Israel at it again

[CFH]

The organisations involved are known to have links to Hamas, and to support suicide bombing.

Yes, you know what they say, one man's humanitarian aid worker is another man's terrorist.

Ans also, you're just tking the piss here. Go and fuck youself you withered little midget.

I don't think there's any call for that. He's just expressing the views, be they right or wrong, that a lot of people in the West, especially in America, have.

[Gandalf]

There was no need to board the boat at that point. They were a long way from the coast and the waters are not those of Israel. Boarding that ship was illegal. Too right if you are being assaulted illegally by the military arm of a dubious state that you will try and defend yourself. The Israel's backed by helicopters, planes, armour and advanced weaponry knew exactly what they were doing and chose to affront a group of people who sought nothing more than to gain access to a sovereign and abused nation. The fact that Israel continues to blockade illegally and act like pirates is the problem here.

Why not let the ship dock, search the aid packages and then send the aid workers back on their merry way? Was that not too much to ask? It is not a crime to want to dock in Gaza, despite what the Israeli's wants us to think. And as for stealing all of the film and locking them all up? That's outrageous. Israel has essentially kidnapped and gagged them.

Israel has over the past couple of years been on a slippery slope and gradually more and more people are beginning to sit up and take notice. It is losing allies one by one and continues to infect the region with poision. These are precarious and dangerous times for the state of Israel.

[Kev]

There was no need to board the boat at that point. They were a long way from the coast and the waters are not those of Israel. Boarding that ship was illegal. Too right if you are being assaulted illegally by the military arm of a dubious state that you will try and defend yourself. The Israel's backed by helicopters, planes, armour and advanced weaponry knew exactly what they were doing and chose to affront a group of people who sought nothing more than to gain access to a sovereign and abused nation. The fact that Israel continues to blockade illegally and act like pirates is the problem here.

Why not let the ship dock, search the aid packages and then send the aid workers back on their merry way? Was that not too much to ask? It is not a crime to want to dock in Gaza, despite what the Israeli's wants us to think. And as for stealing all of the film and locking them all up? That's outrageous. Israel has essentially kidnapped and gagged them.

Israel has over the past couple of years been on a slippery slope and gradually more and more people are beginning to sit up and take notice. It is losing allies one by one and continues to infect the region with poision. These are precarious and dangerous times for the state of Israel.

You can't be serious? I would imagine letting them dock in Gaza where they would be greeted by thousands of angry Palestinians would be an invitation to an even bigger bloodbath.

There is no question the landing was bungled to say the least but it wasn't the fault of the soldiers on the ground, but rather the commnanders who sent them into a situation that they completely misread.

I also saw on the news site that in 1947 British troops boarded a Jewish refugee boat to stop them reaching Israel and shot dead three resisters. We also gassed the curds under Churchill as well of course.

These kind of incidents do happen and it's not necessarily because a group of soldiers are trigger happy. Conflicts can be hard to control.

[Gandalf]

There was no need to board the boat at that point. They were a long way from the coast and the waters are not those of Israel. Boarding that ship was illegal. Too right if you are being assaulted illegally by the military arm of a dubious state that you will try and defend yourself. The Israel's backed by helicopters, planes, armour and advanced weaponry knew exactly what they were doing and chose to affront a group of people who sought nothing more than to gain access to a sovereign and abused nation. The fact that Israel continues to blockade illegally and act like pirates is the problem here.

Why not let the ship dock, search the aid packages and then send the aid workers back on their merry way? Was that not too much to ask? It is not a crime to want to dock in Gaza, despite what the Israeli's wants us to think. And as for stealing all of the film and locking them all up? That's outrageous. Israel has essentially kidnapped and gagged them.

Israel has over the past couple of years been on a slippery slope and gradually more and more people are beginning to sit up and take notice. It is losing allies one by one and continues to infect the region with poision. These are precarious and dangerous times for the state of Israel.

You can't be serious? I would imagine letting them dock in Gaza where they would be greeted by thousands of angry Palestinians would be an invitation to an even bigger bloodbath.

