Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.

[Fenster]

Again you show you just read boxing. You don't really watch it. HBO might of been appalled with Marquez-Norwood. But the blame was placed on Norwood. They were also down right disgusted with Hamed-Soto. Lampley was embarrassed. Merchant called it one of the worse fights ever. People walked out of it. Both stated Soto's title was meaningless. HBO was forced into the Soto fight cuz of it's contract. They never wanted the fight. It's the reason it was held in Detroit and not Las Vegas. Come on now. It's really not that hard to figure out

Every time someone answers a question with a question is cuz they have no answer. I see you refused to answer my question regarding what elite fighter Hamed beat in his prime. Not surprised. Cuz one doesn't exist. Even more proof that Hamed not only ducked Marquez but ducked every good fighter out there.

As for your question? I'll answer it anyway. He was the uncrowned WBA champion. Anybody that seen the fight knows that Marquez deserved the win over Norwood. HBO had him winning. If you argue that point than it clearly tells me you never seen the fight. Facts are facts. I find it hilarious you got the audacity to ask what Marquez did to earn a shot. While at the same time try and make it seem like Paul Ingle was worthy of one.

An utterly embarrassing guess at the actual reality. Here's the truth...

1) Soto-Naz was held in Detroit because it holds one of the biggest Arab populations in the world (outside of the Middle East). They sold 13,000+ tickets for that fight. Fact.

2) The HBO team, although slightly favouring Marquez over Norwood, stated it could have gone either way. Fact.

3) Whether Marquez beat Norwood or not, it was after this fight that Naz offered him his shot, which as we all now know, courtesy of my bombproof factual evidence, he sadly refused. Fact.

So in summation - Marquez was given a shot to become the lineal featherweight champion, offered the biggest payday of his life and the chance to become an overnight boxing star.

Naz wanted it. HBO wanted it. The fans wanted it. Marquez bottled it. Fact.

Third time you have failed to answer my question. I don't blame you. Any attempt would lead to failure. You would pretty much be destroying your own points instead of me doing it

All my points are backed up with irrefutable evidence. The only thing that's failed is your boxing knowledge.

Your question has nothing to do with the topic. However, I am willing to give you a go...

Name me all the prime featherweights Naz ducked between 1997 and 2000?

That's four times. Come on now Fenster. Back in the day there was never a need for me to ask twice. You always had an answer. They were wrong like 90% of the time. But you at least gave one. And you were quick with them too. Now here I am asking 4 times? I always considered you to be a lot of things. Never thought coward/duck/yellow was one of them.

Come now VD. How can I name a prime/elite featherweight between 1997 and 2000 if I don't know of one? In this particualr instance I will bow to your superior knowledge. Please educate me.

Don't play modest with me. Your google and boxing rec skills are legendary. Shouldn't be to hard for you. Not only that. I never said it had to be a featherweight. Name me a elite fighter Naseem Hamed beat or even fought who was in his prime. Any weight.

He was a featherweight from winning the "world" title to retirement. So you'll do well to find someone he fought outside that. It's like asking - what prime/elite welterweight did Tyson ever beat? Nonsense.

Define elite?

I would say winning a "world" title and having a top ten Ring rating qualifies you as an elite featherweight, therefore - Robinson, Johnson, Vazquez, Kelley, Medina, Soto, Ingle, Bungu etc..

Naz beat plenty of elite fighters sharing his weight-class. Fact.

Next?

This was hilarious and sad at the same time. Going by your way of thinking, I think Trevor Berbick place in history should be reevaluated. The man did beat the Greatest. No bigger elite name than that. Oh that's right. Ali was a walking corpse. Calling him shot would actually of been a complimeant. Like a lot of those names Hamed beat wasn't in his prime. Not only that but some of the guys you listed wouldn't be called elite by there own mother.

