Very cool video regarding Israel's defensible borders and territory negotiations.

[Kev]

I have an extreme dislike for most elites and Israeli elites are no different. The elites I have the biggest issues with are planted firmly in Washington. The US is a far bigger terrorist state than Israel and I regard Obama and most other presidents as war criminals. Of course they will never be tried as such and that's the way the power game goes. The UK is another despicable country with a history of attrocities. The thing with Israel is that it is currently on a very hot streak of despicable form and that is why it has my ire. It is only natural that all of these countries are allies.

Stop talking about 'the Jews' Bilbo and let's start referring to them as the 'elites'. I couldn't care less if they are Arab, Jew, Christian or zoo gorilla, but if the elites amongst any of them are causing problems then I will observe and potentially comment. I don't hate 'the Jews' and I am quite content with the existence of Israel, but it would be nice if the elite in Israel would simply move away from the draconian policies that have led to the current state of revulsion many are now beginning to feel about it. It is not the citizens within a country that one loathes it is the attitudes and policies of the elite. Most Israeli's are just living their lives and are no different to people in other countries, I harbour no resentment to such people. But I do resent an elite who deny Arabs living within Israeli borders planning permission and the same access to rights as other Jewish citizens. That's how apartheid comes about. A class system based upon ethnicity and religion. That's not cool. Furthermore, If they have no expansionist desires then they should push for a two state solution and allow Palestinians to control all of their own resources without fear of any consequences. Ever wondered why they resist this?

Even now after agreeing to reduce the blockage, aid agencies are saying it goes nowhere near far enough. Seems like even agreeing to a non independant enquiry is not enough to make the elite half way civilised. It's give and take and with the Israeli elite it is take, take, take and throw a little bone back in return.

I do agree with that sentiment to a degree, but only to a degree. First of all yes I think both the US and Great Britain have acted very badly at times out of self interest but probably no more so than other countries.

I certainly don't think Isreal have ever behaved as badly however. They didn't wipe out an entire continent or carve out a world empire, on the contrary they have been under threat of extinction and being wiped out wherever they have lived on this earth.

If you want to talk about the Israeli's ethnically cleansing the Palestinians then you HAVE to also admit to the Arabs ethnically cleansing 800,000 Arab Jews. You also HAVE to admit it's been the Arabs who have consistently attacked Israel in the past.

I'm not sure if you are aware but the Palestinians were massacering Jews before they even had a Jewish state.

You could argue they started it by massacring in cold blood 69 Jews in Hebron in 1929 and another 18 at Safed the same year. This was 20 years before the Israel was created.

A commision of enquiry at the time led by Sir Walter Shaw found amongst other things that this was ' from the beginning an attack by Arabs on Jews for which no excuse in the form of earlier murders by Jews has been established.'

In fact it goes back even further, to 1834 when again in Safed the Palestinian Arabs brutally ethnically cleasened the entire city of several thousand Jews causing them to hide in caves for a month and left destitute and homeless. Safed plunder 1834 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So the kinds of charges you are laying against Isreal, were committed upon them by the very people you say are the 'victims' now.

I guess after the Safed pogrom of 1834, the Hebron massacre of 1929, the Arab riots of 1936-39, and then the five nation combined attack in 1948 by Egypt, Syria, Lebonnon, Jordan and Iraq, the Jews were probably thinking the Arabs didn't like them very much and that trying to resaon with them probably wasn't to going to help much.

By the time the Arabs invaded again in 1967,, again with the combined forces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria, with Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria all providing arms and military assistance the Jews were in no real mood to negotiate at all.

Of course the Arabs were not done yet and in 1973 launced yet another suprise attack, violating cease fire lines, on Yom Kippor, the most holy day of Judaism, when everyone was fasting.

Once again Israel repelled the attack and since then has pretty much accepted that the whole Arab world hates them, that they will never recognise their right to exist and will only continue to seek to destroy and gain revenge for the previous 'great catastrophes' as they call them.

Given the level of hatred and persecution these people have had to endure, and all this after coming straight from the concentration camps I think they should be cut some slack in all honesty.

You talk about apartheid but in reality this is just not true. There are many Israeli Arabs in the Knesset, also soldiers and police force. Arab citizens get full legal rights. Meanwhile no Jews are allowed to live in Jordan or Saudi Arabia and in Egypt, Egyptians actually lose their citizenship if they marry an Isreali, that sounds more like apartheid to me!

As for the Israeli's not offering a two-state solution. It was offered to Palestine in 1936 and 1947. They were offered the West Bank and Gaza in exchange for peace after 1967 and were met with the famous 'three noes', and again more than 90 percent of the territories were offered them in 2000, to which the Palestinians responded by launching the 'Second Intifada' campaign against the Isreali's

Even as recently as 2008 Ehud Olmert tried to offer them a deal and was rejected.

Going back further into history actually Palestine used to be much bigger, incorporating most of what is now Jordan. But Winston Churchill sold 80% of the land to King Abdullah. So Jordan is actually East Palestine, and thus the Arabs WERE given a state of Palestine.

Anyway I just think your bias is incredibly short sighted. Israel have face war against the Arabs on 4 occasions and understandably want to hold onto certain territories for defence purposes as that video I put at the start of the thread clearly demonstrates.

They CANNOT concede that territory because it will just become a hotbed of terror and a launchpad from which the Arabs can attack straight into Tel Aviv itself.

The more I study about the history the more I think the Israeli's have acted with great restraint.

They now face a new rising terror campaign, this time under the guise of humanitarian aid, which that document I showed you conclusively proves, and is completely independent of the Israeli's as well.

In conclusion, the Israeli's are not elites, they are a tiny, tiny nation in the midst of an entirely hostile Arab world that seek only to see it destroyed. They will not oblige and instead choose to defend themselves, and for that you hate them.