There is no question the landing was bungled to say the least but it wasn't the fault of the soldiers on the ground, but rather the commnanders who sent them into a situation that they completely misread.

I also saw on the news site that in 1947 British troops boarded a Jewish refugee boat to stop them reaching Israel and shot dead three resisters. We also gassed the curds under Churchill as well of course.

These kind of incidents do happen and it's not necessarily because a group of soldiers are trigger happy. Conflicts can be hard to control.

I think the Gazan people would have appreciated the flotilla being allowed to dock and unload. They already had welcoming parties set up, this could have been a positive gesture. Israel has had every opportunity to try and foster improved relations, everyone agrees that a two state solution is the only solution, but Israel does everything it can and at every opportunity to foster resentment and usually by killing people who have done nothing wrong and denying rights to indigenous people. This was the same old story, just this time it wasn't actual Palestinian's getting the chop.

[Kirkland Laing]

The organisations involved are known to have links to Hamas, and to support suicide bombing.

Yes, you know what they say, one man's humanitarian aid worker is another man's terrorist.

Ans also, you're just tking the piss here. Go and fuck youself you withered little midget.

I don't think there's any call for that. He's just expressing the views, be they right or wrong, that a lot of people in the West, especially in America, have.

He was trolling for a reaction like I already explained. He can answer my original reply to his first post anytime now.

[Kev]

The organisations involved are known to have links to Hamas, and to support suicide bombing.

Yes, you know what they say, one man's humanitarian aid worker is another man's terrorist.

Ans also, you're just tking the piss here. Go and fuck youself you withered little midget.

I don't think there's any call for that. He's just expressing the views, be they right or wrong, that a lot of people in the West, especially in America, have.

He was trolling for a reaction like I already explained. He can answer my original reply to his first post anytime now.

So disagreeing with you is being a troll? Interesting.

I'm just pointing out there are two sides to every story. Before the blockade Hammas was bombing Israel and killing its citizens every single day. They were even sending in child suicide bombers. No other country on earth would allow terrorists to do that without retaliation and so Israel went into Gaza and sought to remove the threat.

The blockade was set up to try and prevent Hamas from rebuilding. It is a legitmate concern.

I'm not saying that Israel didn't fuck this up majorly but as it usually the case in life it is not a onesided argument. No nation on earth has greater reason to be paranoid and suspicious of their neighbours than Israel considering their history, both recent as well and historically. As a tiny nation surrounded by enemies on every side they obviously come down hard on attackers, in order to deter others from making similar threats.

It is a tragic situation all around.

[Kirkland Laing]

The organisations involved are known to have links to Hamas, and to support suicide bombing.

Yes, you know what they say, one man's humanitarian aid worker is another man's terrorist.

Ans also, you're just tking the piss here. Go and fuck youself you withered little midget.

I don't think there's any call for that. He's just expressing the views, be they right or wrong, that a lot of people in the West, especially in America, have.

He was trolling for a reaction like I already explained. He can answer my original reply to his first post anytime now.

So disagreeing with you is being a troll? Interesting.

I'm just pointing out there are two sides to every story. Before the blockade Hammas was bombing Israel and killing its citizens every single day. They were even sending in child suicide bombers. No other country on earth would allow terrorists to do that without retaliation and so Israel went into Gaza and sought to remove the threat.

The blockade was set up to try and prevent Hamas from rebuilding. It is a legitmate concern.

I'm not saying that Israel didn't fuck this up majorly but as it usually the case in life it is not a onesided argument. No nation on earth has greater reason to be paranoid and suspicious of their neighbours than Israel considering their history, both recent as well and historically. As a tiny nation surrounded by enemies on every side they obviously come down hard on attackers, in order to deter others from making similar threats.

It is a tragic situation all around.

