America is an illegal and racist country much like Israel

[El Kabong]

Take the shame and move on. Don't try to bomb the rest of the world into the stone age.

...well I guess we can leave Afghanistan ooooh some 9 years ago

miles....I don't hate you or anything I just think you are looking at this in a flawed manner and that's below you, and the fact that you don't recognize it is just sad.

[Gandalf]

Take the shame and move on. Don't try to bomb the rest of the world into the stone age.

...well I guess we can leave Afghanistan ooooh some 9 years ago

miles....I don't hate you or anything I just think you are looking at this in a flawed manner and that's below you, and the fact that you don't recognize it is just sad.

Should never have gone there in the first place. There were other ways to go after Al Qaeda and those ways should have been exhausted before any invasion of another country. That's why we are are there 9 years later fighting who exactly?

Likewise, I don't hate you. We usually oppose each other on issues such as this, but I see no harm in pointing out the similarities in how supposedly superior cultures are allowed to steal the land of indigenous populations. Or even bomb others without due cause.

[amat]

Take the shame and move on. Don't try to bomb the rest of the world into the stone age.

...well I guess we can leave Afghanistan ooooh some 9 years ago

miles....I don't hate you or anything I just think you are looking at this in a flawed manner and that's below you, and the fact that you don't recognize it is just sad.

Should never have gone there in the first place. There were other ways to go after Al Qaeda and those ways should have been exhausted before any invasion of another country. That's why we are are there 9 years later fighting who exactly?

Likewise, I don't hate you. We usually oppose each other on issues such as this, but I see no harm in pointing out the similarities in how supposedly superior cultures are allowed to steal the land of indigenous populations. Or even bomb others without due cause.

Yeah who are we fighting? Al Qaeda and the taliban. Ohh but my guess is you think we shouldn't be fighting the Taliban, correct? Yet the Taliban are a breed of pure evil (this isn't right wing media talking, this is the truth) that people like me and you can't even begin to comprehend. Heinous, heinous people who do awful things and live life completely backwards, yet since they weren't the ones who ran the planes into the building, I guess we have no business interfering with their way of business.

But let me guess, we played a huge hand into putting them into power, that was going to be your next argument right? Why does that matter though? We have put evil people into power before and had to remove them, the Taliban need to be eradicated. This is a simple fact. I believe this with all of my heart, there is no other way to go about dealing with them.

Iraq is a cluster fuck, I know this. Our military planning going into Afghanistan kind of sucked. That's a bureaucracy problem, we are not the bad guys in Afghanistan. Iraq is more murky, we were WRONG to go in there and because of that we have the blood of a country's civil war on our hands. Still, we aren't the only bad guys their either and if you truly believe we are then you are simply detached from reality. I guess you aren't fully to blame as what you are reading is from anti-Imperialists who are actually just anti-Americans and people who have likely never stepped foot in Iraq or Afghanistan in their lives. It's made clear by your posts too.

[Gandalf]

Take the shame and move on. Don't try to bomb the rest of the world into the stone age.

...well I guess we can leave Afghanistan ooooh some 9 years ago

miles....I don't hate you or anything I just think you are looking at this in a flawed manner and that's below you, and the fact that you don't recognize it is just sad.

Should never have gone there in the first place. There were other ways to go after Al Qaeda and those ways should have been exhausted before any invasion of another country. That's why we are are there 9 years later fighting who exactly?

Likewise, I don't hate you. We usually oppose each other on issues such as this, but I see no harm in pointing out the similarities in how supposedly superior cultures are allowed to steal the land of indigenous populations. Or even bomb others without due cause.

Yeah who are we fighting? Al Qaeda and the taliban. Ohh but my guess is you think we shouldn't be fighting the Taliban, correct? Yet the Taliban are a breed of pure evil (this isn't right wing media talking, this is the truth) that people like me and you can't even begin to comprehend. Heinous, heinous people who do awful things and live life completely backwards, yet since they weren't the ones who ran the planes into the building, I guess we have no business interfering with their way of business.

