Israel at it again

[Kev]

Israel had no reason to attack a ship 50 km's away from Gaza and in international waters. How could anyone on the ship have attacked had the soldiers not entered the boat? You break into my home then of course I am going to try and defend myself. I have no doubt that most of the people on those boats were peaceful people with noble intentions. I've seen the videos and read as much as I can on the issue and I still come to the same conclusions. I do see the Israeli's with the propaganda machine in full force though and can see how some might be pulled that way with the slant being given. But it would really have been much better for Isael diplomatically just to allow the ships to dock and then they could have checked the unloading process. Any trouble initiated by the 'dangerous' aid workers could have been shown for what it was on land and in full view. Maybe then the Israeli's would have had ome justification for the embargo, but I don't think it would have come to a stand off unless the aid workers were provoked by the military.

In the last 24 hours I have been called Hitler, an arsehole and now I'm nuts! Yay!

Well the Cotto/Foreman thread was ......provocative mate! I think the situation over there is much more complex than you think. And the motives of the organisers of the flotilla are not nearly as noble as you think.

Also, I don't see why Israel are suddenly annoying you more than any other nation, it's not like they are even close to being the worst nation out there.

The Egyptians have been blockading Gaza for ages too, why no outcry at them?

Even the severity of the starvation problem in Palestine is up for debate, as is also the cause. There are many commentators who argue it is Hamas who are fucking up life for their people as much, if not more than the Israeli's.

It's an incredibly complex political situation.

This rise in anti-semitism makes me genuinely fearful. History has shown us countless times that there is an almost unnatural hatred and despisement of the Jewish race and that this could be the beginning of yet another anti-semitic pogrom.

The real battle is idealogical, between the Arab and Jewish worlds. Sadly the plight of the Gazan Palestinians is no more a concern to most of the Arabs organising this flotilla as it it is to the Israeli's.

It's not about delivering aid, it's about shaping public opinion.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread, it makes everybody bad tempered and emotions run too high on both sides.

Let's chill and go back to Amir Khan bashing or discussing the right to offend through nationalistic clothing

[Gandalf]

I've always taken notice of the Israel/Palestine issue really. It tends to come up a fair bit in the reading I do. I'm reading Chomsky's "Understanding power" right now and the conflict is something that keeps on recurring. It is something that I feel strongly about and I suppose Israel comes a close fourth behind the States, the UK and Korea as countries that recieve my criticism. When an act of international terrorism occurs it has an impact.

I agree that this thread and others like it have been a bit much. They are heavy and they weigh you down. Rather than being cathartic they tend to go on and on and opinions just get recycled. The Israel/Palestine conflict is no doubt extremely complex with neither side willing to give ground. This means the Israeli's continue to be paranoid and violate international law and it also means that the Palestinians continue to be run into the ground. It's horrible. The road map to peace exists and is viable, but the elite keep on bringing up obstacles and making excuses to perpetuate the status quo.

I too am going to call it quits on this thread. It's not fun and it's consuming too much energy. The khan bashing is quite fun, but this has become too much like hardwork.

[Gandalf]

And Israel has a right to exist, but not on religious grounds. If it is able to act as a responsible state with respect for international law and a full recognition of the rights of ALL its citizens, then I have no issues with it's existance. Palestine needs to exist as a sovereign state too though and not be cut up along lobbied lines.

Right that's it. I'm really out of this thread.

[Kev]

I've always taken notice of the Israel/Palestine issue really. It tends to come up a fair bit in the reading I do. I'm reading Chomsky's "Understanding power" right now and the conflict is something that keeps on recurring. It is something that I feel strongly about and I suppose Israel comes a close fourth behind the States, the UK and Korea as countries that recieve my criticism. When an act of international terrorism occurs it has an impact.

I agree that this thread and others like it have been a bit much. They are heavy and they weigh you down. Rather than being cathartic they tend to go on and on and opinions just get recycled. The Israel/Palestine conflict is no doubt extremely complex with neither side willing to give ground. This means the Israeli's continue to be paranoid and violate international law and it also means that the Palestinians continue to be run into the ground. It's horrible. The road map to peace exists and is viable, but the elite keep on bringing up obstacles and making excuses to perpetuate the status quo.

I too am going to call it quits on this thread. It's not fun and it's consuming too much energy. The khan bashing is quite fun, but this has become too much like hardwork.

Amen to that, let us never step foot in this accursed thread again. Go back to the good old days where we could unite behind, and against the might Amir.

[Gandalf]

Absolutely, I'm not going to start any more deep threads for a while. If others want to start them then I will be there, but starting a thread means you have a responsibility to make an active contribution and I just can't be bothered. I've done a lot of these threads about all sorts of things such as the financial crisis, abolishment of the monarchy, Israel being a terrorist state and so on. They are all so bloody serious!