You're not disagreeing, you posted almost exactly the same post the day before. I answered it, you ran away then came back the next day with almost exactly the same post. Here's my answer to your first post, you can answer it any time now :

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...tml#post883000

Hamas weren't killing Israelis every single day. There has never been any period since 1948 when the Palestinian death toll hasn't been significantly higher than the Israeli death toll. Suicide bombers are the result of a more than half a century of an illegal brutal military occupation, they're a reaction to aggression, not the initial aggression that starts the cycle of violence. The initial aggression is the occupation. After Israel ethnically cleansed the Palestinians out of 80% of their land in 1948 and herded the ones they didn't kill into refugee camps in the remaining 20% it took over 30 years for the Palestinians to start anything like organised military resistance, called "terrorism" by the Israelis. Up until then it had been mainly peaceful Ghandi-like protests which had exactly fuck all effect.


Hamas are zero threat to Israel and neither are any surrounding countries, countries that Israel regularly bombs and attacks, most recently Lebanon, Syria etc. Israel actually created Hamas in the first place as a tool to undermine and weken the PLO so that Israel could avoid any serious negotiations with them and play them off against Hamas to further Israel's long-term goal which is ownership of the remaining 20% of Palestine. That might sound like an absurd conspiracy theory but it's actually well-documented historical fact. Here's an article from the rabidly pro-Israel Wall Street Journal explaining about Israel promoting Hamas :

How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas - WSJ.com

If people only get the first paragraph of that article let me know and I'll post the whole thing.

And here's Israel's former Attorney General in an Israeli paper explaining Israel's tactics over the past decades :

We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities. Passionately desiring to keep the occupied territories, we developed two judicial systems: one - progressive, liberal - in Israel; and the other - cruel, injurious - in the occupied territories. In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture. That oppressive regime exists to this day. ...........


The intifada is the Palestinian people's war of national liberation. Historical processes teach us that no nation is prepared to live under another's domination and that a suppressed people's war of national liberation will inevitably succeed. We understand this point but choose to ignore it. We are prepared to engage in confrontation to prevent an historical process, although we are well aware that this process is anchored in the moral justification behind every people's war of national liberation and behind its right to self-determination, and although we are well aware that this process will attain its inevitable goal. .................


Suffice it to recall the killing of little children fleeing for safety; the executions, without trial, of wanted persons who were not on their way to launch a terrorist act; and the encirclements, closures and roadblocks that have turned the lives of millions into a nightmare. Even if all these actions stem from our need to defend ourselves under an occupation's conditions, the occupation's non-existence would render them unnecessary. Thus, a black flag hovers over these actions.


The war's seventh day - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News



So after creating Hamas as part of a long-term strategy Israel are now claiming that it's Hamas who are a "threat" and an entity so powerful that Israel need to blockade them to prevent them arming, which is ridiculous. Hamas long ago agreed to end all violence if Israel would life the Gaza blockade (actually it's been going on in various forms for nine years) and allow rebuilding. Israel's answer to this is to ignore the proposition, claim Hamas are a threat who can't be negotiated with and who must be blockaded/isolated. It's bs, like I pointed out in the post you didn't answer Israel just want to fuck Gaza up, put them "on a diet" and incite more reaction so they can go continue the slow-motion ethnic cleansing of the remaining 20%. It's a crazy policy and doomed to failure and the end of Israel as moderate Israeli leaders admit but the guys running Israel are far more extreme than Hamas ever were and due to Israel's political system the crazies constantly hold the balance of power there.

[Kev]

There is no doubt the situation in the Middle East is a big mess, but you simply go too far in your arguments to try and prove a point.

To say Hamas and the nations surrounding Israel pose no threat to the Jews is a simply incredible statement to make. For many of those countries, and Hamas themselves their stated foreign policy relating towards Israel is its total annihilation.

Israel are basically in a war zone. Yes the conditions in Palestine are no doubt shocking but they weren't any better under the Egyptians when they controlled it.

Hamas are an awful organisation. When they took power they executed the previous Fatah leaders by throwing them off of buildings. They used children as suicide bombers, they are an absolutely dispicable group.

Now that is not to say the Palestinians as a whole deserve to be treated the way they have been , and their plight is indeed a tragic one, but the situation over there is just so complex and such a mess there is no easy solution.

