US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts

[ono]

I'm failing to see how anybody can't see that the kids in question were just being complete dicks. I mean Bilbo has explained it well, Jaz has, amat has, CFH has and i thought i had.

Being a dick is not illegal, nor is wearing a flag (i.e see the post where I did explain it more detailed). The point is not there, it was perhaps provocative but it was far from something totally disrespectful or offensive such as burning a mexican flag or stomping a Mexican icon. You cannot kick kids out of school for their opinion when these opinions are displayed peacefully.

I didn't say it was illegal. Technically wearing a flag breaks the US Flag Code though (apparently). They became dicks the minute they refused to comply with what the principle asked them. Obviously they weren't content with just making their point. They wanted to remind the Mexicans just who's country they're in. Nice. Brilliant to have a reminder that you don't fit in every now and then. Keeps you on your toes i suppose. The daft thing is, if they were smart enough, they'd have actually sported a t-shirt featuring the French flag. Having said that, it is America. They don't want to offend their own people.

[ono]

I'm failing to see how anybody can't see that the kids in question were just being complete dicks. I mean Bilbo has explained it well, Jaz has, amat has, CFH has and i thought i had.

Being a dick is not illegal, nor is wearing a flag (i.e see the post where I did explain it more detailed). The point is not there, it was perhaps provocative but it was far from something totally disrespectful or offensive such as burning a mexican flag or stomping a Mexican icon. You cannot kick kids out of school for their opinion when these opinions are displayed peacefully.

Of course you can, if the opinion is offensive and deemed as provocative, and you're continously airing said opinion, or displaying it on clothing.

[ono]

I'm failing to see how anybody can't see that the kids in question were just being complete dicks. I mean Bilbo has explained it well, Jaz has, amat has, CFH has and i thought i had.

Being a dick is not illegal, nor is wearing a flag (i.e see the post where I did explain it more detailed). The point is not there, it was perhaps provocative but it was far from something totally disrespectful or offensive such as burning a mexican flag or stomping a Mexican icon. You cannot kick kids out of school for their opinion when these opinions are displayed peacefully.

Yes, there is nothing to suggest that the kids were being violent in expressing themselves. If they had been wearing the flag and walking about hitting the Mexicans then I would fully empathise with the Mexicans, but just based on wearing a few silly colours I struggle to see the big deal. I find it such a bizarre thing to get upset about. I couldn't imagine a situation from my school days where someone would get so worked up by a flag, but we did have to wear uniforms up until 6th form which is possibly the best option if this is how sensitive people are going to get. And they should all have the same haircuts too just like kids do here. If you are going to get so worked up by people expressing themselves (no matter how ignorantly) then how about going the other way and showing what its like for everyone to have no freedom. Uniform clothes and haircuts is the way to deal with this. Well done, KS on solving the issue for me! Hooray!

I don't think many are getting upset by it. Maybe in Mexican communities they are. But it seems to be the American public who are upset by the fact the kids we're asked to remove the clothing, and when they refused, they were asked to go home for the day.

Out of interest Miles, where do you draw the line? What item of clothing isn't accpetable?

[Gandalf]

I'm failing to see how anybody can't see that the kids in question were just being complete dicks. I mean Bilbo has explained it well, Jaz has, amat has, CFH has and i thought i had.

Being a dick is not illegal, nor is wearing a flag (i.e see the post where I did explain it more detailed). The point is not there, it was perhaps provocative but it was far from something totally disrespectful or offensive such as burning a mexican flag or stomping a Mexican icon. You cannot kick kids out of school for their opinion when these opinions are displayed peacefully.

