Naz-vs-Marquez? The greatest duck in history? Fact.

[TitoFan]

Complete and utter laughable codswollop.

Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.

All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.

What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?

So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.

I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.

You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.

Yet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge

1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.

2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.

3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.

Thank you very much. Damn your so predictable. So quick to try and trump me you trip yourself up. I listed Jones and Mckinney first cuz I knew you would run with them. Quick to call them unworthy of a fight with Hamed (they were) cuz of recent losses. And sure enough you posted exactly that. Yet at the same time look at what you listed. Medina had just lost to Luisito Espinosa and struggled to go the distance with a fighter who had 20 losses. Yet you passing Medina as being elite when Hamed fought him? You see that? Can't have shit both ways. Cesar Soto was shot when Hamed fought him. He got his title cuz he robbed it from Espinosa. I just watched the fight again and it was disgraceful. I suggest you watch it for the first time. After the debacle that was Hamed-Soto, Soto didn't win another fight for 6 years. Soto went 0-8-1 in that stretch. But according to you he was prime, elite and a great victory for Hamed. You really want me to keep going? I haven't even touched the monster that was Steve Robinson.

You can continue to make a fool of yourself by trying to counter this if you want. But lets bottom line it. No matter what stories, links or here say you got it don't change things. Bottom line is Naseem Hamed has no wins. Zero. Over any (pay attention now) ELITE FIGHTER WHO WAS IN HIS PRIME. Vazquez, Kelley and maybe Johnson were elite at one time. But not when Hamed fought them. All 3 beat Hamed in there primes. So what we got here is a life long career pattern of a man refusing to challenge himself against the true best. Yet you expect people to actually believe your delusional claims that Marquez actually ducked Hamed? Why are you doing this to yourself? A man who went up 2 weight classes to fight p4p God Floyd Mayweather and twice got in the ring against a chemically enhanced Manny Pacquiao would duck Hamed? Come on now. Hamed's former trainer Emmanuel Stewart has gone on record saying Hamed purposely avoided Marquez. Fellow Brit Jim Watt has also said Hamed avoided Marquez. Yet you continue your little fairytale. Sad. I would actually feel sorry for you if I wasn't busy laughing at you.

This has been quite a spirited and long-running exchange. But there's something in this last post that cannot been ignored and has not been answered. The fact that Marquez DID go up two weight classes to challenge Mayweather IS pretty damning evidence that Marquez is not a "ducker". I remember thinking "what business does JMM have going up so much in weight to challenge the at least "part-consensus" p4p?" And truthfully, JMM's record is not one of ducking other fighters. Floyd, IMO, has ducked fighters to protect his record. But JMM? Doesn't fit. Was Naz so much more awesome than Floyd that JMM felt the need to duck him? Hardly. Barrera exposed Naz as nothing more than an entertaining clown when he fed him the ring post, something IMO Marquez would've gladly done also.

How about the reference about Emanuel Stewart? Why haven't you answered or disputed that one, Fenster? Surely a credible source such as Emanuel Stewart wouldn't just make that up. Well, maybe he would, but it's not his character to throw wild accusations like that. He seems fairly objective to me. But you totally ignored the reference VD made. Why?

IMO, you're an obsessed (and frustrated) ex-Naz fan who never got over how badly he was showed up by Barrera, and then faded away into oblivion. So now you feel the need to bad-mouth a great warrior like Juan Manuel Marquez in order to in some sick way uplift Naz's unfulfilled reputation. Maybe I'm wrong.

Personally, Barrera-Naz was and has always been one of my all-time personal favorite fights. Right up there with Pacquiao-DLH and Trinidad-Vargas.

[Fenster]

Complete and utter laughable codswollop.

Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.

All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.

What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?

So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.

I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.

You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.

Yet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge

1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.

2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.

3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.

Thank you very much. Damn your so predictable. So quick to try and trump me you trip yourself up. I listed Jones and Mckinney first cuz I knew you would run with them. Quick to call them unworthy of a fight with Hamed (they were) cuz of recent losses. And sure enough you posted exactly that. Yet at the same time look at what you listed. Medina had just lost to Luisito Espinosa and struggled to go the distance with a fighter who had 20 losses. Yet you passing Medina as being elite when Hamed fought him? You see that? Can't have shit both ways. Cesar Soto was shot when Hamed fought him. He got his title cuz he robbed it from Espinosa. I just watched the fight again and it was disgraceful. I suggest you watch it for the first time. After the debacle that was Hamed-Soto, Soto didn't win another fight for 6 years. Soto went 0-8-1 in that stretch. But according to you he was prime, elite and a great victory for Hamed. You really want me to keep going? I haven't even touched the monster that was Steve Robinson.