This flotilla as well was far from merely a peaceful group of humanitarian aid workers. They have even publicly stated their primary goal was not to deliver aid but to break the blockade to make a political message.

There were some infamous characters amongst them too including the lawyer who represented the notorious terrorist Kozo Okamoto who massacred over 25 people. Many were supporters of Hamas and members of the Egyptian parliament who have links to the Muslim brotherhood. Check out the full passenger list, an armada of hate is absolutely right.

It's also fair to point out that the purpose of many of those in the fleet was not humanitarian but rather to proclaim Islamic sovreignty over its lands.

Again it has been publicly stated that they (the Arab Muslim world) refuse to let Israel become a second Andalusia. Andalusia is the mulsim name for Spain and the only territory the expansionist muslims have ever lost. They are not motivated by the plight of the Palestinians but rather the belief that no territory be lost and ceded to non Muslims, and to the hated Jews least of all.

I'm not saying that was the unified reason for the majority of volunteers and aid workers who made up the majority of the flotilla, but it is absolutely the aim of the organisers and the most prominent passengers on board.

In relation to Israel actually founding Hamas, I have no knowledge on this and so can't comment. To be honest little in the world suprises me these days and all things are possible behind the scenes, with murderous, self interested people in positions of power and office in every nation and political organisation.

[Gandalf]

Just a few points.

The biggest threat to peace in the middle east is Israel, Bilbo. They are the nation with nuclear warheads and a trigger happy approach to things. And they are content in this position as they know they are leagues ahead of their neighbors, funded and armed up the nines by the states.

Failing to recognise that Israel has the right to exist is far different to being able to actually force it out of existance. Organisations do actually have a point on that front. Does it have a legitimate right to exist? I and many others would argue that at the theoretical level it really doesn't. But many of us accept that now it is there we might as well make the best of a bad situation.

I would like to know where this data comes from where conditions were worse under Egypt than the Israeli's. This is news to me, how much poorer can the Palestinians get? The conditions are plain awful.

Hamas might be a negative organisation historically, but they are the democratically elected representatives of the Gazan people. That should be recognised. Just because America and Israel didn't like it doesn't change the fact that this was a fair election result.

You say the flotilla was far from peaceful and that they aimed to break the blockade. To an extent this might be so, but international waters are just that. And the blockade is illegal. Israel has no right to close in the the Gazan's and make them beg for basic supplies. It is inhumane. I hope more ships try and do the same thing and challenge the blockade because our governments are a charade when it comes to the Israelis and their violations of every single kind of international law.

[Kirkland Laing]

There is no doubt the situation in the Middle East is a big mess, but you simply go too far in your arguments to try and prove a point.

1.To say Hamas and the nations surrounding Israel pose no threat to the Jews is a simply incredible statement to make. For many of those countries, and Hamas themselves their stated foreign policy relating towards Israel is its total annihilation.

Israel are basically in a war zone. Yes the conditions in Palestine are no doubt shocking but they weren't any better under the Egyptians when they controlled it.

3.Hamas are an awful organisation. When they took power they executed the previous Fatah leaders by throwing them off of buildings. They used children as suicide bombers, they are an absolutely dispicable group.

4.Now that is not to say the Palestinians as a whole deserve to be treated the way they have been , and their plight is indeed a tragic one, but the situation over there is just so complex and such a mess there is no easy solution.

5.This flotilla as well was far from merely a peaceful group of humanitarian aid workers. They have even publicly stated their primary goal was not to deliver aid but to break the blockade to make a political message.

There were some infamous characters amongst them too including the lawyer who represented the notorious terrorist Kozo Okamoto who massacred over 25 people. Many were supporters of Hamas and members of the Egyptian parliament who have links to the Muslim brotherhood. Check out the full passenger list, an armada of hate is absolutely right.

6.It's also fair to point out that the purpose of many of those in the fleet was not humanitarian but rather to proclaim Islamic sovreignty over its lands.