Yes, there is nothing to suggest that the kids were being violent in expressing themselves. If they had been wearing the flag and walking about hitting the Mexicans then I would fully empathise with the Mexicans, but just based on wearing a few silly colours I struggle to see the big deal. I find it such a bizarre thing to get upset about. I couldn't imagine a situation from my school days where someone would get so worked up by a flag, but we did have to wear uniforms up until 6th form which is possibly the best option if this is how sensitive people are going to get. And they should all have the same haircuts too just like kids do here. If you are going to get so worked up by people expressing themselves (no matter how ignorantly) then how about going the other way and showing what its like for everyone to have no freedom. Uniform clothes and haircuts is the way to deal with this. Well done, KS on solving the issue for me! Hooray!

I don't think many are getting upset by it. Maybe in Mexican communities they are. But it seems to be the American public who are upset by the fact the kids we're asked to remove the clothing, and when they refused, they were asked to go home for the day.

Out of interest Miles, where do you draw the line? What item of clothing isn't accpetable?

I think the best solution in a situation like this in a school setting is a uniform like KS suggested. I really think that is the best alternative. As it stands I don't believe that wearing a flag shirt should really be considered offensive. If the shirt had another students name on it with something provocative on it like "Debbie takes it up the pooper" then I don't think that is acceptable because Debbie is a student in the class and that is bullying and in a direct and very demeaning way. But I'm the type of person that would see no issue with someone going to Buckingham palace wearing a t-shirt with a picture of the Queen getting her head cut off by a guillotine. That person would be an adult and I believe that they should be able to express themselves freely no matter how juvenile it is. Mind you, I really wouldn't go to the effort of doing that, but have no issues with anyone that did. I would probably draw the line at having naked people on a tshirt, that's probably not a healthy thing for young kids to see. And maybe a shirt emblazoned with foul language. But where do you draw the line? Maybe some kids are against modern capitalism and big business? Are we then going to ban all logos? Where do you draw the line. I find corporate branding far more offensive than a silly flag. Either let them wear what they want at all times and rise above any rivalry or else tie them down in uniforms. Now I'm thinking that for silly school kids the later option is probably preferable.

[Kev]

I'm failing to see how anybody can't see that the kids in question were just being complete dicks. I mean Bilbo has explained it well, Jaz has, amat has, CFH has and i thought i had.

Being a dick is not illegal, nor is wearing a flag (i.e see the post where I did explain it more detailed). The point is not there, it was perhaps provocative but it was far from something totally disrespectful or offensive such as burning a mexican flag or stomping a Mexican icon. You cannot kick kids out of school for their opinion when these opinions are displayed peacefully.

Yes, there is nothing to suggest that the kids were being violent in expressing themselves. If they had been wearing the flag and walking about hitting the Mexicans then I would fully empathise with the Mexicans, but just based on wearing a few silly colours I struggle to see the big deal. I find it such a bizarre thing to get upset about. I couldn't imagine a situation from my school days where someone would get so worked up by a flag, but we did have to wear uniforms up until 6th form which is possibly the best option if this is how sensitive people are going to get. And they should all have the same haircuts too just like kids do here. If you are going to get so worked up by people expressing themselves (no matter how ignorantly) then how about going the other way and showing what its like for everyone to have no freedom. Uniform clothes and haircuts is the way to deal with this. Well done, KS on solving the issue for me! Hooray!

I don't think many are getting upset by it. Maybe in Mexican communities they are. But it seems to be the American public who are upset by the fact the kids we're asked to remove the clothing, and when they refused, they were asked to go home for the day.

Out of interest Miles, where do you draw the line? What item of clothing isn't accpetable?

