Israel at it again

[Kev]

I've always taken notice of the Israel/Palestine issue really. It tends to come up a fair bit in the reading I do. I'm reading Chomsky's "Understanding power" right now and the conflict is something that keeps on recurring. It is something that I feel strongly about and I suppose Israel comes a close fourth behind the States, the UK and Korea as countries that recieve my criticism. When an act of international terrorism occurs it has an impact.

I agree that this thread and others like it have been a bit much. They are heavy and they weigh you down. Rather than being cathartic they tend to go on and on and opinions just get recycled. The Israel/Palestine conflict is no doubt extremely complex with neither side willing to give ground. This means the Israeli's continue to be paranoid and violate international law and it also means that the Palestinians continue to be run into the ground. It's horrible. The road map to peace exists and is viable, but the elite keep on bringing up obstacles and making excuses to perpetuate the status quo.

I too am going to call it quits on this thread. It's not fun and it's consuming too much energy. The khan bashing is quite fun, but this has become too much like hardwork.

Amen to that, let us never step foot in this accursed thread again. Go back to the good old days where we could unite behind, and against the might Amir.

So you're raising the white flag of surrender and running away as fast as your minature legs can go. No surprise there.

Actually on the contrary I think my point has been well made. It's now proven the flotilla was put together and funded by terrorist organisations, was populated by prominent Hamas supporters, terrorists and anti semtites and had in mind this conflict all along.

Please what point are you disagreeing with me on?

Everything I say I can back up with documented evidence unlike yourself who has to resort back to irelevent arguments such as there shouldn't even be an Isreali state and that the initial occupation was illegal, which even if true has no bearing on the specific actions of the Isreali's involved in this incident some 60 years later.

You have nothing to say other than to hurl insults, I provided you with around 30 links (out of thousands it has to be said) and you didn't look at any of them.

It sums you up really.

[Gandalf]

I've just watched it and the first two parts just confirmed what I have always known. You don't mix religion and politics. You certainly do not try and create a Jewish state based upon your own religious convictions. Israel hadn't existed for a long time and it had no reason to be reformed. A state is not like a rock star, their is no need to make a comeback, especially if it is going to lead to a century of blood and unrest. What happened in WW2 was terrible, but that is no excuse. Israel should not be a state build along religious lines. I see no justification for that.

As for the flotilla, my views haven't really been altered by Beck. For sure, a small minority of the activists decided to defend the invasion of their boat with a few metal bars. But I regard the invasion of the ship itself as an act of aggresion on the part of the Israeli military. There was apparently no warning that they would be boarding and were shooting immediately. What we have seen is footage carefully chosen by the military and released to the media. Where is all the footage taken by the activists? Many of them are saying the same thing, that the Israeli's invaded and were the immediate aggressors.

I said beforehand that the work of Fox and Glenn Beck was probably not going to be the best way to change my mind and I'm pretty much of the same mindset. There were a small group amongst the flotilla that had decided that they were willing to die and they did so. I don't agree that this was the right way to go about things, but that doesn't excuse the blatant aggression by the Israeli's in international waters and from an illegal blockade. If the jihadists were going to go down fighting you would have thought they would use machine guns rather than metal pipes. It looks to me like an interesting spin by Beck, but it falls short.

No, I'm still convinced that Israel is firmly in the wrong on this, but will concede there were a tiny group of passengers on board that responded quite strongly. Invading a ship and shooting dead 9 and injuring dozens was a far stronger provocation though.

[Gandalf]

Did I really write 'their' instead of 'there'? My goodness.

Anyway, I have made my points and I stand by them. I don't think there is all that much more to add to the issue so will stop like I said. I was reading that they are sending another flotilla over which might prove interesting. And you know, I really hope they challenge the blockade again. I have no issues with challenging the Israeli's on an extremely dubious aspect of their Palestinian policy. But it shouldn't need individuals risking their lives to remove the blockade, the international community should be doing something. It doesn't help when the US vetos EVERYTHING at the UN. What can you do against that? It's no wonder that you have some individuals getting reckless. By all accounts Gaza is pretty horrendous.

