Could Floyd end his career as the best ever?

[JonesJrMayweather]

As Jim Lampley said (I believe during the Trinidad Jones fight) : if the object of the game is to fight the easiest guys possible and make the most money possible Roy Jones is the greatest of all time. Please tell em your going by that criterion otherwise you're delusional.

since you can't read I'll say it again:

"silly as it may sound to the boxing choir..I don't really give a shit..RJJ p4p best to ever wear gloves..."

Since you want to throw out quotes here are a couple that sums up RJJ career best...

"what Roy Jones has done is exposed a real paper champion" - Merchant

"Absolutely" - Lampley

"Ohhh no, the man came out here and fought a terrific fight so don't try to tear it down now because he put on a great performance. We sold it as a Heavyweight championship" - Foreman

"The promoters sold not us" merchant

"Well, we bought it. And they're all paper champions then..." - Foreman..

[amat]

There's no problem with you thinking Jones is the best ever to lace them up, there certainly aren't to many who are better. However, he hasn't beaten enough quality opponents to definitively prove that. That's my only point and that's why I took exception to Ruiz being a win that makes him the ATG. It was a great win but it was over an average fighter.

[Kev]

There's no problem with you thinking Floyd is the best ever to lace them up, there certainly aren't to many who are better. However, he hasn't beaten enough quality opponents to definitively prove that. That's my only point and that's why I took exception to Ruiz being a win that makes him the ATG. It was a great win but it was over an average fighter.

You mean Roy of course. You're being very vague and confusing today Amat

[amat]

There's no problem with you thinking Floyd is the best ever to lace them up, there certainly aren't to many who are better. However, he hasn't beaten enough quality opponents to definitively prove that. That's my only point and that's why I took exception to Ruiz being a win that makes him the ATG. It was a great win but it was over an average fighter.

You mean Roy of course. You're being very vague and confusing today Amat

No I'm talking about Dakota Fanning

Yes I'm a bit mixed up this Friday Night.

[Taeth]

I forgot who said it, but someone here said that Roberto Duran has the greatest accomplishments of a fighter in the last 30 years or so. And I have to agree. For Floyd to be best ever, just ask yourself if he's accomplished more than Roberto Duran (a modern all time great) even if he beats Mosley and Mayweather.

My answer would be no, and Duran is a top 5 fighter of all time by many boxing publications and fans.

I may not even see someone being better than DUran in terms of skills, accomplishments and longevity in my lifetime.

I'm not sure I honestly think Manny Pacquaio has done more than Duran now.

Duran was a great for sure but he lost the most significant fights of his career, the second fight with Leonard, was KO'd by Hearns, lost to Hagler. Manny has moved up higher in comparison from where he started and dominated the top guys.

I do think nostalgia creeps in a little bit with Leonard, Duran, Hearns and Hagler.

I actually agree with Taeth to an extent. They are rated so highly because their fights against each other were often wars and wildly entertaining.

Floyd beats his opponents with comparative ease and ironically gets downgraded because of it.

For the record I think Floyd beats Duran. Too smart to engage and let him fight his fight, he'd box him and keep away. If Kirklaind Laing could do it Floyd undoubtedly could.

I didn't want to turn this into a Duran thread. But Duran is arguably the greatest 135 pounder. A natural lightweight that beat a prime Leonard convincingly in their 1st fight. Floyd and Manny ain't beating prime Leonard at 147. And for sure they ain't going to beat Tommy Hearns at 147 or 154. Could they go 15 against Hagler? Remember Duran was winning that fight after 12 and would have been MW champ if it was by today's rules. He also beat a top 3 154 pounder in Davey Moore for his title. Also beat Iran Barkley for a piece of the MW title at 38.

Remember for those losses you brought up, he lost them out of his prime weight. And he started his career as a bantamweight, 118 pounds.

He didn't need to fight guys at a catchweight either or demanded all kinds of advantages in his favor like Leonard or Manny.

I used Duran because he's a modern great instead of SRR who's not considered to be a modern fighter. Ain't no modern guy has the resume or accomplishments of Duran today.

I think Mayweather could go 15 rounds with Hagler, I don't see that being too much to ask of Mayweather.

I also honestly see Mayweather or Pacquiao beating Leonard on the right night. THere were times against a poorly prepared Benitez that gave Leonard absolute fits, and Mayweather is better than Benitez in virtually ever category except power. Depending on how Mayweather could deal with Leonard's speed and range I think Mayweather could do very well against Leonard.