I think the best solution in a situation like this in a school setting is a uniform like KS suggested. I really think that is the best alternative. As it stands I don't believe that wearing a flag shirt should really be considered offensive. If the shirt had another students name on it with something provocative on it like "Debbie takes it up the pooper" then I don't think that is acceptable because Debbie is a student in the class and that is bullying and in a direct and very demeaning way. But I'm the type of person that would see no issue with someone going to Buckingham palace wearing a t-shirt with a picture of the Queen getting her head cut off by a guillotine. That person would be an adult and I believe that they should be able to express themselves freely no matter how juvenile it is. Mind you, I really wouldn't go to the effort of doing that, but have no issues with anyone that did. I would probably draw the line at having naked people on a tshirt, that's probably not a healthy thing for young kids to see. And maybe a shirt emblazoned with foul language. But where do you draw the line? Maybe some kids are against modern capitalism and big business? Are we then going to ban all logos? Where do you draw the line. I find corporate branding far more offensive than a silly flag. Either let them wear what they want at all times and rise above any rivalry or else tie them down in uniforms. Now I'm thinking that for silly school kids the later option is probably preferable.

So of course you would have no problem letting a bunch of Arabs through the Heathrow Terminals wearing tshirts that said 'Down with the UK!', or 'Death to the infidels!'?

I must say it's interesting the lengths to which you will go to preserve tshirt wearing rights, the fundamental right to offend through clothing is clearly very important to you, a basic human right almost :-)

[amat]

The highest court in the land says you can make political statements at school as long as it doesn't interfere with other students learning. If there were Mexican kids out there that felt targeted by these kid's shirts (because even those arguing against the principal admit that these douches were targeting kids) then the principal was well within his rights.

You guys take civil liberties and run with it, how the hell would you feel if your son went to this school and the principal was more worried about not stepping on a couple bigot's toes then he was making sure everyone is getting out of school what they actually went there for? Lyle I expected to have the type of reply he did but by typing Stinko De Mayo he pretty much made my point for me. If some Mexican called July 4th something like that he would be up in arms talking about how white people are modern day black slaves.

[Kev]

The highest court in the land says you can make political statements at school as long as it doesn't interfere with other students learning. If there were Mexican kids out there that felt targeted by these kid's shirts (because even those arguing against the principal admit that these douches were targeting kids) then the principal was well within his rights.

You guys take civil liberties and run with it, how the hell would you feel if your son went to this school and the principal was more worried about not stepping on a couple bigot's toes then he was making sure everyone is getting out of school what they actually went there for? Lyle I expected to have the type of reply he did but by typing Stinko De Mayo he pretty much made my point for me. If some Mexican called July 4th something like that he would be up in arms talking about how white people are modern day black slaves.

I never thought it would happen but Amat, Ono and Jazmerkin are those on this board whose opinions I respect the most these days.

[amat]

Lol Bilbo I think it's just because we are advocates of common sense. When the principal made his decision it was one of common sense, politics just weren't involved most likely.

Common sense always falls in the center and on this issue, you have people stuck on the right or left wings both arguing for the same point. The leftists would rather see the world crash and burn before they would stand to watch someone's perceived civil liberties violated in any shape or fashion. People own the right can't believe what the world is coming to when someone wears an American flag in America and has to take it off.

The more politics creep in, the more context is lost and the more common sense takes a backseat.

[Oggie]

It would have been interesting to have seen exactly what the situation was when the principal decided to take the measures he did.

Here is a thought that I'm a bit split on;
If the principal took the measures without a reason other than the fact that those kids were wearing the shirts, is he not encouraging the division between the two sets of pupils?
I'm just trying to imagine the scenario on the next school day as the kids arrive. If there was no trouble in sight, should he have just let it be instead of bringing it into the spotlight and almost providing a reason for increased animosity?
Would be interesting to hear thoughts on this...

Of course, just to be clear, if trouble was brewing and it was affecting the students, then (much like all protests) the principal was 100% right to take action in the interest of student/school safety in my opinion.

[Kev]

It would have been interesting to have seen exactly what the situation was when the principal decided to take the measures he did.

Here is a thought that I'm a bit split on;
If the principal took the measures without a reason other than the fact that those kids were wearing the shirts, is he not encouraging the division between the two sets of pupils?
I'm just trying to imagine the scenario on the next school day as the kids arrive. If there was no trouble in sight, should he have just let it be instead of bringing it into the spotlight and almost providing a reason for increased animosity?
Would be interesting to hear thoughts on this...

