Question about Counterpunching and range

[God.in.my.corner]

I am a novice boxer with just a few fights. I've always considered my 'style' as a straight-ahead type, that throws alot of straight punches. I have good handspeed and I think I can take a shot well. When I fight or spar, I always seem to be the one initiating the action- whether I land, miss or get hit. I think I have adopted this approach since I feel my conditioning is pretty good. I usually step in with a series of jabs and then the action starts.

I have been working with a new guy at the gym. When we spar, he tells me to let him start the action, and I would counter. I feel this style is easier to land shots since my feet are set, balance is good, and after I block or avoid a shot, the guard is never high and tight like it is when I would try to start the action by stepping in. I don't have to worry about range as much, since they are coming to me. I just never considered myself a 'counterpunching type' since I am not real slick defensively or lightning-quick.

My question is in general is it easier to land punches if your opponent is coming towards you, as opposed to you stepping into his range? And is it easier to land a shot after a shot has been thrown by your opponent (common sense seems Yes, but I would like another take on this thought)?

[HerbM]

I could easily have written your post to describe myself -- and probably did write something similar to it a couple of times in the last few months.

One trivial difference is that my coach forced me to stop going forward, to wait for my opponents to close and then hit them (a lot).

He (at least partially) predicates this on my having longer arms than most anyone I work with -- generally he is telling the opponent they must work inside to negate my advantage of reach.

Even then, he is saying that you must almost always work left or right, or off timing punches, to get inside.

Now, I am a new boxer (5+ months now), so it doesn't MEAN anything, but the guys who are approximately at my level
just don't get to hit me very often -- sometimes not at all -- when I do this.

Sometimes I do initiate but I do it by getting back just out of MY range, then stepping up where I can reach but they still cannot, through a few punches and then retreating (usually at an angle so I can repeat the whole process.)

Remember, this is only against other beginners so I am not claiming any great skill, but the method almost seems like cheating.

I hit. I don't get hit (much).

This is effective enough that lately when we are doing shadow sparring, I can pretty well control most of my opponents WITHOUT hitting even though they are really trying to tag me (a bit harder than they really should, but like you I don't really mind taking a punch).

Even then, I get hit by very few even though they are walking through my jabs and when that wouldn't be possible were I really hitting.

For me now, it's all about staying out of range UNTIL I want to hit, getting in and getting out quicly as soon as I get my hits, or hitting him as he is coming into my range, moving left and right, holding the center of the ring even if backing up, good defense especially parrying with my right hand while jabbing a lot until my opponent moves his hands then using other punches and movement to work in close (if I wish.)

I will enjoy reading what the experts write on this subject....

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HerbM

[God.in.my.corner]

He's another thing I forgot to add. A couple of friends that I spar with are much bigger than me. They are also taller with a reach advantage. So when we spar, I am always trying to get inside their reach- or come forward.

When I spar other guys more near my weight, I either have an equal reach or an advantage. (I'm 5'10" with a 26" arm length). I feel when this is the case, it's much easier to wait for my opponents to come forward, tag them and then move.

Is it a bad habit of always sparring with bigger guys?

[HerbM]

He's another thing I forgot to add. A couple of friends that I spar with are much bigger than me. They are also taller with a reach advantage. So when we spar, I am always trying to get inside their reach- or come forward.

When I spar other guys more near my weight, I either have an equal reach or an advantage. (I'm 5'10" with a 26" arm length). I feel when this is the case, it's much easier to wait for my opponents to come forward, tag them and then move.

Is it a bad habit of always sparring with bigger guys?

If you take out the word 'always' then no, it's not. But with that in there, you do need to spar with a variety IF PRACTICAL.

And yes, your method of changing your strategy to fit the differing physical disparity is what my coach teaches.

Notice though you can be moving BEFORE counter-punching with shorter reach opponents, and that moving is the key to getting inside.

Even as a kid in streetfights, I was ALWAYS able to move inside on (much) larger opponents, but this new (to me) idea of counter-punching is almost an unfair advantages.

Almost.

BTW, I am also 5'10" and have a long reach. Don't know the arm length, but my reach is over 75" (6'3") or a 35" shirt sleeve.


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HerbM

[Fran@myboxingcoach]

Hey Lads

Thought I might add a couple of things into the mix on this very interesting thread that has lots of common sense points made already.

1. A reach advantage is only an advantage when the person with the reach advantage is fundamentally a more skilled boxer. If the opponent is a better boxer (and this is something that becomes apparent to you fairly early in a contest), be that opponent taller or shorter than yourself, then constant pressure, closing the distance and overwhelming the opponent with weight of punches is always the most likely source of success.
2. However, a shorter boxer can nullify a taller opponent's reach with effective feinting and counterpunching.
3. A feint to draw the jab, followed by a block or parry and an immediate jab in response is superbly effective at cancelling out an opponent's reach (a nice step in with the jab also helps!) The jab has to go and land as soon as the opponent's glove is in your hand, otherwise the opening has gone.
4. Slips are a good option, particularly against an advancing opponent. As with the block and jab though, the slip and corresponding punch must come as a package; don't slip and then wait to see what opening comes, slip and fire a shot...any shot!
5. A taller opponent will naturally want to stand off a short opponent, seeking to work at long range. These matches can often be a bit cat and mouse, but shorter boxers can be effective at long range...by being a better boxer. Always focus on the skills!

Good thread lads

Take it easy

Fran

[Andre]

Good read great thread.
The only other thing that comes to my mind is disruption of their moment.

With longer reaches (if the timing isnt going your way) I think you have to become very aware of maintaining your desired distance and have control of their arm while you make them react.