Steve Robinson: Are you fucking kidding me? The man was never good much less elite. He was average on his best day. The cult following this clown has in the UK shows the true lack of knowledge across the ocean. Fact

Tom Johnson: A good fighter in his prime. By the time Hamed got him he was taking part in his 49th career fight. He was on a serious decline. If it wasn't for a gift win against Jose Badillo he wouldn't even of been champion. Fact

Wilfredo Vazquez Sr: A boaderline HOF fighter. I don't knock this win for Hamed cuz Vazquez was the lineal champion. But to even think he was prime is down right moronic. The Hamed fight was Vazquez 60th career fight. Fact

Kevin Kelley: Hamed's debut was an exciting one. Against a worn out Kelley who was taking part in his 51st career fight. Fact

Cesar Soto: Never was called elite. But he had 63 career fights. So he was perfect for Hamed. Fact

Paul Ingle: LOL. Stop it. Just stop it

Vuyani Bungu: Smaller fighter who moved up in weight. Had 39 career fights coming in. But had been inactive for over a year. Fact

Manuel Medina: The man had already fought 59 times before facing Hamed. Fact

No elite fighters in there prime ever shared a ring with Hamed. Fact. This was to easy.

Complete and utter laughable codswollop.

Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.

All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.

What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?

So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.

[Violent Demise]

Complete and utter laughable codswollop.

Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.

All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.

What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?

So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.

I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.

You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.

[Fenster]

Complete and utter laughable codswollop.

Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.

All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.

What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?

So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.

I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.

You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.

Yet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge

1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.

2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.

3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.

[ICB]

Complete and utter laughable codswollop.

Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.

All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.

What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?

So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.

I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.

You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.

Yet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge

1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.

2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.

3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.

Junior Jones was past his prime when he fought Paul Ingle though Fenster, his legs were gone and he only just about got past Richard Evatt beforehand. Junior Jones in his prime the one that defeated MAB x2, Orlando Canizalez, John Michael Johnson, Jorge Eliecer Julio. Around that time he was special fighter, its only his chin that let him down and inconsistency.

As for Kennedy McKinney he was just as talented as Junior Jones, he seemed to go down hill pretty quickly i heard it was from drugs. Which is a shame considering how great he looked against Welcome Ncita, MAB, Paul Banke.

I tell you there is one Featherweight Naseem Hamed didn't fight, who i would of loved to have seen him fight and thats Luisito Espinosa. Also a fight with Alejandro Gonzalez would of been entertaining aswell.

[Fenster]

Complete and utter laughable codswollop.

Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.

All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.

What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?

So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.

I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.

You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.

Yet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge

1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.

2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.

3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.

Junior Jones was past his prime when he fought Paul Ingle though Fenster, his legs were gone and he only just about got past Richard Evatt beforehand. Junior Jones in his prime the one that defeated MAB x2, Orlando Canizalez, John Michael Johnson, Jorge Eliecer Julio. Around that time he was special fighter, its only his chin that let him down and inconsistency.

As for Kennedy McKinney he was just as talented as Junior Jones, he seemed to go down hill pretty quickly i heard it was from drugs. Which is a shame considering how great he looked against Welcome Ncita, MAB, Paul Banke.

I tell you there is one Featherweight Naseem Hamed didn't fight, who i would of loved to have seen him fight and thats Luisito Espinosa. Also a fight with Alejandro Gonzalez would of been entertaining aswell.

Yeah yeah, you don't have to tell me he was past his best, I saw all those fights live.

Jones was KO'd by McKinney on the Naz-Kelley undercard. McKinney was done by Espinosa. Espinosa lost to Soto. Gonzalez lost to Medina.

All these guys LOST during Naz's pomp to his VICTIMS. So none can be called "elite" using VD's argument.

[generalbulldog]

I remember we had an old thread here on what the definition of "elite" was. My opinion of elite meant hall of famer. Nas in my opinion was in the class of guys like Meldrick Taylor, Junior Jones, Zab Judah, Fernando Vargas, Ricky Hatton. Guys that were p4p fighters but not of the truly elite class like an De La Hoya, Chavez, Mayweather, Pacquiao, MAB, and yes JMM.