If Manny could hold up to the power of Leonard which I am almost certain he can(I believe Cotto is a bigger puncher than Ray who didn't have a huge punch) then I think Manny would have likely beaten Leonard maybe more often than Mayweather. He throws more than Leonard, he likely has/had better stamina, he is just as fast and his combinations work better against range fighters because Leonard threw more hook combinations while Manny's are straight punches. Also Leonard wasn't the kind of counter puncher guys like Mayweather or RJJ were, he was more the type of guy who would fight on the outside and outspeed you, I think Manny's offense would overwhelm a guy like that a little bit. Too many punches for too many angles.

As for Hearns I think if Mayweather fought how he normally does he would be screwed, but both Benitez and Leonard were able to handle Hearns' power and thats because I believe they were fast enough to see his punches coming, and that a lot of his power came from throwing that right hand behind the jab in such a way that slower opponents didn't see it until it landed. Mayweather is also a great inside fighter with much better cardio than Hearns. If he could get inside on Hearns then once again he would do pretty good, and Benitez was able to do alright against Hearns, and he is sort of a poor man's Mayweather, a lot because he hardly ever trained for big fights.

I think for Manny against the 1980's greats a matter of whether he can deal with the punches, I don't think any of them were as good defensively as they would need to be in order to avoid what Manny threw, and I am not sure if they could go to war with Manny and come out the victor, he loves to fight more than anyone and he has all the talent in the world, I think there is a reason why he is ranked higher than any of them except Duran p4p, and I think DUran is the only one with the tenacity to actually beat Manny more often than not assuming none of them could truly hurt him.

[Taeth]

As Jim Lampley said (I believe during the Trinidad Jones fight) : if the object of the game is to fight the easiest guys possible and make the most money possible Roy Jones is the greatest of all time. Please tell em your going by that criterion otherwise you're delusional.

since you can't read I'll say it again:

"silly as it may sound to the boxing choir..I don't really give a shit..RJJ p4p best to ever wear gloves..."

Since you want to throw out quotes here are a couple that sums up RJJ career best...

"what Roy Jones has done is exposed a real paper champion" - Merchant

"Absolutely" - Lampley

"Ohhh no, the man came out here and fought a terrific fight so don't try to tear it down now because he put on a great performance. We sold it as a Heavyweight championship" - Foreman

"The promoters sold not us" merchant

"Well, we bought it. And they're all paper champions then..." - Foreman..

Watch the first Jones-Griffin fight and you will see that a guy like Mayweather would pick Roy apart because he is throws punches that simply wouldn't land on Floyd because they are too wide and thrown from too far away.

I will completely agree though that Roy was capable of dominating c level competition better than anyone else, but not B+ or higher levels of competition.

[JonesJrMayweather]

[quote=amat;870322]There's no problem with you thinking Jones is the best ever to lace them up, there certainly aren't to many who are better. However, he hasn't beaten enough quality opponents to definitively prove that. That's my only point and that's why I took exception to Ruiz being a win that makes him the ATG. It was a great win but it was over an average fighter.[/quote]


so were basillo, lamotta, graziano and gavilian...and he was average enough to win the heavy belt or a piece of it. Something many can't make a claim to have achieved which makes him above average...

[amat]

Are you that stupid? Are you really comparing those guys and saying they are on the level of John Ruiz? Did I just read that correctly? Those are HALL OF FAMERS.

[JonesJrMayweather]

As Jim Lampley said (I believe during the Trinidad Jones fight) : if the object of the game is to fight the easiest guys possible and make the most money possible Roy Jones is the greatest of all time. Please tell em your going by that criterion otherwise you're delusional.

since you can't read I'll say it again:

"silly as it may sound to the boxing choir..I don't really give a shit..RJJ p4p best to ever wear gloves..."

Since you want to throw out quotes here are a couple that sums up RJJ career best...

"what Roy Jones has done is exposed a real paper champion" - Merchant

"Absolutely" - Lampley

"Ohhh no, the man came out here and fought a terrific fight so don't try to tear it down now because he put on a great performance. We sold it as a Heavyweight championship" - Foreman

"The promoters sold not us" merchant

"Well, we bought it. And they're all paper champions then..." - Foreman..

Watch the first Jones-Griffin fight and you will see that a guy like Mayweather would pick Roy apart because he is throws punches that simply wouldn't land on Floyd because they are too wide and thrown from too far away.

I will completely agree though that Roy was capable of dominating c level competition better than anyone else, but not B+ or higher levels of competition.