Again it has been publicly stated that they (the Arab Muslim world) refuse to let Israel become a second Andalusia. Andalusia is the mulsim name for Spain and the only territory the expansionist muslims have ever lost. They are not motivated by the plight of the Palestinians but rather the belief that no territory be lost and ceded to non Muslims, and to the hated Jews least of all.

I'm not saying that was the unified reason for the majority of volunteers and aid workers who made up the majority of the flotilla, but it is absolutely the aim of the organisers and the most prominent passengers on board.

In relation to Israel actually founding Hamas, I have no knowledge on this and so can't comment. To be honest little in the world suprises me these days and all things are possible behind the scenes, with murderous, self interested people in positions of power and office in every nation and political organisation.

1.No country surrounding Israel is any threat at all to them. None of them have any kind of military capability, Israel has attacked Lebanon, Syria and Jordan in the last few years and there's zero chance of any military response, they just don't have the ability. Saying neighbouring countries are a threat to Israel is like saying Mexico is a threat to America. Hamas are zero threat, exactly how can they destroy Israel, hmm? What happened when Israel invaded Gaza recently? How well did Hamas do in that confrontation?

2.Before Israel occupied Gaza the 30000 Gazans living there were all prosperous farmers. Now there are 1.5 million ethnically-cleansed refugess squeezed into the most densely populated places on earth and tens of thousands of Palestinian children, not to mention adults are currently suffering from chronic malnutrition.

3. Hamas are no worse than any other extremist group that would have evolved under a 40 year illegal occupation. They killed some Fatah men who'd done far worse to Hamas people when the Fatah guys had tried to overthrow Hamas -- the democratically elected Palestinian leaders -- a day previously. If you're going to judge this on bombing civilians and the number of civilian dead due to bombings then Israel are infinitely more evil than Hamas are.


4. Israel aren't trying for an easy solution, they're rejecting any attempt at peace to concentrate on their long-term objective of taking over the remaining 20% of Palestine.

5. The flotilla was a bunch of humanitarian workers, Nobel peace prize winners, European politicians. The only people claiming otherwise are the Israeli propaganda merchants. As you can see by the global reaction nobody belives the Israelis. Making a political statement is peaceful, no? Do you agree that highlighting the illegal collective punishment and mass starvation of 1.5 million people is a good political statement to make?

6. What? Of all the ridiculous statements you've made so far this is by far the silliest. This is just nonsense. Where did you get this shit from? Cite some credible source for this please, provide a link.

[HattonTheHammer]

israel reminds me of a kid in school who used to get away with murder but all the teachers turned a blind eye because the kids he was doing these things too were just as bad as him

Eventually though he pushed his luck too far and the little c*nt got excluded

[Kev]

There is no doubt the situation in the Middle East is a big mess, but you simply go too far in your arguments to try and prove a point.

1.To say Hamas and the nations surrounding Israel pose no threat to the Jews is a simply incredible statement to make. For many of those countries, and Hamas themselves their stated foreign policy relating towards Israel is its total annihilation.

Israel are basically in a war zone. Yes the conditions in Palestine are no doubt shocking but they weren't any better under the Egyptians when they controlled it.

3.Hamas are an awful organisation. When they took power they executed the previous Fatah leaders by throwing them off of buildings. They used children as suicide bombers, they are an absolutely dispicable group.

4.Now that is not to say the Palestinians as a whole deserve to be treated the way they have been , and their plight is indeed a tragic one, but the situation over there is just so complex and such a mess there is no easy solution.

5.This flotilla as well was far from merely a peaceful group of humanitarian aid workers. They have even publicly stated their primary goal was not to deliver aid but to break the blockade to make a political message.

There were some infamous characters amongst them too including the lawyer who represented the notorious terrorist Kozo Okamoto who massacred over 25 people. Many were supporters of Hamas and members of the Egyptian parliament who have links to the Muslim brotherhood. Check out the full passenger list, an armada of hate is absolutely right.