Shit, it's just come on the news that the Israeli's have intercepted an Irish ship! Maybe this thread just doesn't want to die. Let's see what happens.

[Gandalf]

This is a good video summarising the incident and appraising some of the response in Israel itself. There needs to be a full independant inquiry. I've a feeling it will result once again, like the Goldstone report, result in strong criticism of the Israeli's. Of course they will dismiss it and carry on regardless.



I was also watching this video with Norman Finkelstein and he actually comes out and calls Israel a lunatic state. He is right in that Israel needs to make some serious choices. If it carries on like it is, it will no doubt implode at some later juncture. It is acting in a very dishonest and irrational manner right now and the incidents do seem to be accumulating. Even America will be forced to frown at some point.



This thread is like a drug.

[Kev]

Did I really write 'their' instead of 'there'? My goodness.

Anyway, I have made my points and I stand by them. I don't think there is all that much more to add to the issue so will stop like I said. I was reading that they are sending another flotilla over which might prove interesting. And you know, I really hope they challenge the blockade again. I have no issues with challenging the Israeli's on an extremely dubious aspect of their Palestinian policy. But it shouldn't need individuals risking their lives to remove the blockade, the international community should be doing something. It doesn't help when the US vetos EVERYTHING at the UN. What can you do against that? It's no wonder that you have some individuals getting reckless. By all accounts Gaza is pretty horrendous.

Shit, it's just come on the news that the Israeli's have intercepted an Irish ship! Maybe this thread just doesn't want to die. Let's see what happens.

Out of interest Miles how do you think the Americans would respond if a fleet of 'humatarian aid vessels' from Iran or Afghanistan attempted to sail into Cuba in defiance of the longstanding embargo to provide aid to the oppressed Cubans?

Can you even imagine them being told by the US navy to cease and being invited to dock at Port Manatee, and instead defying the order and saying 'Negative, we go to Cuba!!!'

What do you seriously think would happen?

Imagine if they tried to sail into Pearl Harbour?

Any fleet of ships that attempted to do so, refused to stop and resisted would not be borderd, they would be torpedoed and sunk with fiery death rained down from the skies.

Also, the boarding by the Israeli's wasn't a sudden thing event as you seem to think, it followed hours of negotiating.

There were 6 ships. Five behaved like humanitarian aid vessels. They didn't protest, the IDF was allowed to board, in order to inspect the cargo and their were no problems.

The Marvi Marmara however was NOT an aid fleet, it was populated by terrorists as you can clearly see from the video's. The Israeli's had no choice but to board the boat, as no country in the world allow a ship to go unchallenged like that.

I will watch those video's you posted, but I am out on an all day piss up now starting in 30 minutes so I have to get ready!

Catch you later on although I most definitely won't be entering this thread pissed up.

[Gandalf]

Well, I think the Cuban embargo is ridiculous as well, but that is only really between the States and Cuba. It's a whole different thing from one nation refusing to allow another nation sea and air traffic freedom and furthermore restricting and monitoring all incoming aid from all other parts of the world.

What we are seeing is quite unusual with these boats, but I think quite neccessary. There has been a shift in the media response which has been pleasing. The mainstream media has responded fairly well on this issue and I'm curious to see what happens with this current ship. They have said they will not resist, so hopefully it won't lead to bloodshed, but I would like these ships keep on going out and for people to carry on giving their support to the Gazan people and for it to be a thorn in the Israeli's side.

What I would like above all is a change in Israeli and American attitudes at the elite level, but that is obviously never going to happen. If they could adjust and stop being so extreme then progress could be made. Obama obviously has no idea regarding the middle east and is following the same advisory teams as previous presidents. It was good to hear 'settlements' being mentioned by Biden, but you know that they will continue to be built regardless. It really is a case of allowing Israel to continue to impose it's will in the region unchecked. It's the same old story.

