James Toney v Randy Couture

[Hulk]

...yeah generalbulldog, IMO the UFC is on easy street right now but the newer guys aren't going to want to get chump change (when compared to even average boxers...hell Alexander Povetkin was looking at making $2.5 million vs Wladimir) in their big time fights...they will eventually go Union (which Boxing not having 1 central Association cannot do but it's not like they need to because THEY make the contracts and sign them).

Coouture vs Toney to me was only going to be "exciting" or "special" if #1 Toney submitted Randy #2 If Randy KO'd Toney or #3 if the fight was close and went the distance.

I know that not all MMA fans are like this, but I think they really have an inferiority complex. Yes there are a ton of ignorant boxing fans but there are people who like MMA and especially UFC right now STRICTLY because "it's the hot new thing"....Spike TV has made it all edgy, Energy Drinks and everything "X-treme" sponsors it, and obviously Dana White (a guy who basically got the doors shut on him in the boxing World) has shown he can market to middle class angry white kids ages 16-30 and perhaps kind of like boxing (and this is important) the fighters can make the sport seem #1 Very Easy and #2 Devoid of actual skill......and when I say "Devoid of actual skill" I mean fighters can make it SEEM like they just go out there and swing wild punches or just rely 100% on brute strength or quickness...it's just the way the minds of those middle class angry white kids work, look at Charlie Zelenoff...sure he's the extreme case of this type of mentality but there are plenty of cats out there just like him that think they can just up and hop in a ring (or octogon) and be somebody. All pro athletes train these days (some a lot more than others) and the guys who are really dedicated to honing their craft can make their sport seem effortless, look at what Michael Jordan did...hell he pretty much damn near ruined basketball because everyone was trying to be "Like Mike" and make all the big time fancy highlite reel plays but they didn't know how hard he worked on the basics to make himself that great...look at Roy Jones Jr. and Ali and Mike Tyson....loads of people say those guys (more so than fighters like Rocky or Joe Frazier) were "Naturally Gifted" and I think that discredits the hard work they put in to becoming as great as they were.

Comparing Boxing to MMA is like comparing Tennis to Badminton....yes they are similar but there are gigantic differences at the same time.

As for the Kimbo-Ray Mercer MMA fight....let's see them box, I wonder how fast Kimbo would have him out of there then.

Well said Lyle. Honestly as we've discussed I can't stand most of the MMA fans that wear "Tapout" and drive Daddy's truck or car and think they are tough.

I like MMA and I'm an MMA fan myself, but I'm a boxing fan first.

Last night was a pathetic display by Toney. A non effort. Didn't even try for a KO punch when Randy shot in. Just fell over like a fat hippo.

Hell I say lets have Mercer and Kimbo have a rematch now and see who wins.

Gurantee Mercer would kill him now after training in MMA.

[Hunter]

My opinion is MMA fighters are better pure fighters....If you were in a bar room brawl no holds barred, an MMA fighter is going to win most of the time. That being said I prefer to watch boxing.

[El Kabong]

Well said Lyle. Honestly as we've discussed I can't stand most of the MMA fans that wear "Tapout" and drive Daddy's truck or car and think they are tough.

I like MMA and I'm an MMA fan myself, but I'm a boxing fan first.

Last night was a pathetic display by Toney. A non effort. Didn't even try for a KO punch when Randy shot in. Just fell over like a fat hippo.

Hell I say lets have Mercer and Kimbo have a rematch now and see who wins.

Gurantee Mercer would kill him now after training in MMA.

Oh I agree 100% those Tapout bastards irritate the piss out of me....those guys are "those mma fans" the guys that talk tons of shit, know fuck all about any type of fighting at all.....they are an embarassment to human beings.

I am not an "MMA fan" but I can tolerate it better these days...I usually just critique the striking abilities of those guys. Some throw pretty well, they are usually the guys that don't defend against strikes all that great or avoid them, and so you can see where a boxer in theory could wipe the floor with them, but hell just adding in wrestling and kickboxing tactics to boxing would screw the boxer's gameplan up.