But let me guess, we played a huge hand into putting them into power, that was going to be your next argument right? Why does that matter though? We have put evil people into power before and had to remove them, the Taliban need to be eradicated. This is a simple fact. I believe this with all of my heart, there is no other way to go about dealing with them.

Iraq is a cluster fuck, I know this. Our military planning going into Afghanistan kind of sucked. That's a bureaucracy problem, we are not the bad guys in Afghanistan. Iraq is more murky, we were WRONG to go in there and because of that we have the blood of a country's civil war on our hands. Still, we aren't the only bad guys their either and if you truly believe we are then you are simply detached from reality. I guess you aren't fully to blame as what you are reading is from anti-Imperialists who are actually just anti-Americans and people who have likely never stepped foot in Iraq or Afghanistan in their lives. It's made clear by your posts too.

Of the two wars I do happen to think that Afghanistan has some kind of jusification. However, diving in there as soon as the twin towers hit the floor was rash and foolish. Whence why we are still there. We didn't know the region and miscalculated what we were dealing with. I'm with you in arguing that the Taliban is a nasty piece of work and their mindsets are postively medieval. But those that caused 9-11 were primarily from allies such as Saudi Arabia. The neo-cons were itching to go to war any way they could because war for them means money. And off to war they went. Why not invade a nasty country like Saudi Arabia instead and hold them responsible for 9-11? Hell, why not invade Germany too?

Yes, America has put evil leaders into power and they have removed many more. However, this doesn't escape the fact that the US has no right to be backing military coups against sovereign governments or to be forcing their economic agenda the world over. How many times has the US government tried to assasinate Castro over the years? The American elite is absolutely bat shit crazy in its rigid determination to impose its will on the world. They will resort to any means possible to make sure resistance is futile. We have seen it time and time again. 9-11 was terrible, but let's look at the reasons why someone would want to do that. It is nothing to do with being jealous of the freedoms granted to US citizens and everything to do with years of resentment at measures imposed on individuals the world over. Evil breeds yet more evil. And in fighting the so called 'war on terror' evil is indeed breeding ever more evil. It's a futile quest and the elite know full well that it has no meaning.

Iraq was/is a clusterfuck. The reasons for war were a blatant lie. The way the media approached it was retarded and irresponsible. The whole war was about expanding the interests of private corporations in the military industrial complex and maintaining a grip on Iraqi oil. The war was not only morally wrong, but illegal. Going by the rules applied at Nuremburg, Bush and Blair should be tried as war criminals. Once again evil breeds evil and I'm sure that as a consequence a lot more people will be wishing for nasty things to happen to America and the UK. You make your own bed as they say. For sure it isn't only America, Britain likes to tag along on these little adventures too.

I don't know what you mean about the people I read being anti American. Klein is certainly very critical of the US, but I don't neccessarily regard that as anti-American. What's she supposed to say? That US foreign policy has spread happiness and joy around the world? Obviously it hasn't. And if you would take the time to read her book 'The shock doctrine' you will see that she has spent time in most of the places where America has spread its ugly tentacles and interviewed a lot of people who suffered during oppressive regimes or witnessed coups and so on. It's a great book and well worth a read. I certainly learned quite a bit. Chomsky is the other one that I read and listen to a lot. Again he is critical of America, but I don't regard him as anti-American. He is usually bang on the money with his observations and backs it all up with evidence.

Just face it, the American elite are a bunch of corrupt shits who are now even turning on their own population. I'm definitely against that kind of behaviour. Otherwise, I regard fellow Americans here as decent chaps, but I see no great problem with pointing out the evil and despotic nature of the corporate and political elites or that the country was built on genocide.

[El Kabong]

Should never have gone there in the first place. There were other ways to go after Al Qaeda and those ways should have been exhausted before any invasion of another country. That's why we are are there 9 years later fighting who exactly?

Likewise, I don't hate you. We usually oppose each other on issues such as this, but I see no harm in pointing out the similarities in how supposedly superior cultures are allowed to steal the land of indigenous populations. Or even bomb others without due cause.

#1 NO, we should have just stayed there in the 1980's and all this Al Queda, Taliban bullshit would have been avoided had we just given the Afghani people a hand in building their country after they got rid of the Soviets.