[Fenster]

I remember we had an old thread here on what the definition of "elite" was. My opinion of elite meant hall of famer. Nas in my opinion was in the class of guys like Meldrick Taylor, Junior Jones, Zab Judah, Fernando Vargas, Ricky Hatton. Guys that were p4p fighters but not of the truly elite class like an De La Hoya, Chavez, Mayweather, Pacquiao, MAB, and yes JMM.

I basically agree with that.

Except ALL of those fighters were elite in their time. What seperates the second list is they are all-time greats.

[ICB]

Complete and utter laughable codswollop.

Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.

All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.

What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?

So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.

I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.

You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.

Yet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge

1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.

2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.

3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.

Junior Jones was past his prime when he fought Paul Ingle though Fenster, his legs were gone and he only just about got past Richard Evatt beforehand. Junior Jones in his prime the one that defeated MAB x2, Orlando Canizalez, John Michael Johnson, Jorge Eliecer Julio. Around that time he was special fighter, its only his chin that let him down and inconsistency.

As for Kennedy McKinney he was just as talented as Junior Jones, he seemed to go down hill pretty quickly i heard it was from drugs. Which is a shame considering how great he looked against Welcome Ncita, MAB, Paul Banke.

I tell you there is one Featherweight Naseem Hamed didn't fight, who i would of loved to have seen him fight and thats Luisito Espinosa. Also a fight with Alejandro Gonzalez would of been entertaining aswell.

Yeah yeah, you don't have to tell me he was past his best, I saw all those fights live.

Jones was KO'd by McKinney on the Naz-Kelley undercard. McKinney was done by Espinosa. Espinosa lost to Soto. Gonzalez lost to Medina.

All these guys LOST during Naz's pomp to his VICTIMS. So none can be called "elite" using VD's argument.

Well i don't know all the history considering i was young, but im pretty sure Luisito Espinosa vs Naseem Hamed could of happened at some point. Luisito Espinosa had a nice little run at Featherweight, destroying two highly regarded fighters in Kennedy McKinney, Alejando Gonzalez.

Also the two wins over Manuel Medina, Naseem Hamed chose to fight Manuel Medina rather than Luisito Espinosa.

I've seen quite a few Luisito Espinosa fights, and he was pretty good at one point. With a hell of a left hook, he would of been dangerous fight for Naseem Hamed.

Had the fight of taken place between 1995-1998.

Im not saying anyone avoided anyone, you asked an elite Featherweight Naseem Hamed could of fought. And he could of fought Luisito Espinosa between 1995-1998.

[Fenster]

Complete and utter laughable codswollop.

Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.

All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.

What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?

So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.

I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.

You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.

Yet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge

1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.

2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.

3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.

Junior Jones was past his prime when he fought Paul Ingle though Fenster, his legs were gone and he only just about got past Richard Evatt beforehand. Junior Jones in his prime the one that defeated MAB x2, Orlando Canizalez, John Michael Johnson, Jorge Eliecer Julio. Around that time he was special fighter, its only his chin that let him down and inconsistency.

As for Kennedy McKinney he was just as talented as Junior Jones, he seemed to go down hill pretty quickly i heard it was from drugs. Which is a shame considering how great he looked against Welcome Ncita, MAB, Paul Banke.

I tell you there is one Featherweight Naseem Hamed didn't fight, who i would of loved to have seen him fight and thats Luisito Espinosa. Also a fight with Alejandro Gonzalez would of been entertaining aswell.

Yeah yeah, you don't have to tell me he was past his best, I saw all those fights live.

Jones was KO'd by McKinney on the Naz-Kelley undercard. McKinney was done by Espinosa. Espinosa lost to Soto. Gonzalez lost to Medina.

All these guys LOST during Naz's pomp to his VICTIMS. So none can be called "elite" using VD's argument.