You can continue to make a fool of yourself by trying to counter this if you want. But lets bottom line it. No matter what stories, links or here say you got it don't change things. Bottom line is Naseem Hamed has no wins. Zero. Over any (pay attention now) ELITE FIGHTER WHO WAS IN HIS PRIME. Vazquez, Kelley and maybe Johnson were elite at one time. But not when Hamed fought them. All 3 beat Hamed in there primes. So what we got here is a life long career pattern of a man refusing to challenge himself against the true best. Yet you expect people to actually believe your delusional claims that Marquez actually ducked Hamed? Why are you doing this to yourself? A man who went up 2 weight classes to fight p4p God Floyd Mayweather and twice got in the ring against a chemically enhanced Manny Pacquiao would duck Hamed? Come on now. Hamed's former trainer Emmanuel Stewart has gone on record saying Hamed purposely avoided Marquez. Fellow Brit Jim Watt has also said Hamed avoided Marquez. Yet you continue your little fairytale. Sad. I would actually feel sorry for you if I wasn't busy laughing at you.

This has been quite a spirited and long-running exchange. But there's something in this last post that cannot been ignored and has not been answered. The fact that Marquez DID go up two weight classes to challenge Mayweather IS pretty damning evidence that Marquez is not a "ducker". I remember thinking "what business does JMM have going up so much in weight to challenge the at least "part-consensus" p4p?" And truthfully, JMM's record is not one of ducking other fighters. Floyd, IMO, has ducked fighters to protect his record. But JMM? Doesn't fit. Was Naz so much more awesome than Floyd that JMM felt the need to duck him? Hardly. Barrera exposed Naz as nothing more than an entertaining clown when he fed him the ring post, something IMO Marquez would've gladly done also.

How about the reference about Emanuel Stewart? Why haven't you answered or disputed that one, Fenster? Surely a credible source such as Emanuel Stewart wouldn't just make that up. Well, maybe he would, but it's not his character to throw wild accusations like that. He seems fairly objective to me. But you totally ignored the reference VD made. Why?

IMO, you're an obsessed (and frustrated) ex-Naz fan who never got over how badly he was showed up by Barrera, and then faded away into oblivion. So now you feel the need to bad-mouth a great warrior like Juan Manuel Marquez in order to in some sick way uplift Naz's unfulfilled reputation. Maybe I'm wrong.

Personally, Barrera-Naz was and has always been one of my all-time personal favorite fights. Right up there with Pacquiao-DLH and Trinidad-Vargas.

Calm down mate. It's just a fun debate.

Never once have I "bad-mouthed" Marquez. I have called him an all-time great many times on this thread. I haven't said the same about Naz once. The debate is about Marquez in Naz's era.

The Steward reference was ignored because there is no quote. Where is the evidence? VD has already lied, well got loads of things wrong, in this thread pertaining to events at the time. What about my quotes from Marquez himself, Berstain (that's his trainer/manager) and Antonio Curtis (former matchmaker)? Were they answered?

(For the record - certain commentators often repeat "Naz ducked Marquez" during Marquez fights )

I deal in fact not hearsay.

I too cheered for Barrera against the Naz fella.

[TitoFan]

Complete and utter laughable codswollop.

Was Ali a world champion or rated top ten by the Ring when Berbick beat him? Pathetic comparision. Fact.

All of those fighters listed, whatever your ill-informed opinion of them, were ELITE featherweights (regarded amongst the worlds best) when Naz beat them. Not ONE retired after losing to Naz, some going on to win further titles. Fact.

What more can a fighter do than wipe-out all the most decorated fighters in his particular division?

So, here we are again, for the 4th time, tell me an elite featherweight Naz ducked in his time? Because if you can't name one your arguement is totally invalid. Fact.

I now understand the problem. You don't know the meaning of the word elite. That's become obvious. You think just cuz a fighter held a title than he was elite. So I'm thinking you must of considered Gavin Rees an elite fighter when he was holding his strap, right? It don't work that way. My opinion is my opinion. But assuming people know the true meaning of the word elite it's pretty much universally known that Paul Ingle, Steve Robinson, Cesar Soto and to a point Manuel Medina were never elite fighters even in there primes. That's a fact. The others were elite at one point in there careers. But they were all pretty much shot fighters when Hamed fought them. Tell me what other championship did Tom Johnson win after Hamed? Kevin Kelley. What title he pick up. None to both. As well as to Wilfredo Vazquez and Vuyani Bungu. So what were these other championships these guys won after Hamed that you lied about? There isn't any. None of them did nothing that meant anything after Hamed. Cuz they were all shot fighters when they fought Hamed. Fact.

You don't think I see through you? Your using word Featherweight as a security blanket. Not no more. I'm tearing it up. Junior Jones, Kennedy Mckinney, Erik Morales, Juan Manuel Marquez, Floyd Mayweather, Angel Manfredy were elite fighters (Manfredy being the exception) that expressed interest in facing Hamed. Fact. How many of those did he fight? None. Fact. He ducked one after the other. Another fact. They all didn't all share the same weight class as him. But neither did Bungu. And they still fought. But not against the others. Hamed's ducking skills truly were elite.