Rather than giving billions of dollars a year to Israel, I think it would be a great gesture for the Americans to at least make a valid contribution to the reconstruction of Gaza and pressure Israel to alter it's stance. Having been reading about US government intervention around the world since WW2 I won't hold my breath on seeing any positive changes in policy any time soon though. "You have free elections, but you don't like the Israeli's and you shoot rockets occasionally...in this case you are extremists!". "You commit international espionage, you repress an entire nation of people, invade them when US presidents are not paying attention, but you are at the end of the day open to our business models. In that case we like you. We regard you as moderate". It's a common theme throughout the years. There is no morality and only political self interest involved. I guess Israel and America are too alike for there to be any real changes at the top, but hopefully the rest of the world will gradually wake up. I like the talk I am hearing from Turkey. Cutting ties with Israel would be a great start.

[Gandalf]

Interview with Hamas part 3. Hamas suggesting some solutions to the issue. All things considered that is as reasonable as you can expect.

[Kev]

Finally the truth is coming out. The Times newspaper have now published the truth about the IHH. A terrorist organisation who helped organise the Millenium Bomb Plot....

Turkish charity that sent aid convoy to Gaza ‘has links to terrorism’ - Times Online

Hopefully Cameron and Clegg will now get behind Israel and support them against their enemies.

[Kirkland Laing]

I've always taken notice of the Israel/Palestine issue really. It tends to come up a fair bit in the reading I do. I'm reading Chomsky's "Understanding power" right now and the conflict is something that keeps on recurring. It is something that I feel strongly about and I suppose Israel comes a close fourth behind the States, the UK and Korea as countries that recieve my criticism. When an act of international terrorism occurs it has an impact.

I agree that this thread and others like it have been a bit much. They are heavy and they weigh you down. Rather than being cathartic they tend to go on and on and opinions just get recycled. The Israel/Palestine conflict is no doubt extremely complex with neither side willing to give ground. This means the Israeli's continue to be paranoid and violate international law and it also means that the Palestinians continue to be run into the ground. It's horrible. The road map to peace exists and is viable, but the elite keep on bringing up obstacles and making excuses to perpetuate the status quo.

I too am going to call it quits on this thread. It's not fun and it's consuming too much energy. The khan bashing is quite fun, but this has become too much like hardwork.

Amen to that, let us never step foot in this accursed thread again. Go back to the good old days where we could unite behind, and against the might Amir.

So you're raising the white flag of surrender and running away as fast as your minature legs can go. No surprise there.

Actually on the contrary I think my point has been well made. It's now proven the flotilla was put together and funded by terrorist organisations, was populated by prominent Hamas supporters, terrorists and anti semtites and had in mind this conflict all along.

Please what point are you disagreeing with me on?

Everything I say I can back up with documented evidence unlike yourself who has to resort back to irelevent arguments such as there shouldn't even be an Isreali state and that the initial occupation was illegal, which even if true has no bearing on the specific actions of the Isreali's involved in this incident some 60 years later.

You have nothing to say other than to hurl insults, I provided you with around 30 links (out of thousands it has to be said) and you didn't look at any of them.

It sums you up really.

You haven't replied to a single one of the six original things. And you haven't proved anything, you're just parotting Israeli propaganda. In the last year Israel has claimed that Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the part of the UN that deals with refugee crisises and humanitarian disasters and the board of directors of Oxfam have ties to Al Quaeda and other terrorist groups. Just because Israel claim something and you then parrot it doesn't mean you've proved anything. Selectively edited and incomplete video footage wouldn't be accepted as evidence in any court in the world. Now you can go back and answer one of the six points I replied to earlier or you can continue to run away. You need to reply using facts and evidence, not videos which I'm not going to bother to watch. Here they are again :


1.No country surrounding Israel is any threat at all to them. None of them have any kind of military capability, Israel has attacked Lebanon, Syria and Jordan in the last few years and there's zero chance of any military response, they just don't have the ability. Saying neighbouring countries are a threat to Israel is like saying Mexico is a threat to America. Hamas are zero threat, exactly how can they destroy Israel, hmm? What happened when Israel invaded Gaza recently? How well did Hamas do in that confrontation?

2.Before Israel occupied Gaza the 30000 Gazans living there were all prosperous farmers. Now there are 1.5 million ethnically-cleansed refugess squeezed into the most densely populated places on earth and tens of thousands of Palestinian children, not to mention adults are currently suffering from chronic malnutrition.

