How Far Away Is Froch From Being a Pound 4 Pounder?

[ICB]

I suppose p4p is subjective. You can go on resume, or you can go on actual performances, or a mixture of both.

I just have a hard time believing a guy who holds wins over Dirrell, Taylor, Pascal and if he beat him, Abraham, doesn't even register with most people as being anywhere near worthy. I can understand if you are judging purely on talent alone, because being honest, he is nowhere near. But talent alone doesn't win you fights and it doesn't necessarily make you a good fighter.

I hear the calls for him cleaning out Super-Middleweight, but Super-middleweight is absolutely stacked with talent, and by the time he got round to fighting everyone, he'd be about 37.

It's just a shame really, because guys like Hatton cleaned up a pretty weak 140 and that earns him respect, wheras it will be very tough for any fighter at 168 to clean up, as the range of talent means that it's quite likely that somebody has the style to beat you.

As for him losing around 30 rounds in hist last half dozen fights, i think you have to take into consideration his style. Guys like Ward are slick, so they won't give too many rounds away. Froch goes to war, and leaves himself open. He'll lose rounds, but that shouldn't take away from his victories.

The reason i even brought this was up was basically because i was looking at the p4p rankings, and Marquez and Mosley are both in the top 5, despite Mosley losing to Cotto, looking awful against Mayorga and losing soundly to MAyweather. Marquez is in the top 3, despite many people on here believing he's struggled greatly with Casamayor and Diaz, and of course he was easily beaten by Mayweather.

Then i look at Sergio Martinez who is number 7, and he's only really gone 1-1-1 against Williams, Pavlik and CIntron. IS that any better than Froch going 3-1 against Taylor, Pascal, Dirrell and Kessler (two of those in his opponents backyard)? I mean, even Williams has question marks hanging over him...

So that begs the question, how do people on here form their p4p lists? What criteria do you all use? Do you all list a few bankers (Mayweather, Pacquiao, JMM, Mosley etc) and then add a few of the champions from the lower weights, after checking them out on Boxrec - of course pretending you've watched them fight more than twice?

I'm genuinley interested. For me, the p4p top ten is full with dark clouds and question marks. It needs shaking up. I can't help but feel a few fighters are holding down spots based on their past reputations, and maybe because there are no obvious front runners to take over the mantle.

When all that is said and done, if he beats Abraham, for me Froch is pushing 10th. He has to be...

For sure the p4p top ten at the moment looks pretty weak on a whole if you lookat past lists, but Froch got beat by Kessler who is nowhere near top 10 right now and the Dirrell win was a dodgy one in most peoples eyes.

The weird thing is, my gut instinct was Dirrell beat Froch, albeit barely. I actually had Froch beating Kessler by 1 round iirc.

His win over Pascal does look very good after what happened this weekend. Imo anyway. I just find it odd that Martinez makes a lot of people's list despite only winning 1 of 3 against Pavlik, Williams and Cintron. Froch goes 3-1 against Taylor, Dirrell, Pascal and Kessler and he isn't even on anyone's radar, even if he managed to beat Abraham, it seems only me and you would have him remotely close to cracking the top ten.

Jean Pascal is a better fighter now, than when he fought Carl Froch. And your using Jean Pascal's achievements now with hindsight, to further your argument about Carl Froch's ranking now.

When at the time Jean Pascal fought Carl Froch, he was only considered a decent fighter. Who recently got rocked by a nobody in Omar Pittman and was avoiding Edison Miranda.

I mean thats like using the Vic Darchinyan argument to further Nonito Donaire's ranking, and your the one that is against that.

So i don't really see no differences, yes Nonito's Donaire's ranking is well overrated but still its the samething.

I think you've confused me with Bilbo. I've genuinley only ever seen Donaire fight once, and that was against Darchinyan. I've never really made any objection to him being ranked in the top ten, or at least i don't think i have. I honestly don't know enough about him to make a decision either way.

But now you've brought it up, why can't hindsight be used? The truth is, it's impossible to tell just how much Pascal has improved. He was never tested to that extreme before he fought Froch. Since the Froch fight he's beaten Branco, who is and always has been fairly average. He beat Diaconu, who to be fair had only really beat Rico Hoye. Then he beat Dawson, and you seem sure that Dawson would win a rematch, which tells me you believe Dawson loss was Dawson's fault.

Don't get me wrong, it's false to say Pascal hasn't improved, but i don't think he's improved to a clear enough extent to where you could just shrug off Froch's win over him by saying 'Yeah but Pascal would beat him in a rematch'

That does Froch a dis-service in my opinion. Pascal had the tools to beat him, but chose to fight with him. Froch would be going into the fight knowing he can beat him. I don't see rematch being much different. It would be fun, but i'd be surprised if Pascal beat him.

Im not discrediting Carl Froch's win over Jean Pascal, i was the one at the time who praised Carl Froch for a very good action fight.

All im saying is that at the time Jean Pascal was green, i mean do you remember what people were saying about Jean Pascal ?

He was the fighter that was scared of Edison Miranda, and was exposed against Omar Pittman.

I just think its plain as day to see Jean Pascal has improved, Adrian Diaconu was considered a good fighter when Jean Pascal beat him. Infact many thought Adrian Diaconu would win and he was expected to be future opponent for Chad Dawson.

As for Chad Dawson vs Jean Pascal, yes i think Chad Dawson is technically better than Jean Pascal. But that still doesn't mean Jean Pascal hasn't improved. Because i rate Chad Dawson quite highly at his best.

I just thought he was lackluster and when he decided to fight, he was having success but he kept holding back and clinching. Don't ask me why but i feel Chad Dawson will have more fire in his belly in a rematch, and he will stop Jean Pascal IMO.