The main thing I hate about MMA is the outspoken ignorant fanbase, yes boxing has our fair share of shitheads, but MMA has a "culture" now, boxing doesn't have 1 culture, it hasn't been marketed as a stereotype and MMA has and it's that stereotype that I just cannot and will not put up with.

I didn't see the fight, I didn't plan to watch the fight, I figured JT had the wrong style for MMA and Randy was definently the wrong match for him...I think a Toney-Rampage Jackson or Shane Carwin fight would have been more interesting, but even then James Toney has had over 80 pro fights, he's washed up, he's old, he's finished and that was well before this MMA charade. Sure some little keyboard warriors for MMA will try and say something like this fight is proof that boxers can't cut it in MMA and that MMA is a better sport but as rational fans of SPORT (in general) will see is that in "Mixed Martial Arts" there are several ways to win and several ways to lose and if you train specifically in 1 area following all their rules and regulations you will be at a disadvantage in MMA because you have to "un-learn" habits that are specifically taught in other martial arts...All martial arts have their pros and cons...James Toney just demostrated the weakness of boxing vs wrestling, but on the other hand Ray Mercer demostrated the strength of boxing vs whatever the hell Tim Sylvia does/did. This whole MMA vs Boxing is not a zero sum game, there is not a clear winner or a clear loser as both sports are going nowhere, there will ALWAYS be boxing and there will always be other forms of martial art.

[El Kabong]

My opinion is MMA fighters are better pure fighters....If you were in a bar room brawl no holds barred, an MMA fighter is going to win most of the time. That being said I prefer to watch boxing.

...I'll take my chances throwing my fists, but to each their own

[generalbulldog]

My opinion is MMA fighters are better pure fighters....If you were in a bar room brawl no holds barred, an MMA fighter is going to win most of the time. That being said I prefer to watch boxing.

...I'll take my chances throwing my fists, but to each their own

This boxer did pretty well defending himself against 4-5 guys attacking him.

[luvfightgame]

Dont but the Toney intimidates for a minute,just cant. Big bad paunchy Toney waddling up to White and company, all inaudible and spitting while he talks,laying down terms and twisting arms, Nah. He puts his persona out there and commands interviews but has equally had it fall flat,especially when its clear he cant even compete at the top in his chosen field the last few years. White deals with much more in depth competitors in his own house,Ufc and they know the business that is mma. Toney didn't bully a thing without White seeing an opportunity to make bank on a high profile 'known' big mouth personality...and one billed as a boxing 'heavyweight champion'.

I'm not one to disparage mma as a sport but to talk on UFC as if its without flaws and potential pitfalls amongst the ranks is waaaay to premature. White came in and gave it uniformity and collected companies and competition to give it one huge recognizable face. Hey....hats off. Boxing is its own worse enemy in spots no doubt and at times its like being in a one sided mentally abusive relationship with a over bearing female. But It is way to soon to lump it with a NFL or NBA who had both morphed over decades to become what we know today. UFC will grow and in doing so will conjure other franchises and opportunity's for its athletes...cant rule from the mount forever. Trust me it has plenty of time to see inconsistency and suffer the same black eyes and self inflicted wounds boxing has. How long has UFC existed...7,8 years ? Gotta add the difference with Toney/Couture and Hopkins/Jones 2...........B hop and Jones had a few boxing matches under the belt.

By bullying I don't mean Dana signed him purely because he was scared, but he gave in and even admitted immediately afterward that he doesn't know why he signed him. He publicly said numerous times he wouldn't participate in a "freak show", then admitted that this was one. Obviously it made money, drummed up attention, but James was the driving force, Dana was a co conspirator, not the mastermind.

I think James is who was demanding to be called "Heavyweight Champ". He was demanding to fight mma's heavyweight champ as boxings heavyweight champ. Boxing is who gave James the title he was bragging on. Which one was it again? How many heavyweight champs are there right now?

UFC certainly has flaws. It is however, a brand, and has created a culture. Boxing has no face, no brand, no culture, no organization, and tons of belts. It is structured in a manner that it can never become a brand. UFC is bigger than the fighters and goes on with or without the current fighters. They have become a brand. Like kleenex, xerox, and the other major sports organizations, it is synanamous with the sport itself. At this stage it is impossible for boxing to EVER get to that point. Therefore boxing will be stagnate and will live and die with it's current great fighters. The stumblings that UFC will experience will still never lead it to the same state as boxing now.