3. Hamas are no worse than any other extremist group that would have evolved under a 40 year illegal occupation. They killed some Fatah men who'd done far worse to Hamas people when the Fatah guys had tried to overthrow Hamas -- the democratically elected Palestinian leaders -- a day previously. If you're going to judge this on bombing civilians and the number of civilian dead due to bombings then Israel are infinitely more evil than Hamas are.


4. Israel aren't trying for an easy solution, they're rejecting any attempt at peace to concentrate on their long-term objective of taking over the remaining 20% of Palestine.

5. The flotilla was a bunch of humanitarian workers, Nobel peace prize winners, European politicians. The only people claiming otherwise are the Israeli propaganda merchants. As you can see by the global reaction nobody belives the Israelis. Making a political statement is peaceful, no? Do you agree that highlighting the illegal collective punishment and mass starvation of 1.5 million people is a good political statement to make?

6. What? Of all the ridiculous statements you've made so far this is by far the silliest. This is just nonsense. Where did you get this shit from? Cite some credible source for this please, provide a link.

[Kev]

Actually the reality of this event and the terrorist like goals of the suicide activists is beginning to get out around the world.

Even the Washington Post and Times Online have called for investigation into the IHH.

The former head of France's counter terrorism affairs for 20 years, Jean-Louis Bruguiere has publicly spoken on out and told how during his tenure they found indisputable evidence that the IHH had been infiltrated by known terrorists, that they were working Al-Queada and that they were linked to the Millenium Bomb plot.

Even the Turks raided their offices in the 90's finding caches of weapons, explosives and bomb making equipment. The Danish Institute for international studies also released a document on them 2006 exposing their terrorist links.

For your convencience you can ignore looking at it here http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publicat...2006-7.web.pdf

Are you dismissing the Danish institute findings, the findings of France's counter terrorism affairs unit, the findings of the Turkish raid on their offices as all being Israeli propaganda?

You asked for evidence and the evidence has been laid out before you, but as you said above you refuse to even look at it. I guess hate doesn't like inconvenient facts and evidence to expose the hate for what it is.

Anyway as more and more people are waking up to this now and even major world papers like Washington Post and the Daily Times are urging for an investigation into IHH I no longer feel the need to argue this with an idiot such as yourself.

I leave this thread to you to with a friendly goodbye and a song

[Kirkland Laing]

Actually the reality of this event and the terrorist like goals of the suicide activists is beginning to get out around the world.

Even the Washington Post and Times Online have called for investigation into the IHH.

The former head of France's counter terrorism affairs for 20 years, Jean-Louis Bruguiere has publicly spoken on out and told how during his tenure they found indisputable evidence that the IHH had been infiltrated by known terrorists, that they were working Al-Queada and that they were linked to the Millenium Bomb plot.

Even the Turks raided their offices in the 90's finding caches of weapons, explosives and bomb making equipment. The Danish Institute for international studies also released a document on them 2006 exposing their terrorist links.

For your convencience you can ignore looking at it here http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publicat...2006-7.web.pdf

Are you dismissing the Danish institute findings, the findings of France's counter terrorism affairs unit, the findings of the Turkish raid on their offices as all being Israeli propaganda?

You asked for evidence and the evidence has been laid out before you, but as you said above you refuse to even look at it. I guess hate doesn't like inconvenient facts and evidence to expose the hate for what it is.

Anyway as more and more people are waking up to this now and even major world papers like Washington Post and the Daily Times are urging for an investigation into IHH I no longer feel the need to argue this with an idiot such as yourself.

I leave this thread to you to with a friendly goodbye and a song

Turkey is a democratic state and a NATO ally with their own Kurdish terrorism problem. They're not going to allow any kind of terrorist group to operate in their country. The IHH are one of many humanitarian groups who organised the convoy and other than Israeli propaganda outlets nobody else is claiming the flotilla has anything to do with terrorism. Some people who may have been part of the IHH who later turned out to be terrorists is no reflection on the IHH. The US army recently had a terrorist incident caused by one of their own people who "infiltrated" the US army by enlisting, but this does not make the US army a terrorist organisation. I see you're continuing to wave the white flag when it comes to repying to the points I made regaring your initial ridiculous claims and are now running away. Farewell, gnomish invalid.