Of course, just to be clear, if trouble was brewing and it was affecting the students, then (much like all protests) the principal was 100% right to take action in the interest of student/school safety in my opinion.

Thing is I guess the principle knows his students. He probably knows that kids, knows they are a bit twatish and knew exactly what they were up to .

I watched their interviews after and they looked like dicks to me, one kid innocently saying 'he couldn't take his shirt off because it would disrespecting the American flag', they were obviously just trying to make some kind of political statement.

And their parents too, who are now sueing. They will no doubt try to rally support by reminding America of all the brave troops who have died defending the right of all Americans to proudly wear their flags.

[Oggie]

It would have been interesting to have seen exactly what the situation was when the principal decided to take the measures he did.

Here is a thought that I'm a bit split on;
If the principal took the measures without a reason other than the fact that those kids were wearing the shirts, is he not encouraging the division between the two sets of pupils?
I'm just trying to imagine the scenario on the next school day as the kids arrive. If there was no trouble in sight, should he have just let it be instead of bringing it into the spotlight and almost providing a reason for increased animosity?
Would be interesting to hear thoughts on this...

Of course, just to be clear, if trouble was brewing and it was affecting the students, then (much like all protests) the principal was 100% right to take action in the interest of student/school safety in my opinion.

Thing is I guess the principle knows his students. He probably knows that kids, knows they are a bit twatish and knew exactly what they were up to .

I watched their interviews after and they looked like dicks to me, one kid innocently saying 'he couldn't take his shirt off because it would disrespecting the American flag', they were obviously just trying to make some kind of political statement.

And their parents too, who are now sueing. They will no doubt try to rally support by reminding America of all the brave troops who have died defending the right of all Americans to proudly wear their flags.

I haven't seen the interview with the kids, but it does appear they were looking for trouble by being overly patriotic on the day. Anyway, I guess it can be debated over and over, but it is quite hard to assess the situation without being there first hand.
As for the parents suing, they are just needlessly making a big deal about something unnecessary and like the point I made earlier, they are just encouraging the animosity between the groups of students in question.

[Gray Lion]

Lets see....you are in the United States of America, you are attending a school funded, regulated, and administered by United States tax payers. Last time I looked there are no recognized Mexican holidays in either the school system or government of the United States. So a vice-principal, who is hispanic...tells you that it is offensive to wear an emblem identified as the flag of the United States of America in your school, because it might 'offend' someone celebrating a foreign holiday. I suggest that Principal and any hispanic student who felt offended, be taken on that holiday to a cemetary to witness the burial of a soldier returning home in a coffin drapped with that same flag, and being laid to rest. Tell the family and others at the burial site why you feel offended, and ask them if they feel the celebration of your foreign holiday is more important.

[Kev]

Lets see....you are in the United States of America, you are attending a school funded, regulated, and administered by United States tax payers. Last time I looked there are no recognized Mexican holidays in either the school system or government of the United States. So a vice-principal, who is hispanic...tells you that it is offensive to wear an emblem identified as the flag of the United States of America in your school, because it might 'offend' someone celebrating a foreign holiday. I suggest that Principal and any hispanic student who felt offended, be taken on that holiday to a cemetary to witness the burial of a soldier returning home in a coffin drapped with that same flag, and being laid to rest. Tell the family and others at the burial site why you feel offended, and ask them if they feel the celebration of your foreign holiday is more important.

Yep the old rally cry to American patriotism and how any disagreement over any issue always comes down to not supporting those proud servicemen and women who laid down their lives so bravely that the rest of the world can live in peace.

[Gray Lion]

No Bilbo...its called sacrifice and respect. And folks like you get to live under the blanket of protection that is provided by those you sneer at as "Patriotic". You get to do that in English and not German or Japanese, or Chinese, or Russian.