[luvfightgame]

Well said Lyle. Honestly as we've discussed I can't stand most of the MMA fans that wear "Tapout" and drive Daddy's truck or car and think they are tough.

I like MMA and I'm an MMA fan myself, but I'm a boxing fan first.

Last night was a pathetic display by Toney. A non effort. Didn't even try for a KO punch when Randy shot in. Just fell over like a fat hippo.

Hell I say lets have Mercer and Kimbo have a rematch now and see who wins.

Gurantee Mercer would kill him now after training in MMA.

Oh I agree 100% those Tapout bastards irritate the piss out of me....those guys are "those mma fans" the guys that talk tons of shit, know fuck all about any type of fighting at all.....they are an embarassment to human beings.

I am not an "MMA fan" but I can tolerate it better these days...I usually just critique the striking abilities of those guys. Some throw pretty well, they are usually the guys that don't defend against strikes all that great or avoid them, and so you can see where a boxer in theory could wipe the floor with them, but hell just adding in wrestling and kickboxing tactics to boxing would screw the boxer's gameplan up.

The main thing I hate about MMA is the outspoken ignorant fanbase, yes boxing has our fair share of shitheads, but MMA has a "culture" now, boxing doesn't have 1 culture, it hasn't been marketed as a stereotype and MMA has and it's that stereotype that I just cannot and will not put up with.

I didn't see the fight, I didn't plan to watch the fight, I figured JT had the wrong style for MMA and Randy was definently the wrong match for him...I think a Toney-Rampage Jackson or Shane Carwin fight would have been more interesting, but even then James Toney has had over 80 pro fights, he's washed up, he's old, he's finished and that was well before this MMA charade. Sure some little keyboard warriors for MMA will try and say something like this fight is proof that boxers can't cut it in MMA and that MMA is a better sport but as rational fans of SPORT (in general) will see is that in "Mixed Martial Arts" there are several ways to win and several ways to lose and if you train specifically in 1 area following all their rules and regulations you will be at a disadvantage in MMA because you have to "un-learn" habits that are specifically taught in other martial arts...All martial arts have their pros and cons...James Toney just demostrated the weakness of boxing vs wrestling, but on the other hand Ray Mercer demostrated the strength of boxing vs whatever the hell Tim Sylvia does/did. This whole MMA vs Boxing is not a zero sum game, there is not a clear winner or a clear loser as both sports are going nowhere, there will ALWAYS be boxing and there will always be other forms of martial art.

As you stated, the sports are different and mastering one does not mean you will do really well at another. In general, wrestling has proven to be the most consistently useful discipline ever since mma started. Boxing is an accessory to the wrestler, and without it, they rarely go very far. Pure strikers rarely do well, and if you put a pure striker against a pure wrestler, the fight will go the distance and the wrestler will win a decision. It's just about control, and a wrestler will control the fight.

The mma vs boxing as a sport is truly a waste of time argument. BUT.... which one is growing and which one isn't is a no brainer. MMA has created a culture and it is organized for growth. Boxing can't and won't. It will never go away, but it will never become a culture or brand. Can you imagine people wearing around WBC tshirts, WBA, IBF, WBO? Where can you go buy a tshirt with your favorite boxer on it? What store carries a boxing brand other than generic everlast equipment or sports gear that they carry for any sport? Hate on Tapout all you want, but they've done an amazing thing. Tapout has done more for mma than every boxing promoter combined has done for boxing. I live near their headquarters, i've got tapout stuff and I wear it because I genuinely like it. The warehouse has a couple of annual sales where they bring in fighters for autographs and sell everything really cheap. The lines are 12 hours deep. It's unreal. I've seen it, been there, done that. You can hate it all you want, and some of "those fans" are real jackasses, but it's a small percentage and the people in line are are young and you see whole families. They sell posters, tshirts, hats, shoes, stickers, pants, bags, watches, who the fuck knows what else. It's amazing.