If you break it down into ranges then you can disrupt their movement as they come, before they are in full contact range and then, because you know their reaction will be the reverse to where you lightly pressured their arm you can be moving into your desired angle already, hitting into the space they just left for you.

This gets easier to time the longer the fight goes on because things are getting less snappy and larger men if they tire and lean or over commit to the jab; like using it like an extended aerial;then you can time it easier.

Recognizing a wide stance and if their front leg moves directly under their jab can be a bonus, If you so much as touch that foot before it hits the ground with your toe ; their jab is dead in the water you just have to guide the arm where you want it as they react.



.

[HerbM]

Good read great thread.
The only other thing that comes to my mind is disruption of their moment.

With longer reaches (if the timing isnt going your way) I think you have to become very aware of maintaining your desired distance and have control of their arm while you make them react.

If you break it down into ranges then you can disrupt their movement as they come, before they are in full contact range and then, because you know their reaction will be the reverse to where you lightly pressured their arm you can be moving into your desired angle already, hitting into the space they just left for you.

This gets easier to time the longer the fight goes on because things are getting less snappy and larger men if they tire and lean or over commit to the jab; like using it like an extended aerial;then you can time it easier.

Recognizing a wide stance and if their front leg moves directly under their jab can be a bonus, If you so much as touch that foot before it hits the ground with your toe ; their jab is dead in the water you just have to guide the arm where you want it as they react.



.

I like these ideas, Andre. You left a lot unwritten, just hinting at the ideas and it got me to thinking about this.


Of course, thinking about mechanics always takes me back to my Systema practice, especially that idea of 'touching' the foot before it settles. This is a taught and practiced technique in Systema.

When your attacker moves his foot you push it aside (usually, but other directions can work sometimes) -- it's nothing like a trip, but rather just forcing him to set his foot down a little (usually only a few inches) further out, or forward, or whatever than he really intended.

This plays hell on his balance, stance, and posture (sometimes it can lead to his falling down but that is not the primary goal).

If you make it TOO obvious, it might be illegal in boxing, or get you a warning, but if it is subtle -- "Hey he moved his foot, so did I, not my fault that my foot got there first..." it can really disrupt a fighter.

We're ready for it so our movement stays on balance while he is desperately trying to first correct his balance and posture, before he can more again smoothly.

On the first part my AMOK! (knife defense) training partner and I were working some tactical ideas today that are related, but I don't know if that would be of interest here -- disrupting his attacks rather than actually attacking him directly, or attacking his arm while my body is still out of his range.

(This stuff is of course much more obvious when dueling with knives since cuts are so easy to get on his striking arm or hand, but it does have some overlap with boxing or other striking.)

--
HerbM

[Andre]

Good read great thread.
The only other thing that comes to my mind is disruption of their moment.

With longer reaches (if the timing isnt going your way) I think you have to become very aware of maintaining your desired distance and have control of their arm while you make them react.

If you break it down into ranges then you can disrupt their movement as they come, before they are in full contact range and then, because you know their reaction will be the reverse to where you lightly pressured their arm you can be moving into your desired angle already, hitting into the space they just left for you.

This gets easier to time the longer the fight goes on because things are getting less snappy and larger men if they tire and lean or over commit to the jab; like using it like an extended aerial;then you can time it easier.

Recognizing a wide stance and if their front leg moves directly under their jab can be a bonus, If you so much as touch that foot before it hits the ground with your toe ; their jab is dead in the water you just have to guide the arm where you want it as they react.



.

I like these ideas, Andre. You left a lot unwritten, just hinting at the ideas and it got me to thinking about this.


Of course, thinking about mechanics always takes me back to my Systema practice, especially that idea of 'touching' the foot before it settles. This is a taught and practiced technique in Systema.

When your attacker moves his foot you push it aside (usually, but other directions can work sometimes) -- it's nothing like a trip, but rather just forcing him to set his foot down a little (usually only a few inches) further out, or forward, or whatever than he really intended.

This plays hell on his balance, stance, and posture (sometimes it can lead to his falling down but that is not the primary goal).

If you make it TOO obvious, it might be illegal in boxing, or get you a warning, but if it is subtle -- "Hey he moved his foot, so did I, not my fault that my foot got there first..." it can really disrupt a fighter.

We're ready for it so our movement stays on balance while he is desperately trying to first correct his balance and posture, before he can more again smoothly.

On the first part my AMOK! (knife defense) training partner and I were working some tactical ideas today that are related, but I don't know if that would be of interest here -- disrupting his attacks rather than actually attacking him directly, or attacking his arm while my body is still out of his range.

(This stuff is of course much more obvious when dueling with knives since cuts are so easy to get on his striking arm or hand, but it does have some overlap with boxing or other striking.)

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HerbM

Cool .
Theres a place for it.
Just look at fencing then look at utilizing the jab as the front attack and guard and we have a grounding instantly.

I've always thought that some parts of other arts would find a place in boxing. Not everything and not all of the time but just in some instances, there are proven things that work, so I think why not use them if you're built that way.

Your right too you have set these things up from the start and they have to be the type who'll play into it too.You wouldn't just go for it out of the blue.
And theres alot left unwritten.

Imagine someone over committed :they land their front foot in between your legs, so you open up for them a touch next time to catch them; but you are in control of their lead elbow point with your rear arm as you go square slightly and they are landing: (this can occur on the move backwards if you take your lead leg back as they come, then your rear leg is now your front leg and your rear arm is now your front arm and your leg is on the outside of their landing foot :-)
Adjust for the new distance,release and land a hook over the top of their arm and drag their foot back towards you at the same time and watch what happens. ( finish them).