Very cool video regarding Israel's defensible borders and territory negotiations.

[Gandalf]

Bilbo, Finkelstein was in no way owned. In fact he has been proven correct on all counts.
This is the woman who got the video out BTW. Anyway, Finkelstein could be an old bore, waffling on, but he isn't. He is thoroughly enertaining.

[Kev]

Bilbo, Finkelstein was in no way owned. In fact he has been proven correct on all counts.
This is the woman who got the video out BTW. Anyway, Finkelstein could be an old bore, waffling on, but he isn't. He is thoroughly enertaining.

Hmm not the most damning of footage was it, it didn't show a single Israeli attacking anybody. She also talked about the ship brodcasting messages of no resistance prior to the Israeli's docking but interestingly didn't seem to record that bit.

She wasn't even on the deck where the action was taking place she was downstairs.

Her video doesn't alter the Isreali story one bit. When you have the actual leader of the IHH prior to the voyage caught on video tape urging the Muslim brothers to fight the Isreali cockroaches and throw them overboard, and when you see the videos of the terrorists, sorry I mean aid workers prior to reaching Gaza talking about their hopes for martydom and killing a few Jews you can see exactly what happened.

I don't believe everybody in the entire convoy was a terrorist, of course, not, but there is absolutely no doubt that the Mavi Marmara was taken over by a large number of them, the video evidence is beyond dispute imo.

Pretty weak video, that just corroborates what the Israeli's have said so far.

[Gandalf]

Most of the people on the ship were activists and journalists. I don't think anybody is seriously claiming otherwise. In the heat of the moment some decided to defend themselves against the threat of occupation and the military totally lost control. Like Finkelstein said, why board the ship if you weren't looking for a fight? You could always shoot out the propeller. The ship wouldn't be going anywhere. Face it, the Israeli's totally screwed this one up.

[Kev]

Most of the people on the ship were activists and journalists. I don't think anybody is seriously claiming otherwise. In the heat of the moment some decided to defend themselves against the threat of occupation and the military totally lost control. Like Finkelstein said, why board the ship if you weren't looking for a fight? You could always shoot out the propeller. The ship wouldn't be going anywhere. Face it, the Israeli's totally screwed this one up.

I don't disagree with you on that. Personally I think they should have torpedoed the boat when they replied 'Our destination is Gaza'. Throw them a few lifejackets and get a couple inflatable rafts for them, then let them call Turkey, Iran, the UN or whoever else they like to help save them from drowning and escort them back home.

If a video of Israeli officials calling the muslims activists 'cockroaches' and urging a violent confrontation on board the Mavi Marmara surfaced there would be an international outcry.

So why is it not the same here? I've never heard the head of the Red Cross or McMillan Cancer charity refer to a race of people as cockroaches and then urge their fellow aid workers and charity members to kill them and humiliate them in front of the world. It's rather atypical behaviour for a registered charity don't you think?

And then when you consider they have previously been raided and caught with explosives, ammunition, missiles and other weapons with plans to support terror groups around the world it seems to me that calling these a charity is a bit rich.

The IHH are a terrorist organisation. It doesn't mean every activist who joined the convoy was a terrorist, but the organisers most definitely were. They didn't go to deliver aid, they went to cause a confrontation and fight the Israeli's.

[Gandalf]

Most of the people on the ship were activists and journalists. I don't think anybody is seriously claiming otherwise. In the heat of the moment some decided to defend themselves against the threat of occupation and the military totally lost control. Like Finkelstein said, why board the ship if you weren't looking for a fight? You could always shoot out the propeller. The ship wouldn't be going anywhere. Face it, the Israeli's totally screwed this one up.

I don't disagree with you on that. Personally I think they should have torpedoed the boat when they replied 'Our destination is Gaza'. Throw them a few lifejackets and get a couple inflatable rafts for them, then let them call Turkey, Iran, the UN or whoever else they like to help save them from drowning and escort them back home.

If a video of Israeli officials calling the muslims activists 'cockroaches' and urging a violent confrontation on board the Mavi Marmara surfaced there would be an international outcry.

So why is it not the same here? I've never heard the head of the Red Cross or McMillan Cancer charity refer to a race of people as cockroaches and then urge their fellow aid workers and charity members to kill them and humiliate them in front of the world. It's rather atypical behaviour for a registered charity don't you think?

And then when you consider they have previously been raided and caught with explosives, ammunition, missiles and other weapons with plans to support terror groups around the world it seems to me that calling these a charity is a bit rich.