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

I've always taken notice of the Israel/Palestine issue really. It tends to come up a fair bit in the reading I do. I'm reading Chomsky's "Understanding power" right now and the conflict is something that keeps on recurring. It is something that I feel strongly about and I suppose Israel comes a close fourth behind the States, the UK and Korea as countries that recieve my criticism. When an act of international terrorism occurs it has an impact.

I agree that this thread and others like it have been a bit much. They are heavy and they weigh you down. Rather than being cathartic they tend to go on and on and opinions just get recycled. The Israel/Palestine conflict is no doubt extremely complex with neither side willing to give ground. This means the Israeli's continue to be paranoid and violate international law and it also means that the Palestinians continue to be run into the ground. It's horrible. The road map to peace exists and is viable, but the elite keep on bringing up obstacles and making excuses to perpetuate the status quo.

I too am going to call it quits on this thread. It's not fun and it's consuming too much energy. The khan bashing is quite fun, but this has become too much like hardwork.

Amen to that, let us never step foot in this accursed thread again. Go back to the good old days where we could unite behind, and against the might Amir.

I suppose one positive is that thanks to Bilbo I now have a copy of ''Why Does E=mc2?''

Amazon, next day delivery

[Kev]

I've always taken notice of the Israel/Palestine issue really. It tends to come up a fair bit in the reading I do. I'm reading Chomsky's "Understanding power" right now and the conflict is something that keeps on recurring. It is something that I feel strongly about and I suppose Israel comes a close fourth behind the States, the UK and Korea as countries that recieve my criticism. When an act of international terrorism occurs it has an impact.

I agree that this thread and others like it have been a bit much. They are heavy and they weigh you down. Rather than being cathartic they tend to go on and on and opinions just get recycled. The Israel/Palestine conflict is no doubt extremely complex with neither side willing to give ground. This means the Israeli's continue to be paranoid and violate international law and it also means that the Palestinians continue to be run into the ground. It's horrible. The road map to peace exists and is viable, but the elite keep on bringing up obstacles and making excuses to perpetuate the status quo.

I too am going to call it quits on this thread. It's not fun and it's consuming too much energy. The khan bashing is quite fun, but this has become too much like hardwork.

Amen to that, let us never step foot in this accursed thread again. Go back to the good old days where we could unite behind, and against the might Amir.

I suppose one positive is that thanks to Bilbo I now have a copy of ''Why Does E=mc2?''

Amazon, next day delivery

haha that made me laugh out loud. I think we should read it, disagree vehemently and then debate it angrily.

[Kev]

I knew I said I wasn't going to post again, but I couldn't resist then.

Glen Beck on Foxs has run a fascinating documentary style expose of this flotilla and it's motives.

Now I am the first to admit that Beck is about as annoying a human being as you could come across and has a conversational style that makes you want to automatically side with the opposite to what he his saying, but if you can get past that, it's an excellent starting point to see the other side as to what is really going on.

I think for the impartial it will be interesting viewing, even if you disagree. I certainly think it's important to watch if you want to have a strong opinion condemning Israel, as the information that has come out over the last few days is now overwhelmingly supportive of the fact that this attack on an 'aid convoy' has far more to the story than meets the eye.

[Howlin Mad Missy]

don't care.

Illegal blockade met with 'illegal aid flotilla'. If soliders tried to board any other vessel in international waters there would be little discussion, they would be condemned.

[Kirkland Laing]

I've always taken notice of the Israel/Palestine issue really. It tends to come up a fair bit in the reading I do. I'm reading Chomsky's "Understanding power" right now and the conflict is something that keeps on recurring. It is something that I feel strongly about and I suppose Israel comes a close fourth behind the States, the UK and Korea as countries that recieve my criticism. When an act of international terrorism occurs it has an impact.

I agree that this thread and others like it have been a bit much. They are heavy and they weigh you down. Rather than being cathartic they tend to go on and on and opinions just get recycled. The Israel/Palestine conflict is no doubt extremely complex with neither side willing to give ground. This means the Israeli's continue to be paranoid and violate international law and it also means that the Palestinians continue to be run into the ground. It's horrible. The road map to peace exists and is viable, but the elite keep on bringing up obstacles and making excuses to perpetuate the status quo.

I too am going to call it quits on this thread. It's not fun and it's consuming too much energy. The khan bashing is quite fun, but this has become too much like hardwork.

Amen to that, let us never step foot in this accursed thread again. Go back to the good old days where we could unite behind, and against the might Amir.

So you're raising the white flag of surrender and running away as fast as your minature legs can go. No surprise there.