Well i don't know all the history considering i was young, but im pretty sure Luisito Espinosa vs Naseem Hamed could of happened at some point. Luisito Espinosa had a nice little run at Featherweight, destroying two highly regarded fighters in Kennedy McKinney, Alejando Gonzalez.

Also the two wins over Manuel Medina, Naseem Hamed chose to fight Manuel Medina rather than Luisito Espinosa.

I've seen quite a few Luisito Espinosa fights, and he was pretty good at one point. With a hell of a left hook, he would of been dangerous fight for Naseem Hamed.

Had the fight of taken place between 1995-1998.

Im not saying anyone avoided anyone, you asked an elite Featherweight Naseem Hamed could of fought. And he could of fought Luisito Espinosa between 1995-1998.

Espinosa could have got a fight with Naz if he hadn't lost his mandatory to Soto in 1999. Obviously Naz fought the winner. During 95 and 98 Naz beat Johnson, Kelley and Vazquez. Is Espinosa rated any higher than those fighters?

Naz would get no credit for beating Espinosa - using VD's argument.

[Violent Demise]

Complete and utter laughable codswollop.

Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.

All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.

What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?

So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.

I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.

You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.

Yet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge

1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.

2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.

3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.

Thank you very much. Damn your so predictable. So quick to try and trump me you trip yourself up. I listed Jones and Mckinney first cuz I knew you would run with them. Quick to call them unworthy of a fight with Hamed (they were) cuz of recent losses. And sure enough you posted exactly that. Yet at the same time look at what you listed. Medina had just lost to Luisito Espinosa and struggled to go the distance with a fighter who had 20 losses. Yet you passing Medina as being elite when Hamed fought him? You see that? Can't have shit both ways. Cesar Soto was shot when Hamed fought him. He got his title cuz he robbed it from Espinosa. I just watched the fight again and it was disgraceful. I suggest you watch it for the first time. After the debacle that was Hamed-Soto, Soto didn't win another fight for 6 years. Soto went 0-8-1 in that stretch. But according to you he was prime, elite and a great victory for Hamed. You really want me to keep going? I haven't even touched the monster that was Steve Robinson.

You can continue to make a fool of yourself by trying to counter this if you want. But lets bottom line it. No matter what stories, links or here say you got it don't change things. Bottom line is Naseem Hamed has no wins. Zero. Over any (pay attention now) ELITE FIGHTER WHO WAS IN HIS PRIME. Vazquez, Kelley and maybe Johnson were elite at one time. But not when Hamed fought them. All 3 beat Hamed in there primes. So what we got here is a life long career pattern of a man refusing to challenge himself against the true best. Yet you expect people to actually believe your delusional claims that Marquez actually ducked Hamed? Why are you doing this to yourself? A man who went up 2 weight classes to fight p4p God Floyd Mayweather and twice got in the ring against a chemically enhanced Manny Pacquiao would duck Hamed? Come on now. Hamed's former trainer Emmanuel Stewart has gone on record saying Hamed purposely avoided Marquez. Fellow Brit Jim Watt has also said Hamed avoided Marquez. Yet you continue your little fairytale. Sad. I would actually feel sorry for you if I wasn't busy laughing at you.

[generalbulldog]

I've just realized something. I was looking at the old Ring Magazine ratings when Hamed was fighting, meaning '90s era. Hamed never once beat a top 10 p4p fighter of his era.
And I'm talking about beating someone who was currently ranked, I'm not talking about someone that fell off the rankings. I could be wrong on this, if so point out to me who he beat that was top 10 p4p at that time.

Hamed was a very good and very exciting fighter, but in my opinion was never elite.

[Fenster]

I've just realized something. I was looking at the old Ring Magazine ratings when Hamed was fighting, meaning '90s era. Hamed never once beat a top 10 p4p fighter of his era.
And I'm talking about beating someone who was currently ranked, I'm not talking about someone that fell off the rankings. I could be wrong on this, if so point out to me who he beat that was top 10 p4p at that time.

Hamed was a very good and very exciting fighter, but in my opinion was never elite.