#2 Once again my issue with the way you are viewing this is that you judge the PAST by the morals and values we have TODAY. That is a flawed logic because the way we look at things today is incredibly different than the reality of life in the past. Now if we're talking recent past then there may be a little room for you to look at those events the way you're already looking at things.

[Gandalf]

Should never have gone there in the first place. There were other ways to go after Al Qaeda and those ways should have been exhausted before any invasion of another country. That's why we are are there 9 years later fighting who exactly?

Likewise, I don't hate you. We usually oppose each other on issues such as this, but I see no harm in pointing out the similarities in how supposedly superior cultures are allowed to steal the land of indigenous populations. Or even bomb others without due cause.

#1 NO, we should have just stayed there in the 1980's and all this Al Queda, Taliban bullshit would have been avoided had we just given the Afghani people a hand in building their country after they got rid of the Soviets.

#2 Once again my issue with the way you are viewing this is that you judge the PAST by the morals and values we have TODAY. That is a flawed logic because the way we look at things today is incredibly different than the reality of life in the past. Now if we're talking recent past then there may be a little room for you to look at those events the way you're already looking at things.

1 - That might have been a good idea.

2 - I still have to disagree with you. I think that no matter what period you are living in, killing people and stealing their land is always going to be regarded as wrong. Just because it is me stealing the land that in no way justifies that kind of action. It was wrong period. And the fact that we are allowing Israel to do the very same thing today (with less bloodshed) fills me with complete revulsion.

[El Kabong]

2 - I still have to disagree with you. I think that no matter what period you are living in, killing people and stealing their land is always going to be regarded as wrong. Just because it is me stealing the land that in no way justifies that kind of action. It was wrong period. And the fact that we are allowing Israel to do the very same thing today (with less bloodshed) fills me with complete revulsion.

OK so then why the pinpoint hatred on the United States? Why not hate on Spain, England, Portugal, The Netherlands, Germany, etc? Why no hate for China? If you were truly following what you say you're following then you'd hate on everybody and not just the US and Israel.

Why not hate on ancient Empires too? Stupid Egyptians, why the fuck would you use manual labor to build the pyramids? I mean HELLOOOOO machines can do those things better than people you rubes!....do you now see the flaw in your logic?

[Gandalf]

2 - I still have to disagree with you. I think that no matter what period you are living in, killing people and stealing their land is always going to be regarded as wrong. Just because it is me stealing the land that in no way justifies that kind of action. It was wrong period. And the fact that we are allowing Israel to do the very same thing today (with less bloodshed) fills me with complete revulsion.

OK so then why the pinpoint hatred on the United States? Why not hate on Spain, England, Portugal, The Netherlands, Germany, etc? Why no hate for China? If you were truly following what you say you're following then you'd hate on everybody and not just the US and Israel.

Why not hate on ancient Empires too? Stupid Egyptians, why the fuck would you use manual labor to build the pyramids? I mean HELLOOOOO machines can do those things better than people you rubes!....do you now see the flaw in your logic?

Lyle, my issues are with corporate and political elites. It has nothing to do with the American citizens of today. I have no issues with you Americans, but will for sure point out corruption in those elites and just yesterday added the fact that commiting genocide against native Indians wasn't a very nice thing to do. You and Amat didn't do that, so don't take it like I am condemning you personally. I am not.

For sure each of those countries has their own twisted and bitter history and I'm against all that too. But the influence of those countries is long gone and not really in the news for current discussion. America is the global power in the world today and wields that power in a very twisted way. I am very much against that. If America was doing good things for the world and its own citizenry then there wouldn't really be much to rail against. And actually I did start a thread about a year ago railing against China. And for sure I have said many negative things about Korea and the UK over the years. Israel is another one of my annoyances too. In fact if you were to have a chat with me, you would realise I talk quite a lot about the things I read in books and the media. I have an interest in current affairs and America tends to be part of that.

So again I don't think my logic is particularly flawed.

[El Kabong]

Bilbo from DOWNTOWN!

[El Kabong]

We forgive you Mel....I mean miles