighting.

What's your take on Bute now, Amat?

The guy is as accurate as any with his punches.

[Kev]

We'll see but I think you're using generalizations as reasons here. Bute is a boxer-first while Pavlik was a pure pressure guy. Look at Cotto-Margarito then Margarito-Cotto. Cotto probably landed just as many punches as Mosley but the difference was that Mosley didn't give Margarito the chance to come forward. If Bute chooses to do the smart thing, fight a range fight and outbox Miranda then I just don't see the early knockout coming by way of anything but the one special shot. Pavlik came out and blasted with Miranda, Ward came in and got in his kitchen and bullied him and he only got a decision out of it, Bute won't be fighting as aggressively as either of those guys imo because that's just not his style of fighting.

What's your take on Bute now, Amat?

The guy is as accurate as any with his punches.

I can't speak for Amat, but generally I think it's easier to knock guys out when they are standing in front of you with their hands on their hips.

Miranda is done, his arua has been destroyed and he's an easy nights work for most of the top guys, especially those with boxing skills, which Bute undeniably has.

I must admit I think Carl Froch would have a harder time with Miranda, as he needs to go to war with fighters, and that gives Edison the kind of fight he wants.

But Bute is a very solid fighter no denying that.

I just don't like him because a) he's Canadian, b) Ice and CFH rate him and think he beats Froch, and c) The Ring rates him higher than Andre Ward and Carl Froch even though both have beaten better opposition.

[amat]

Honestly I still feel the same. I think it's a misconception that I am anti-Bute, I've said many many times that he's the second best fighter in the division imo. Like I said, it would take the one special shot. I even predicted a later round stoppage.

The fight really didn't go much differently then I anticipated it was just the chin of Miranda is shit. Previously, with the exception of the second AA fight (and AA has special power, much different then Bute), the only times Miranda had been KO'd was when he was worn down first.

Still though, he doesn't have an inside game which is a bit worrisome especially with Ward in the division. I was hoping to see him tested a bit more with Miranda, he took a couple right hands but nothing extremely clean and now that Pavlik lost it doesn't look like he is going to be tested in the division until the tournament ends or at least the first round ends.

[Kev]

The first Andrade fight was tough and physically taxing...I just don't think Bute was prepared for it...I mean who is prepared for a guy who you hit hit hit and keeps coming?......

Bute is not Glass jawed and I agree the big question on him is stamina...But Stamina is easily fixable...Just more cardio in the gym

You reckon? Jermain Taylor, Cory Spinks, and even Oscar De La Hoya never solved that problem.

I think he's a good fighter, I just don't think he's physically able to hang with the most durable guys. Maybe in this modern age of 12 rounders, he will be less likely to get found out. But can you imagine him going 15 rounds with the likes of Ward, Froch and Abraham if the heat got turned up?

His best chances of winning fights against top fighters will always be early, I think the last three rounds or so could test him.

You never heard of them bringing in conditioning coaches either?....I mean there have been guys in the past who have had similar problems and overcame them...Especially Hwts....

You could be right he may not be able to get that stamina...But not as if he just slumps either...Think about the first Andrade fight that was taxing....

I don't see Froch as being a problem for him in that dept...AA yes due to the fact the guy gets stronger as fights go on....Ward though he beat Kessler handily is not confirmed to be all he is made out yet....He beat Miranda handily but he had some issues....inexperience mostly..

I think this guy is legit...Like you said in your other post if you turn out right then you post with Glee....Your not the only one who has that strategy

Indeed we all do it, but I think we should be honest about it. When Nonito and Bute lose I will spam the boards with 'I told you!!!' type thread, meanwhile every win they have no matter the opposition will be meaningless to me.

Basically, for the true internet warrior, unless a figher retires undefeated he was a bum. Of course if he does retire with his 0 intact, it's just becuase he never fought anybody.

[ICB]

We'll see but I think you're using generalizations as reasons here. Bute is a boxer-first while Pavlik was a pure pressure guy. Look at Cotto-Margarito then Margarito-Cotto. Cotto probably landed just as many punches as Mosley but the difference was that Mosley didn't give Margarito the chance to come forward. If Bute chooses to do the smart thing, fight a range fight and outbox Miranda then I just don't see the early knockout coming by way of anything but the one special shot. Pavlik came out and blasted with Miranda, Ward came in and got in his kitchen and bullied him and he only got a decision out of it, Bute won't be fighting as aggressively as either of those guys imo because that's just not his style of fighting.