[Gandalf]

I'm failing to see how anybody can't see that the kids in question were just being complete dicks. I mean Bilbo has explained it well, Jaz has, amat has, CFH has and i thought i had.

Being a dick is not illegal, nor is wearing a flag (i.e see the post where I did explain it more detailed). The point is not there, it was perhaps provocative but it was far from something totally disrespectful or offensive such as burning a mexican flag or stomping a Mexican icon. You cannot kick kids out of school for their opinion when these opinions are displayed peacefully.

Yes, there is nothing to suggest that the kids were being violent in expressing themselves. If they had been wearing the flag and walking about hitting the Mexicans then I would fully empathise with the Mexicans, but just based on wearing a few silly colours I struggle to see the big deal. I find it such a bizarre thing to get upset about. I couldn't imagine a situation from my school days where someone would get so worked up by a flag, but we did have to wear uniforms up until 6th form which is possibly the best option if this is how sensitive people are going to get. And they should all have the same haircuts too just like kids do here. If you are going to get so worked up by people expressing themselves (no matter how ignorantly) then how about going the other way and showing what its like for everyone to have no freedom. Uniform clothes and haircuts is the way to deal with this. Well done, KS on solving the issue for me! Hooray!

I don't think many are getting upset by it. Maybe in Mexican communities they are. But it seems to be the American public who are upset by the fact the kids we're asked to remove the clothing, and when they refused, they were asked to go home for the day.

Out of interest Miles, where do you draw the line? What item of clothing isn't accpetable?

I think the best solution in a situation like this in a school setting is a uniform like KS suggested. I really think that is the best alternative. As it stands I don't believe that wearing a flag shirt should really be considered offensive. If the shirt had another students name on it with something provocative on it like "Debbie takes it up the pooper" then I don't think that is acceptable because Debbie is a student in the class and that is bullying and in a direct and very demeaning way. But I'm the type of person that would see no issue with someone going to Buckingham palace wearing a t-shirt with a picture of the Queen getting her head cut off by a guillotine. That person would be an adult and I believe that they should be able to express themselves freely no matter how juvenile it is. Mind you, I really wouldn't go to the effort of doing that, but have no issues with anyone that did. I would probably draw the line at having naked people on a tshirt, that's probably not a healthy thing for young kids to see. And maybe a shirt emblazoned with foul language. But where do you draw the line? Maybe some kids are against modern capitalism and big business? Are we then going to ban all logos? Where do you draw the line. I find corporate branding far more offensive than a silly flag. Either let them wear what they want at all times and rise above any rivalry or else tie them down in uniforms. Now I'm thinking that for silly school kids the later option is probably preferable.

So of course you would have no problem letting a bunch of Arabs through the Heathrow Terminals wearing tshirts that said 'Down with the UK!', or 'Death to the infidels!'?

I must say it's interesting the lengths to which you will go to preserve tshirt wearing rights, the fundamental right to offend through clothing is clearly very important to you, a basic human right almost :-)

Haha

I must start off by saying that I seldom ever wear any clothing that is in any way provocative, political nor antagonistic. I like wearing jeans and I would feel ridiculous wearing a union jack flag tshirt. I mean, how silly would that look on me? I just wouldn't go there. But in theory and if other people want to wear more provocative clothing then it shouldn't be a concern for me. I think to wear a shirt saying "Down with the UK" is a bit strong, but that's the persons choice. They shouldn't wear it in the UK though as they would probably get a kicking. Maybe something more specific like "Down with the Lib-Tory alliance" would be more palatable. But as an English man in a non uniformed public school then it shouldn't be an issue to go to school looking a bit of a sadcase in his union jack colours. People would probably laugh at him rather than get mortally offended. It's pointless to send the kid home though and any kid that wants to beat him up for it has issues themselves. There is a difference between being a provocative person with no fashion sense and being a violent thug. Not that you can't be both mind, but its the violent part that is really never cool.