The IHH are a terrorist organisation. It doesn't mean every activist who joined the convoy was a terrorist, but the organisers most definitely were. They didn't go to deliver aid, they went to cause a confrontation and fight the Israeli's.

As far as I am aware the boat was filled with aid, so we would have to assume that the aid was planned for the Gazan people. The challenge to the blockade was just IMO, so I have no issues with that. The blockage is illegal and inhumane and seeing as the international community was ignoring Gaza something did need to be done. To an extent it has worked, though the Israeli's have really only provided lip service to easing the blockade so far.

Where were the weapons to gun down the Israeli's, Bilbo? You see, if I was really intent on causing the destruction of the Israeli military I wouldn't use a metal pole or a bread knife. You can't know the background of everyone on the ship so it might well be the case that there more unsavoury elements on board, but we just don't know. If I was assaulted by the Israeli military there is the slight possibility that I would say something mildly hateful and racist. I'm the guy that once got arrested for calling a police officer a wanker. So I can kind of see where language and attitudes from the ship came from. The Israeli's aren't known for their hospitable treatment of Arabs within Israel nor the occupied lands.

[Kev]

Most of the people on the ship were activists and journalists. I don't think anybody is seriously claiming otherwise. In the heat of the moment some decided to defend themselves against the threat of occupation and the military totally lost control. Like Finkelstein said, why board the ship if you weren't looking for a fight? You could always shoot out the propeller. The ship wouldn't be going anywhere. Face it, the Israeli's totally screwed this one up.

I don't disagree with you on that. Personally I think they should have torpedoed the boat when they replied 'Our destination is Gaza'. Throw them a few lifejackets and get a couple inflatable rafts for them, then let them call Turkey, Iran, the UN or whoever else they like to help save them from drowning and escort them back home.

If a video of Israeli officials calling the muslims activists 'cockroaches' and urging a violent confrontation on board the Mavi Marmara surfaced there would be an international outcry.

So why is it not the same here? I've never heard the head of the Red Cross or McMillan Cancer charity refer to a race of people as cockroaches and then urge their fellow aid workers and charity members to kill them and humiliate them in front of the world. It's rather atypical behaviour for a registered charity don't you think?

And then when you consider they have previously been raided and caught with explosives, ammunition, missiles and other weapons with plans to support terror groups around the world it seems to me that calling these a charity is a bit rich.

The IHH are a terrorist organisation. It doesn't mean every activist who joined the convoy was a terrorist, but the organisers most definitely were. They didn't go to deliver aid, they went to cause a confrontation and fight the Israeli's.

As far as I am aware the boat was filled with aid, so we would have to assume that the aid was planned for the Gazan people. The challenge to the blockade was just IMO, so I have no issues with that. The blockage is illegal and inhumane and seeing as the international community was ignoring Gaza something did need to be done. To an extent it has worked, though the Israeli's have really only provided lip service to easing the blockade so far.

Where were the weapons to gun down the Israeli's, Bilbo? You see, if I was really intent on causing the destruction of the Israeli military I wouldn't use a metal pole or a bread knife. You can't know the background of everyone on the ship so it might well be the case that there more unsavoury elements on board, but we just don't know. If I was assaulted by the Israeli military there is the slight possibility that I would say something mildly hateful and racist. I'm the guy that once got arrested for calling a police officer a wanker. So I can kind of see where language and attitudes from the ship came from. The Israeli's aren't known for their hospitable treatment of Arabs within Israel nor the occupied lands.

It was MARTYDOM that they wanted, to create a propaganda campaign! If they had guns it wouldn't look good for them would it.

Please, please, please seeing as you insist on us educating ourselves read the document produced by the Danish Institute in 2006

http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publicat...2006-7.web.pdf


It is spelled out very clearly, what these new radical Islamic charities are up to. And the Danes have nothing to do with Israel, so you can't just dismiss this Jewish propaganda.

Read it.

[Gandalf]

We don't know for sure what was in the minds of the dead, Bilbo. Maybe they really wanted martyrdom and if so then that's what they got. It still doesn't excuse boarding the ship and opening fire on at least five dozen passengers. One guy was shot in the head several times at point blank range. He was quite the martyr! There really wasn't much need for all the excess blood letting. The Israeli's could have handled it far better than they did.

We don't know the ins and outs of each of the passengers on the boat and I am willing to accept that the paper you posted has valid claims about the dubious links of some aid organisations. But this particular vessel sure didn't act like a particularly effective terrorist group and it's quite apparent that most of the people on the ship were not terrorists.

It's old news really and I think we are starting to go over old ground again. I think I am going to go and watch Finkelstein against Dershowitz as I haven't seen this debate before.