Boxing has nothing to be worried about. They aren't even in the same category. Pro wrestling is who's taking a beating from UFC. Boxing was never in this fight....EVER.... Boxing has never been organized and never will be. Let me know when you can walk into the mall and buy a shirt with your favorite boxer's name on it, and choose from several of your favorites. Not gonna happen. UFC is stealing WWE's lunch money, boxing never had any to steal.

[generalbulldog]

I think this whole MMA thing is growing worldwide is really exaggerated. Where is it growing? The North American continent specifically countries like America and Canada? How popular is it in Latin American countries besides Brazil? And is it really more popular than boxing in like say Western Europe? From what I gather from the posters here and places like Boxingscene it isn't.

Hell even in Japan the land where they love their combat sports and where Pride once existed it's not even the number 1 combat sport, it's still Sumo wrestling followed by boxing. Don't believe me? The Kameda-Naito WBC flyweight championship in '09 average a 43.1% rating in Japan and peaking at 52%. The most watched combat sporting event since 1963 in that country according to 1 poster in the comment section. Naito-Kameda fight does ridiculous TV ratings in Japan - Bad Left Hook

How about other Asian countries like Thailand or the Phillipines? Or how about China since a few of their boxers won gold at the '08 olympics and the Duvas are training some of their fighters to turn pro? It's kind of funny for a martial art organization like the UFC it doesn't attract the same zealous fans worldwide that it does in the US.

Again MMA is growing indeed but not worldwide like Dana and it's UFC fans are saying and only in a few select countries like the US and Canada for example. You can forget about MMA having a significant impact in Latin American countries like Mexico or Puerto Rico or Argentina and many Latin American countries since boxing is the main combat sport there, with the exception of probably Brazil.

BTW I would love to see the real numbers on their PPV buys since Dana really doesn't release them like HBO is mandated to do since HBO is a public company, for I think the UFC numbers are really fudge up like the so called 1.5 million buys here or the 2.0 million buys there.

[rjj tszyu]

I think this whole MMA thing is growing worldwide is really exaggerated. Where is it growing? The North American continent specifically countries like America and Canada? How popular is it in Latin American countries besides Brazil? And is it really more popular than boxing in like say Western Europe? From what I gather from the posters here and places like Boxingscene it isn't.

Hell even in Japan the land where they love their combat sports and where Pride once existed it's not even the number 1 combat sport, it's still Sumo wrestling followed by boxing. Don't believe me? The Kameda-Naito WBC flyweight championship in '09 average a 43.1% rating in Japan and peaking at 52%. The most watched combat sporting event since 1963 in that country according to 1 poster in the comment section. Naito-Kameda fight does ridiculous TV ratings in Japan - Bad Left Hook

How about other Asian countries like Thailand or the Phillipines? Or how about China since a few of their boxers won gold at the '08 olympics and the Duvas are training some of their fighters to turn pro? It's kind of funny for a martial art organization like the UFC it doesn't attract the same zealous fans worldwide that it does in the US.

Again MMA is growing indeed but not worldwide like Dana and it's UFC fans are saying and only in a few select countries like the US and Canada for example. You can forget about MMA having a significant impact in Latin American countries like Mexico or Puerto Rico or Argentina and many Latin American countries since boxing is the main combat sport there, with the exception of probably Brazil.

BTW I would love to see the real numbers on their PPV buys since Dana really doesn't release them like HBO is mandated to do since HBO is a public company, for I think the UFC numbers are really fudge up like the so called 1.5 million buys here or the 2.0 million buys there.

Good post here.

I remember when Mayweather fought Marquez and that prick Dana White was slagging boxing off saying it wasn't giving people the fight they wanted to see. Well maybe it wasn't but I know one thing he was very quiet after HBO announced it's PPV numbers because it kicked UFC 103's backside.

Boxing is still the combat sport most of the world want to see and worldwide it is once again the second most watched sport falling second only to football (soccer). If somehow over the next 12 months CERTAIN fights everyone wants to see are made, we will see just how much more popular boxing is.