6.It's also fair to point out that the purpose of many of those in the fleet was not humanitarian but rather to proclaim Islamic sovreignty over its lands.

Again it has been publicly stated that they (the Arab Muslim world) refuse to let Israel become a second Andalusia. Andalusia is the mulsim name for Spain and the only territory the expansionist muslims have ever lost. They are not motivated by the plight of the Palestinians but rather the belief that no territory be lost and ceded to non Muslims, and to the hated Jews least of all.

I'm not saying that was the unified reason for the majority of volunteers and aid workers who made up the majority of the flotilla, but it is absolutely the aim of the organisers and the most prominent passengers on board.

In relation to Israel actually founding Hamas, I have no knowledge on this and so can't comment. To be honest little in the world suprises me these days and all things are possible behind the scenes, with murderous, self interested people in positions of power and office in every nation and political organisation.

1.No country surrounding Israel is any threat at all to them. None of them have any kind of military capability, Israel has attacked Lebanon, Syria and Jordan in the last few years and there's zero chance of any military response, they just don't have the ability. Saying neighbouring countries are a threat to Israel is like saying Mexico is a threat to America. Hamas are zero threat, exactly how can they destroy Israel, hmm? What happened when Israel invaded Gaza recently? How well did Hamas do in that confrontation?

2.Before Israel occupied Gaza the 30000 Gazans living there were all prosperous farmers. Now there are 1.5 million ethnically-cleansed refugess squeezed into the most densely populated places on earth and tens of thousands of Palestinian children, not to mention adults are currently suffering from chronic malnutrition.

3. Hamas are no worse than any other extremist group that would have evolved under a 40 year illegal occupation. They killed some Fatah men who'd done far worse to Hamas people when the Fatah guys had tried to overthrow Hamas -- the democratically elected Palestinian leaders -- a day previously. If you're going to judge this on bombing civilians and the number of civilian dead due to bombings then Israel are infinitely more evil than Hamas are.


4. Israel aren't trying for an easy solution, they're rejecting any attempt at peace to concentrate on their long-term objective of taking over the remaining 20% of Palestine.

5. The flotilla was a bunch of humanitarian workers, Nobel peace prize winners, European politicians. The only people claiming otherwise are the Israeli propaganda merchants. As you can see by the global reaction nobody belives the Israelis. Making a political statement is peaceful, no? Do you agree that highlighting the illegal collective punishment and mass starvation of 1.5 million people is a good political statement to make?

6. What? Of all the ridiculous statements you've made so far this is by far the silliest. This is just nonsense. Where did you get this shit from? Cite some credible source for this please, provide a link.

Ok well I'll just respond to the last one seeing as it's my silliest argument apparently.

Below is a video of the 'humanitarian aid peace workers' on the boat chanting death to Israel, and proclaiming the return of Muhammad and their desire for martyrdom, exactly in accordance with my claim that they see Israel as another Andalusia and a territory they must win back for Islam.

The real purpose of the Gaza flotilla Video

Here is an extended video showing more footage of the attack on the Israeli's as they boarded the ship, surrounded again by 'peaceful humanitarian aid workers'.

Arab Media Reports on Flotilla Participants: Writing Wills, Preparing for Martyrdom, Determined to Reach Gaza or Die — Winds Of Jihad By SheikYerMami

Below are some further links containing actual quotes from those involved, arguing that they also needed to transport weapons into Gaza to help them combat the Jewish infidels etc.

Video Clips of Gaza Flotilla Activists Chanting Songs of Martyrdom | Global Terrorism

Flotilla of Ideology: Violence and Humanitarian Aid - Grendel Report



It is a huge mess on both sides, but to pretend (or being ignorant of) the fact that this wasn't some huge propoganda mission for for the Islamists to gain support for their cause and help portray Hamas as victims to the evil Jews is just totally inaccurate.

The Islamic world cares about as much for the plight of the Gazan refugees as the Israeli's do.

They are merely pawns in a much larger religious and idealogical conflict.

Muslims want control of and destruction of Isreal. That is the goal, not the plight of the Gazan people.