I believe Naz himself was the only P4P featherweight in the late 90s.

You can only meet P4P fighters if they are of similar size/weight to you. I think you will find plenty of fighters become "elite" without beating a fellow P4P incumbent - Hopkins, Lopez etc...

[generalbulldog]

I've just realized something. I was looking at the old Ring Magazine ratings when Hamed was fighting, meaning '90s era. Hamed never once beat a top 10 p4p fighter of his era.
And I'm talking about beating someone who was currently ranked, I'm not talking about someone that fell off the rankings. I could be wrong on this, if so point out to me who he beat that was top 10 p4p at that time.

Hamed was a very good and very exciting fighter, but in my opinion was never elite.

I believe Naz himself was the only P4P featherweight in the late 90s.

You can only meet P4P fighters if they are of similar size/weight to you. I think you will find plenty of fighters become "elite" without beating a fellow P4P incumbent - Hopkins, Lopez etc...

Good point on that, but when Nas dd meet someone who was p4p that was his own size, the outcome was a massive beat down by a guy jumping up in weight.

I've been pretty much tryng to stay out of his debate between you and VD, but I have to agree with him, that Nas never beat any one that was elite and when he did meet someone that was elite it was 1 sided.

I don't see him beating either JMM or Morales at 126.

[Fenster]

Complete and utter laughable codswollop.

Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.

All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.

What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?

So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.

I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.

You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.

Yet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge

1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.

2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.

3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.

Thank you very much. Damn your so predictable. So quick to try and trump me you trip yourself up. I listed Jones and Mckinney first cuz I knew you would run with them. Quick to call them unworthy of a fight with Hamed (they were) cuz of recent losses. And sure enough you posted exactly that. Yet at the same time look at what you listed. Medina had just lost to Luisito Espinosa and struggled to go the distance with a fighter who had 20 losses. Yet you passing Medina as being elite when Hamed fought him? You see that? Can't have shit both ways. Cesar Soto was shot when Hamed fought him. He got his title cuz he robbed it from Espinosa. I just watched the fight again and it was disgraceful. I suggest you watch it for the first time. After the debacle that was Hamed-Soto, Soto didn't win another fight for 6 years. Soto went 0-8-1 in that stretch. But according to you he was prime, elite and a great victory for Hamed. You really want me to keep going? I haven't even touched the monster that was Steve Robinson.

You can continue to make a fool of yourself by trying to counter this if you want. But lets bottom line it. No matter what stories, links or here say you got it don't change things. Bottom line is Naseem Hamed has no wins. Zero. Over any (pay attention now) ELITE FIGHTER WHO WAS IN HIS PRIME. Vazquez, Kelley and maybe Johnson were elite at one time. But not when Hamed fought them. All 3 beat Hamed in there primes. So what we got here is a life long career pattern of a man refusing to challenge himself against the true best. Yet you expect people to actually believe your delusional claims that Marquez actually ducked Hamed? Why are you doing this to yourself? A man who went up 2 weight classes to fight p4p God Floyd Mayweather and twice got in the ring against a chemically enhanced Manny Pacquiao would duck Hamed? Come on now. Hamed's former trainer Emmanuel Stewart has gone on record saying Hamed purposely avoided Marquez. Fellow Brit Jim Watt has also said Hamed avoided Marquez. Yet you continue your little fairytale. Sad. I would actually feel sorry for you if I wasn't busy laughing at you.

Your utter foolishness knows no bounds.

Laughing smileys aren't fooling anyone. You're now panicking so badly that you are claiming i've said things I clearly have not. You still haven't named an elite/prime featherweight Naz ducked and you produce zero evidence to back up your ill-informed opinions.

So here's another little quiz. I've made it easy for you. Yes or no answers. Ready?

1. I said a "world" title win and a top 10 Ring ranking qualifies you as an elite featherweight during Naz's reign. Medina was ranked in the top ten throughout the late 90s and also won a "world" title after Naz beat him. Is that a lie?