What's your take on Bute now, Amat?

The guy is as accurate as any with his punches.

I can't speak for Amat, but generally I think it's easier to knock guys out when they are standing in front of you with their hands on their hips.

Miranda is done, his arua has been destroyed and he's an easy nights work for most of the top guys, especially those with boxing skills, which Bute undeniably has.

I must admit I think Carl Froch would have a harder time with Miranda, as he needs to go to war with fighters, and that gives Edison the kind of fight he wants.

But Bute is a very solid fighter no denying that.

I just don't like him because a) he's Canadian, b) Ice and CFH rate him and think he beats Froch, and c) The Ring rates him higher than Andre Ward and Carl Froch even though both have beaten better opposition.

Bilbo you say you don't like Nonito Donaire, because he only has one good win. And you think his ranking is a joke which i agree on, then why do you think Andre Ward should be number 1 then ?

His only good win is against Mikkel Kessler, who hasn't been fighting good fighters since 2007. Not to mention all the headbutts and ETC, outside of Mikkel Kessler who is there ? Edison Miranda who he went 12 rounds who Lucian Bute destroyed in 3 ?

Yes Mikkel Kessler is better than any fighter on Lucian Bute's resume, but thats only one win. Lucian Bute overall has the better record aswell as being a world champion since 2007.

As for Carl Froch well in my opinion he lost to Andre Dirrell, so not going by the record books and just my opinion, i don't think he's higher than Lucian Bute. But opposition wise he is i agree, but theres more to it than that.

You got too look at skill, title reigns, ETC. And skill wise Carl Froch is probably not even in the top 10 regarding Super Middleweights.

You also have to look at it this way, how would Carl Froch fare against the other top Super Middleweights ? because many people think he's the 2nd worst fighter in this tournament.

But i do agree he has beaten better opposition.

[Eloking]

But Bute is a very solid fighter no denying that.

I just don't like him because a) he's Canadian

Huh?

b) Ice and CFH rate him and think he beats Froch, and c) The Ring rates him higher than Andre Ward and Carl Froch even though both have beaten better opposition.

I think a match between Bute and the winner of the Super Six seem pretty much unavoidable now (and others too while we're at it). Interbox and HBO are interested in that match-up. So either way we'll both be fixed about Bute's value soon.

[amat]

Plus the headbutts

That's not even close to the reason Kessler lost that fight to Ward, not even close. Also, for what it's worth I thought Miranda won the second round of that fight with Bute, not that it's worth much.

[ICB]

Plus the headbutts

That's not even close to the reason Kessler lost that fight to Ward, not even close. Also, for what it's worth I thought Miranda won the second round of that fight with Bute, not that it's worth much.

No but it certainly didn't help matters, im not saying it would of made any difference. Its just down to styles IMO, but the heasbutts certainly didn't help, and he let Andre Ward get away with quite a bit.

Not that i've got anything against Andre Ward. He's a good fighter and he did indeed beat Mikkel Kessler in good fashion.

But he's getting a bit overrated IMO, Mikkel Kessler wasted 2 years fighting nobodies and looked out of sorts IMO. So you have to take that into account, and i remember when Andre Ward was getting floored and hurt vs nobodies. Im still not sold on his chin.

I don't personally know how anyone could rate Andre Ward over Lucian Bute, he's got one good win on his record and his only other notable win is over Edison Miranda, who Lucian Bute stopped in 3 rounds.

Lucian Bute overall has the better record, he's just as skilled. He's been very dominant of late, and he has been a world champion since 2007.

It was a good win for Andre Ward and he very well could be the favorite, i've got nothing against him. But as for now he shouldn't be above Lucian Bute.

[amat]

I agree that Bute has beaten the better competition actually, and I'd venture to say that even Froch has "beaten" better fighters then Ward and Bute. However, I think Kessler is the best fighter any of those 3 have on their record's and I also think Ward is the best and most complete fighter of the 3.