[Gandalf]

I think this whole MMA thing is growing worldwide is really exaggerated. Where is it growing? The North American continent specifically countries like America and Canada? How popular is it in Latin American countries besides Brazil? And is it really more popular than boxing in like say Western Europe? From what I gather from the posters here and places like Boxingscene it isn't.

Hell even in Japan the land where they love their combat sports and where Pride once existed it's not even the number 1 combat sport, it's still Sumo wrestling followed by boxing. Don't believe me? The Kameda-Naito WBC flyweight championship in '09 average a 43.1% rating in Japan and peaking at 52%. The most watched combat sporting event since 1963 in that country according to 1 poster in the comment section. Naito-Kameda fight does ridiculous TV ratings in Japan - Bad Left Hook

How about other Asian countries like Thailand or the Phillipines? Or how about China since a few of their boxers won gold at the '08 olympics and the Duvas are training some of their fighters to turn pro? It's kind of funny for a martial art organization like the UFC it doesn't attract the same zealous fans worldwide that it does in the US.

Again MMA is growing indeed but not worldwide like Dana and it's UFC fans are saying and only in a few select countries like the US and Canada for example. You can forget about MMA having a significant impact in Latin American countries like Mexico or Puerto Rico or Argentina and many Latin American countries since boxing is the main combat sport there, with the exception of probably Brazil.

BTW I would love to see the real numbers on their PPV buys since Dana really doesn't release them like HBO is mandated to do since HBO is a public company, for I think the UFC numbers are really fudge up like the so called 1.5 million buys here or the 2.0 million buys there.

They used to show PPV boxing regularly for free out here, but that has stopped and hasn't been around for ages. Maybe as far back as Pac/Cotto. And yet there was UFC and James Toney live on my TV this last weekend. Of course, I had to watch the freak show, but only that one bout mind. I can only speak for here, but it seems that K1 and MMA is getting far more commercial coverage and boxing barely exists anymore. I can't speak for other Asian regions, but that's how it now is here. It sucks, I hate this MMA stuff.

[GAME]

My opinion is MMA fighters are better pure fighters....If you were in a bar room brawl no holds barred, an MMA fighter is going to win most of the time. That being said I prefer to watch boxing.

...I'll take my chances throwing my fists, but to each their own

This boxer did pretty well defending himself against 4-5 guys attacking him.

Good point. MMA guys seem to think that they have an advantage if it was a street fight but if there was a group attack a boxer can fend off many guys with his fists. An MMA fighter would be busy humping one guy whilst the others beat the crap outta him.

[rjj tszyu]

I think this whole MMA thing is growing worldwide is really exaggerated. Where is it growing? The North American continent specifically countries like America and Canada? How popular is it in Latin American countries besides Brazil? And is it really more popular than boxing in like say Western Europe? From what I gather from the posters here and places like Boxingscene it isn't.

Hell even in Japan the land where they love their combat sports and where Pride once existed it's not even the number 1 combat sport, it's still Sumo wrestling followed by boxing. Don't believe me? The Kameda-Naito WBC flyweight championship in '09 average a 43.1% rating in Japan and peaking at 52%. The most watched combat sporting event since 1963 in that country according to 1 poster in the comment section. Naito-Kameda fight does ridiculous TV ratings in Japan - Bad Left Hook

How about other Asian countries like Thailand or the Phillipines? Or how about China since a few of their boxers won gold at the '08 olympics and the Duvas are training some of their fighters to turn pro? It's kind of funny for a martial art organization like the UFC it doesn't attract the same zealous fans worldwide that it does in the US.

Again MMA is growing indeed but not worldwide like Dana and it's UFC fans are saying and only in a few select countries like the US and Canada for example. You can forget about MMA having a significant impact in Latin American countries like Mexico or Puerto Rico or Argentina and many Latin American countries since boxing is the main combat sport there, with the exception of probably Brazil.

BTW I would love to see the real numbers on their PPV buys since Dana really doesn't release them like HBO is mandated to do since HBO is a public company, for I think the UFC numbers are really fudge up like the so called 1.5 million buys here or the 2.0 million buys there.