2. Soto was the WBC champion and held a top ten Ring ranking when Naz beat him. Is that a lie?

3. Marquez turned down a chance to fight Naz in 2000. Marquez himself said it. Beristain himself said it. Is that a lie?

And finally, i'll give you one more chance to redeem yourself, for the fifth/sixth time, now pay attention - name an ELITE FIGHTER WHO WAS IN HIS PRIME operating in the featherweight divison that Naz ducked?

[TitoFan]

Complete and utter laughable codswollop.

Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.

All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.

What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?

So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.

I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.

You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.

Yet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge

1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.

2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.

3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.

Thank you very much. Damn your so predictable. So quick to try and trump me you trip yourself up. I listed Jones and Mckinney first cuz I knew you would run with them. Quick to call them unworthy of a fight with Hamed (they were) cuz of recent losses. And sure enough you posted exactly that. Yet at the same time look at what you listed. Medina had just lost to Luisito Espinosa and struggled to go the distance with a fighter who had 20 losses. Yet you passing Medina as being elite when Hamed fought him? You see that? Can't have shit both ways. Cesar Soto was shot when Hamed fought him. He got his title cuz he robbed it from Espinosa. I just watched the fight again and it was disgraceful. I suggest you watch it for the first time. After the debacle that was Hamed-Soto, Soto didn't win another fight for 6 years. Soto went 0-8-1 in that stretch. But according to you he was prime, elite and a great victory for Hamed. You really want me to keep going? I haven't even touched the monster that was Steve Robinson.

You can continue to make a fool of yourself by trying to counter this if you want. But lets bottom line it. No matter what stories, links or here say you got it don't change things. Bottom line is Naseem Hamed has no wins. Zero. Over any (pay attention now) ELITE FIGHTER WHO WAS IN HIS PRIME. Vazquez, Kelley and maybe Johnson were elite at one time. But not when Hamed fought them. All 3 beat Hamed in there primes. So what we got here is a life long career pattern of a man refusing to challenge himself against the true best. Yet you expect people to actually believe your delusional claims that Marquez actually ducked Hamed? Why are you doing this to yourself? A man who went up 2 weight classes to fight p4p God Floyd Mayweather and twice got in the ring against a chemically enhanced Manny Pacquiao would duck Hamed? Come on now. Hamed's former trainer Emmanuel Stewart has gone on record saying Hamed purposely avoided Marquez. Fellow Brit Jim Watt has also said Hamed avoided Marquez. Yet you continue your little fairytale. Sad. I would actually feel sorry for you if I wasn't busy laughing at you.

This has been quite a spirited and long-running exchange. But there's something in this last post that cannot been ignored and has not been answered. The fact that Marquez DID go up two weight classes to challenge Mayweather IS pretty damning evidence that Marquez is not a "ducker". I remember thinking "what business does JMM have going up so much in weight to challenge the at least "part-consensus" p4p?" And truthfully, JMM's record is not one of ducking other fighters. Floyd, IMO, has ducked fighters to protect his record. But JMM? Doesn't fit. Was Naz so much more awesome than Floyd that JMM felt the need to duck him? Hardly. Barrera exposed Naz as nothing more than an entertaining clown when he fed him the ring post, something IMO Marquez would've gladly done also.

How about the reference about Emanuel Stewart? Why haven't you answered or disputed that one, Fenster? Surely a credible source such as Emanuel Stewart wouldn't just make that up. Well, maybe he would, but it's not his character to throw wild accusations like that. He seems fairly objective to me. But you totally ignored the reference VD made. Why?

IMO, you're an obsessed (and frustrated) ex-Naz fan who never got over how badly he was showed up by Barrera, and then faded away into oblivion. So now you feel the need to bad-mouth a great warrior like Juan Manuel Marquez in order to in some sick way uplift Naz's unfulfilled reputation. Maybe I'm wrong.

Personally, Barrera-Naz was and has always been one of my all-time personal favorite fights. Right up there with Pacquiao-DLH and Trinidad-Vargas.