Yet again an utterly shocking lack of knowledge

1. Junior Jones and Kennedy Mckinney were elite fighters? They lost to Naz victims (Jones to Ingle and McKinney to Bungu). What makes them any better than the other champions Naz smashed? It is also a FACT that Jones ducked out of the March 11 2000 date that Bungu took (BBC News | SPORT | Hamed fight called off). We've already established Marquez ducked Naz. Morales lost out to Barrera. Mayweather, Manfredy, Gatti - just about every fighter in the late 90s was linked with Naz because of the MONEY!!! All were operating at bigger weights. There's no evidence that Naz ducked anyone. You are tearing up nothing. Fact.

2. I said SOME went on to win titles (Medina and Ingle). Kelley was deemed good enough to fight both Morales and Barrera after Naz sparked him. I never lie. Fact.

3. You're the one that has the problem understaning the word elite. Did I call anyone anything other than elite in their weight-class? That's a no. Fact.

Thank you very much. Damn your so predictable. So quick to try and trump me you trip yourself up. I listed Jones and Mckinney first cuz I knew you would run with them. Quick to call them unworthy of a fight with Hamed (they were) cuz of recent losses. And sure enough you posted exactly that. Yet at the same time look at what you listed. Medina had just lost to Luisito Espinosa and struggled to go the distance with a fighter who had 20 losses. Yet you passing Medina as being elite when Hamed fought him? You see that? Can't have shit both ways. Cesar Soto was shot when Hamed fought him. He got his title cuz he robbed it from Espinosa. I just watched the fight again and it was disgraceful. I suggest you watch it for the first time. After the debacle that was Hamed-Soto, Soto didn't win another fight for 6 years. Soto went 0-8-1 in that stretch. But according to you he was prime, elite and a great victory for Hamed. You really want me to keep going? I haven't even touched the monster that was Steve Robinson.

You can continue to make a fool of yourself by trying to counter this if you want. But lets bottom line it. No matter what stories, links or here say you got it don't change things. Bottom line is Naseem Hamed has no wins. Zero. Over any (pay attention now) ELITE FIGHTER WHO WAS IN HIS PRIME. Vazquez, Kelley and maybe Johnson were elite at one time. But not when Hamed fought them. All 3 beat Hamed in there primes. So what we got here is a life long career pattern of a man refusing to challenge himself against the true best. Yet you expect people to actually believe your delusional claims that Marquez actually ducked Hamed? Why are you doing this to yourself? A man who went up 2 weight classes to fight p4p God Floyd Mayweather and twice got in the ring against a chemically enhanced Manny Pacquiao would duck Hamed? Come on now. Hamed's former trainer Emmanuel Stewart has gone on record saying Hamed purposely avoided Marquez. Fellow Brit Jim Watt has also said Hamed avoided Marquez. Yet you continue your little fairytale. Sad. I would actually feel sorry for you if I wasn't busy laughing at you.

This has been quite a spirited and long-running exchange. But there's something in this last post that cannot been ignored and has not been answered. The fact that Marquez DID go up two weight classes to challenge Mayweather IS pretty damning evidence that Marquez is not a "ducker". I remember thinking "what business does JMM have going up so much in weight to challenge the at least "part-consensus" p4p?" And truthfully, JMM's record is not one of ducking other fighters. Floyd, IMO, has ducked fighters to protect his record. But JMM? Doesn't fit. Was Naz so much more awesome than Floyd that JMM felt the need to duck him? Hardly. Barrera exposed Naz as nothing more than an entertaining clown when he fed him the ring post, something IMO Marquez would've gladly done also.

How about the reference about Emanuel Stewart? Why haven't you answered or disputed that one, Fenster? Surely a credible source such as Emanuel Stewart wouldn't just make that up. Well, maybe he would, but it's not his character to throw wild accusations like that. He seems fairly objective to me. But you totally ignored the reference VD made. Why?

IMO, you're an obsessed (and frustrated) ex-Naz fan who never got over how badly he was showed up by Barrera, and then faded away into oblivion. So now you feel the need to bad-mouth a great warrior like Juan Manuel Marquez in order to in some sick way uplift Naz's unfulfilled reputation. Maybe I'm wrong.

Personally, Barrera-Naz was and has always been one of my all-time personal favorite fights. Right up there with Pacquiao-DLH and Trinidad-Vargas.

Calm down mate. It's just a fun debate.

Never once have I "bad-mouthed" Marquez. I have called him an all-time great many times on this thread. I haven't said the same about Naz once. The debate is about Marquez in Naz's era.

The Steward reference was ignored because there is no quote. Where is the evidence? VD has already lied, well got loads of things wrong, in this thread pertaining to events at the time. What about my quotes from Marquez himself, Berstain (that's his trainer/manager) and Antonio Curtis (former matchmaker)? Were they answered?

(For the record - certain commentators often repeat "Naz ducked Marquez" during Marquez fights )

I deal in fact not hearsay.

I too cheered for Barrera against the Naz fella.

Ok..... carry on, then.