Here we go again...same ole bullshit. Go watch this fight and go watch that fight, but let's forget about the fights were guys who weren't even an eight of Roy's speed landed flush on floyd. Let's forget about how prime floyd arguably lost to castillo a fighter not fit to carry Jones's jock strap..Let's forget chop chop landed flush and wobbled floyd. Let's forget judah unofficially dropped him. Let's forget he couldn't stop a man two weight classes smaller than him. Let's forget all of the fights that point to why Jones would knock floyd silly...Let's not mention the fact that jones spent majority of his career fighting guys naturally bigger than him and did it in dominating fashion. Let's forget that its RJJ that's is often pitted in hypothetical match ups against ALL TIME GREAT TRUE HEAVY'S when he started at 154. This self admission that anyone below heavy stands a punchers chance against roy, and @ MW-LHW Jones beats everyone in history 9 out of 10....

[JonesJrMayweather]

Are you that stupid? Are you really comparing those guys and saying they are on the level of John Ruiz? Did I just read that correctly? Those are HALL OF FAMERS.

The question is are you? Just because they're in the HOF isn't the end all. Skillfully they were nothing compared to SRR. Qawi is in the HOF too but is he on the same level as Floyd or Jones?

[amat]

What are you talking about?

So you think all those guys are of comparable skill level to John Ruiz? Because whether you realize it or not that's why you said. If so then you have no business talking about those guys.

[generalbulldog]

This thread is turning into an who is the greatest p4p thread. Someone said Roy, I go with Duran for the modern era.

And someone in here thinks Floyd could fare well with Leonard, Hearns, Duran, and go 15 with Hagler.

Hey we all have our opinions, so I'll leave it at that.

Aint no right or wrong answer.

[Taeth]

since you can't read I'll say it again:

"silly as it may sound to the boxing choir..I don't really give a shit..RJJ p4p best to ever wear gloves..."

Since you want to throw out quotes here are a couple that sums up RJJ career best...

"what Roy Jones has done is exposed a real paper champion" - Merchant

"Absolutely" - Lampley

"Ohhh no, the man came out here and fought a terrific fight so don't try to tear it down now because he put on a great performance. We sold it as a Heavyweight championship" - Foreman

"The promoters sold not us" merchant

"Well, we bought it. And they're all paper champions then..." - Foreman..

Watch the first Jones-Griffin fight and you will see that a guy like Mayweather would pick Roy apart because he is throws punches that simply wouldn't land on Floyd because they are too wide and thrown from too far away.

I will completely agree though that Roy was capable of dominating c level competition better than anyone else, but not B+ or higher levels of competition.

Here we go again...same ole bullshit. Go watch this fight and go watch that fight, but let's forget about the fights were guys who weren't even an eight of Roy's speed landed flush on floyd. Let's forget about how prime floyd arguably lost to castillo a fighter not fit to carry Jones's jock strap..Let's forget chop chop landed flush and wobbled floyd. Let's forget judah unofficially dropped him. Let's forget he couldn't stop a man two weight classes smaller than him. Let's forget all of the fights that point to why Jones would knock floyd silly...Let's not mention the fact that jones spent majority of his career fighting guys naturally bigger than him and did it in dominating fashion. Let's forget that its RJJ that's is often pitted in hypothetical match ups against ALL TIME GREAT TRUE HEAVY'S when he started at 154. This self admission that anyone below heavy stands a punchers chance against roy, and @ MW-LHW Jones beats everyone in history 9 out of 10....

I am going to highlight the whole arguement because its terrible, yes Roy was a great fighter, but it's largely contested he never really ever weighed in at 154, a lot of people believe on the smaller stage he was able to fake 160 for 154.
Also the guys who landed flush punches on FLoyd didn't do it with speed, but with proper diligence(do you need me to explain the word). The whole point is that anyone of any speed can land on anyone if they fight correctly, but ROy's flamboyant style has no place against the elites of the sport. Anyone that can come close to matching his speed would likely beat him because of he depended on being so much faster than guys that if he wasn't like against Griffin he had a lot of troubles because their punches would come straighter and land before his.

I think Roy was the greatest fighter against anyone who wasn't in his class athletically, but that was his one true advantage, all his genius and abilities were based on that.

[match]

A world champion who defends his title against a part time cop waives his right to be all time greatest.

[match]

To answer the original question greatness is all relative. I get sick of people who discount modern day fighters due to them fighting less, when in fact if Ray Robinson were in his prime today he also would only be fighting at most twice a year, not twice in 9 days. Any fighter with a ridiculous amount of fights, even James Toney of today, the vast majority of those opponents are not even B level fighters. Ray Robinson should be the greatest of all time but not just based on his record, but based on the number of quality world class fighters he beat.