[Kev]

I've always taken notice of the Israel/Palestine issue really. It tends to come up a fair bit in the reading I do. I'm reading Chomsky's "Understanding power" right now and the conflict is something that keeps on recurring. It is something that I feel strongly about and I suppose Israel comes a close fourth behind the States, the UK and Korea as countries that recieve my criticism. When an act of international terrorism occurs it has an impact.

I agree that this thread and others like it have been a bit much. They are heavy and they weigh you down. Rather than being cathartic they tend to go on and on and opinions just get recycled. The Israel/Palestine conflict is no doubt extremely complex with neither side willing to give ground. This means the Israeli's continue to be paranoid and violate international law and it also means that the Palestinians continue to be run into the ground. It's horrible. The road map to peace exists and is viable, but the elite keep on bringing up obstacles and making excuses to perpetuate the status quo.

I too am going to call it quits on this thread. It's not fun and it's consuming too much energy. The khan bashing is quite fun, but this has become too much like hardwork.

Amen to that, let us never step foot in this accursed thread again. Go back to the good old days where we could unite behind, and against the might Amir.

So you're raising the white flag of surrender and running away as fast as your minature legs can go. No surprise there.

Actually on the contrary I think my point has been well made. It's now proven the flotilla was put together and funded by terrorist organisations, was populated by prominent Hamas supporters, terrorists and anti semtites and had in mind this conflict all along.

Please what point are you disagreeing with me on?

Everything I say I can back up with documented evidence unlike yourself who has to resort back to irelevent arguments such as there shouldn't even be an Isreali state and that the initial occupation was illegal, which even if true has no bearing on the specific actions of the Isreali's involved in this incident some 60 years later.

You have nothing to say other than to hurl insults, I provided you with around 30 links (out of thousands it has to be said) and you didn't look at any of them.

It sums you up really.

[Gandalf]

I've just watched it and the first two parts just confirmed what I have always known. You don't mix religion and politics. You certainly do not try and create a Jewish state based upon your own religious convictions. Israel hadn't existed for a long time and it had no reason to be reformed. A state is not like a rock star, their is no need to make a comeback, especially if it is going to lead to a century of blood and unrest. What happened in WW2 was terrible, but that is no excuse. Israel should not be a state build along religious lines. I see no justification for that.

As for the flotilla, my views haven't really been altered by Beck. For sure, a small minority of the activists decided to defend the invasion of their boat with a few metal bars. But I regard the invasion of the ship itself as an act of aggresion on the part of the Israeli military. There was apparently no warning that they would be boarding and were shooting immediately. What we have seen is footage carefully chosen by the military and released to the media. Where is all the footage taken by the activists? Many of them are saying the same thing, that the Israeli's invaded and were the immediate aggressors.

I said beforehand that the work of Fox and Glenn Beck was probably not going to be the best way to change my mind and I'm pretty much of the same mindset. There were a small group amongst the flotilla that had decided that they were willing to die and they did so. I don't agree that this was the right way to go about things, but that doesn't excuse the blatant aggression by the Israeli's in international waters and from an illegal blockade. If the jihadists were going to go down fighting you would have thought they would use machine guns rather than metal pipes. It looks to me like an interesting spin by Beck, but it falls short.

No, I'm still convinced that Israel is firmly in the wrong on this, but will concede there were a tiny group of passengers on board that responded quite strongly. Invading a ship and shooting dead 9 and injuring dozens was a far stronger provocation though.

[Gandalf]

Did I really write 'their' instead of 'there'? My goodness.

Anyway, I have made my points and I stand by them. I don't think there is all that much more to add to the issue so will stop like I said. I was reading that they are sending another flotilla over which might prove interesting. And you know, I really hope they challenge the blockade again. I have no issues with challenging the Israeli's on an extremely dubious aspect of their Palestinian policy. But it shouldn't need individuals risking their lives to remove the blockade, the international community should be doing something. It doesn't help when the US vetos EVERYTHING at the UN. What can you do against that? It's no wonder that you have some individuals getting reckless. By all accounts Gaza is pretty horrendous.

Shit, it's just come on the news that the Israeli's have intercepted an Irish ship! Maybe this thread just doesn't want to die. Let's see what happens.

[Kirkland Laing]

I've always taken notice of the Israel/Palestine issue really. It tends to come up a fair bit in the reading I do. I'm reading Chomsky's "Understanding power" right now and the conflict is something that keeps on recurring. It is something that I feel strongly about and I suppose Israel comes a close fourth behind the States, the UK and Korea as countries that recieve my criticism. When an act of international terrorism occurs it has an impact.

I agree that this thread and others like it have been a bit much. They are heavy and they weigh you down. Rather than being cathartic they tend to go on and on and opinions just get recycled. The Israel/Palestine conflict is no doubt extremely complex with neither side willing to give ground. This means the Israeli's continue to be paranoid and violate international law and it also means that the Palestinians continue to be run into the ground. It's horrible. The road map to peace exists and is viable, but the elite keep on bringing up obstacles and making excuses to perpetuate the status quo.