They used to show PPV boxing regularly for free out here, but that has stopped and hasn't been around for ages. Maybe as far back as Pac/Cotto. And yet there was UFC and James Toney live on my TV this last weekend. Of course, I had to watch the freak show, but only that one bout mind. I can only speak for here, but it seems that K1 and MMA is getting far more commercial coverage and boxing barely exists anymore. I can't speak for other Asian regions, but that's how it now is here. It sucks, I hate this MMA stuff.

Was Marquez-Diaz not an HBO PPV fight? To be fair Sky do give us quite a lot of big PPV fights from the U.S. but it has to involve at least one real big name. I was quite shocked that they didn't show Cotto's last fight but then again they showed us that debacle between Cintron and Williams. I'm sure that fight can't have helped things as far as Sky paying to show big fights over here.

[El Kabong]

UFC certainly has flaws. It is however, a brand, and has created a culture. Boxing has no face, no brand, no culture, no organization, and tons of belts.

By being a brand the UFC has shrunk the size of their tent...being a brand says to the fans "Wear these clothes, drink this energy drink, act like this, etc".....I think it's good that boxing is still more nebulous, as a fan you aren't force fed anything by any organization and it allows for the individual personalities of boxing to remain individual personalities and I think that's a very positive thing. Boxing also doesn't have 1 guy running the show unlike UFC where Dana White is a lightening rod for controversy and he has made some very public very idiotic rants ie "I'll destroy the internet"

So being an organization does have it's draw backs....I mean how long before the UFC fighters go Union? How long before lock outs or collective bargaining? Boxing doesn't have those issues.

[piye]

UFC and Boxing Do not compare on a world Scale in the UK MMA is popular but nowhere near the size of boxing for example if a Hatton fight was on it would outsell that years UFC events combined over here. UFC is a good sport though, but very different from boxing.

[Gandalf]

I think this whole MMA thing is growing worldwide is really exaggerated. Where is it growing? The North American continent specifically countries like America and Canada? How popular is it in Latin American countries besides Brazil? And is it really more popular than boxing in like say Western Europe? From what I gather from the posters here and places like Boxingscene it isn't.

Hell even in Japan the land where they love their combat sports and where Pride once existed it's not even the number 1 combat sport, it's still Sumo wrestling followed by boxing. Don't believe me? The Kameda-Naito WBC flyweight championship in '09 average a 43.1% rating in Japan and peaking at 52%. The most watched combat sporting event since 1963 in that country according to 1 poster in the comment section. Naito-Kameda fight does ridiculous TV ratings in Japan - Bad Left Hook

How about other Asian countries like Thailand or the Phillipines? Or how about China since a few of their boxers won gold at the '08 olympics and the Duvas are training some of their fighters to turn pro? It's kind of funny for a martial art organization like the UFC it doesn't attract the same zealous fans worldwide that it does in the US.

Again MMA is growing indeed but not worldwide like Dana and it's UFC fans are saying and only in a few select countries like the US and Canada for example. You can forget about MMA having a significant impact in Latin American countries like Mexico or Puerto Rico or Argentina and many Latin American countries since boxing is the main combat sport there, with the exception of probably Brazil.

BTW I would love to see the real numbers on their PPV buys since Dana really doesn't release them like HBO is mandated to do since HBO is a public company, for I think the UFC numbers are really fudge up like the so called 1.5 million buys here or the 2.0 million buys there.

They used to show PPV boxing regularly for free out here, but that has stopped and hasn't been around for ages. Maybe as far back as Pac/Cotto. And yet there was UFC and James Toney live on my TV this last weekend. Of course, I had to watch the freak show, but only that one bout mind. I can only speak for here, but it seems that K1 and MMA is getting far more commercial coverage and boxing barely exists anymore. I can't speak for other Asian regions, but that's how it now is here. It sucks, I hate this MMA stuff.

Was Marquez-Diaz not an HBO PPV fight? To be fair Sky do give us quite a lot of big PPV fights from the U.S. but it has to involve at least one real big name. I was quite shocked that they didn't show Cotto's last fight but then again they showed us that debacle between Cintron and Williams. I'm sure that fight can't have helped things as far as Sky paying to show big fights over here.

I don't know, but it wasn't shown out here. Nothing is covered these days. I'm not in the UK or the US though, I am Korea bound.