I too am going to call it quits on this thread. It's not fun and it's consuming too much energy. The khan bashing is quite fun, but this has become too much like hardwork.

Amen to that, let us never step foot in this accursed thread again. Go back to the good old days where we could unite behind, and against the might Amir.

So you're raising the white flag of surrender and running away as fast as your minature legs can go. No surprise there.

Actually on the contrary I think my point has been well made. It's now proven the flotilla was put together and funded by terrorist organisations, was populated by prominent Hamas supporters, terrorists and anti semtites and had in mind this conflict all along.

Please what point are you disagreeing with me on?

Everything I say I can back up with documented evidence unlike yourself who has to resort back to irelevent arguments such as there shouldn't even be an Isreali state and that the initial occupation was illegal, which even if true has no bearing on the specific actions of the Isreali's involved in this incident some 60 years later.

You have nothing to say other than to hurl insults, I provided you with around 30 links (out of thousands it has to be said) and you didn't look at any of them.

It sums you up really.

You haven't replied to a single one of the six original things. And you haven't proved anything, you're just parotting Israeli propaganda. In the last year Israel has claimed that Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the part of the UN that deals with refugee crisises and humanitarian disasters and the board of directors of Oxfam have ties to Al Quaeda and other terrorist groups. Just because Israel claim something and you then parrot it doesn't mean you've proved anything. Selectively edited and incomplete video footage wouldn't be accepted as evidence in any court in the world. Now you can go back and answer one of the six points I replied to earlier or you can continue to run away. You need to reply using facts and evidence, not videos which I'm not going to bother to watch. Here they are again :


1.No country surrounding Israel is any threat at all to them. None of them have any kind of military capability, Israel has attacked Lebanon, Syria and Jordan in the last few years and there's zero chance of any military response, they just don't have the ability. Saying neighbouring countries are a threat to Israel is like saying Mexico is a threat to America. Hamas are zero threat, exactly how can they destroy Israel, hmm? What happened when Israel invaded Gaza recently? How well did Hamas do in that confrontation?

2.Before Israel occupied Gaza the 30000 Gazans living there were all prosperous farmers. Now there are 1.5 million ethnically-cleansed refugess squeezed into the most densely populated places on earth and tens of thousands of Palestinian children, not to mention adults are currently suffering from chronic malnutrition.

3. Hamas are no worse than any other extremist group that would have evolved under a 40 year illegal occupation. They killed some Fatah men who'd done far worse to Hamas people when the Fatah guys had tried to overthrow Hamas -- the democratically elected Palestinian leaders -- a day previously. If you're going to judge this on bombing civilians and the number of civilian dead due to bombings then Israel are infinitely more evil than Hamas are.


4. Israel aren't trying for an easy solution, they're rejecting any attempt at peace to concentrate on their long-term objective of taking over the remaining 20% of Palestine.

5. The flotilla was a bunch of humanitarian workers, Nobel peace prize winners, European politicians. The only people claiming otherwise are the Israeli propaganda merchants. As you can see by the global reaction nobody belives the Israelis. Making a political statement is peaceful, no? Do you agree that highlighting the illegal collective punishment and mass starvation of 1.5 million people is a good political statement to make?

6. What? Of all the ridiculous statements you've made so far this is by far the silliest. This is just nonsense. Where did you get this shit from? Cite some credible source for this please, provide a link.

[Kev]

Actually the reality of this event and the terrorist like goals of the suicide activists is beginning to get out around the world.

Even the Washington Post and Times Online have called for investigation into the IHH.

The former head of France's counter terrorism affairs for 20 years, Jean-Louis Bruguiere has publicly spoken on out and told how during his tenure they found indisputable evidence that the IHH had been infiltrated by known terrorists, that they were working Al-Queada and that they were linked to the Millenium Bomb plot.

Even the Turks raided their offices in the 90's finding caches of weapons, explosives and bomb making equipment. The Danish Institute for international studies also released a document on them 2006 exposing their terrorist links.

For your convencience you can ignore looking at it here http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publicat...2006-7.web.pdf

Are you dismissing the Danish institute findings, the findings of France's counter terrorism affairs unit, the findings of the Turkish raid on their offices as all being Israeli propaganda?

You asked for evidence and the evidence has been laid out before you, but as you said above you refuse to even look at it. I guess hate doesn't like inconvenient facts and evidence to expose the hate for what it is.

Anyway as more and more people are waking up to this now and even major world papers like Washington Post and the Daily Times are urging for an investigation into IHH I no longer feel the need to argue this with an idiot such as yourself.

I leave this thread to you to with a friendly goodbye and a song