PULL not PUSH your punches

[HerbM]

I am an old novice too (58 with about a year in boxing), and I too spend a lot of time seeking the best methods from multiple sources.

Have you thought about the seeming contradiction between #1 and #3 (there really is NOT one) when you are told to "put more weight behind" the punch, and yet "keep you weight back on your rear foot"?

There are multiple ways to get your body (not necessarily your 'weight' but there are ways to do that too) into a punch without throwing yourself forward.

Somewhere in this forum are threads where we discussed this and at least one where I ran down most of the methods to do this....

Dropping, pushing (from feet), turning, pulling back with opposite side, etc....

[WayneFlint]

I agree herb its not so much the bodyweight that is the point, yes bodyweight behind a shot is better than an arm punch but using all the points you mentioned at the end of that post herb is what makes for a powerful punch not bodyweight alone and this is because your using your body with good economy with the optimal triggers to build up momentum, yes your bodyweight is behind the punch but behind your bodyweight is your legs/feet pushing, pivoting. knees dropping, shoulders rotating and a solid base using foot/knee placement to get into a good position braced to recieve the recoil of the impact in the oposite direction (will help if a bag/heavy fighter is swinging/moving towards your shot, bodyweight is not enough in these cases) from which the punch is being delieverd from etc, etc which allows for the stopping power. bodyweight punches with very shoddy technique and foot/knee placement will bounce off a target rather than strike into and through it powerfully stopping.

Using bodyweight is better than arm punches but it can never compare to proper technique because there are limits when using bodyweight/gravity to throw a punch like most people do when starting out boxing.

[Scrap]

Its all to do with where the Head is, Balancing the Oral Cavity.

[krotala]

Great advice guys.
I did it and it definitely gives more snap and power to the punch.
I do have a question though....How does this whole concept apply when deciding to double or triple the jab?
Does the momentum from the initial jab carry over to the next two or do I have to pull the opposing shoulder for every single jab?
I'm looking forward to what scrap has to say.

[HerbM]

No, the only way for "momentum to carry over" is for there to never be a stoppage nor a reversal which never happens from punch to punch (in typical punches.)

You throw a punch -- it stops -- you retract it. At the moment it stops all moment (in that direction) is gone. That's physics, and not very complex compared with the kinetic chains in the body that produce that initial momentum (e.g., multiple muscle applying force through multiple levers, the bones).

However when you retract a punch you can -- and should -- be retracting all the opposing muscles to the ones that powered the punch. Now, you can once again throw that punch with full power.

This is also one of the biggest reasons that 'staying relaxed' is so hard, and such an important method to increase punching power, but also why practice will improve your delivery so much if you put in thousands and thousands of really high quality reps.

They key: You must be able to release ALL the contractions in the opposing muscles while throwing the punch, then at the end of the punch extension instantaneously release the muscles powering the punch, and simultaneously contract the opposing muscles for retraction.

That ability to turn off and turn on the contraction is what you are training -- in addition to the perfect form of the punch and the exact sequence of turning on the chains of muscles while maintaining balance (other sets of muscles which must coordinate as your distribution of weight and changing momentum alter your static balance.)

[krotala]

Thanks.
The only problem I have with jabbing this way is (aside from the fact that it's new to my muscle memory) is that it's very hard to bounce rhythmically while initiating that first jab.
I guess this opens up another whole discussion which revolves around the concept of either having a small rhythmic bounce enough to stay on the balls of the feet or staying planted on the stance. I tend to lean towards the first but I've been getting conflicting opinions.

[HerbM]

Why are you bouncing?

Where did you learn that?

What are the benefits?

Do you know the disadvantages to that?

[krotala]

No, the only way for "momentum to carry over" is for there to never be a stoppage nor a reversal which never happens from punch to punch (in typical punches.)

You throw a punch -- it stops -- you retract it. At the moment it stops all moment (in that direction) is gone. That's physics, and not very complex compared with the kinetic chains in the body that produce that initial momentum (e.g., multiple muscle applying force through multiple levers, the bones).

However when you retract a punch you can -- and should -- be retracting all the opposing muscles to the ones that powered the punch. Now, you can once again throw that punch with full power.

This is also one of the biggest reasons that 'staying relaxed' is so hard, and such an important method to increase punching power, but also why practice will improve your delivery so much if you put in thousands and thousands of really high quality reps.

They key: You must be able to release ALL the contractions in the opposing muscles while throwing the punch, then at the end of the punch extension instantaneously release the muscles powering the punch, and simultaneously contract the opposing muscles for retraction.

That ability to turn off and turn on the contraction is what you are training -- in addition to the perfect form of the punch and the exact sequence of turning on the chains of muscles while maintaining balance (other sets of muscles which must coordinate as your distribution of weight and changing momentum alter your static balance.)

I was wondering if there is a youtube video of a fighter who is very clearly using that method so we can see it in action.

[HerbM]

...
They key: You must be able to release ALL the contractions in the opposing muscles while throwing the punch, then at the end of the punch extension instantaneously release the muscles powering the punch, and simultaneously contract the opposing muscles for retraction.
...

I was wondering if there is a youtube video of a fighter who is very clearly using that method so we can see it in action.

Is this (i.e., my quote portion above) what you mean by "that method"?

If so, there likely isn't going to be any video that will satisfy your curiosity or give you any real help in duplicating it since to the untrained eye a punch delivered with full relaxation (of the unnecessary muscles) will look about the same.

They FEEL different however, and feeling one of those is a big difference.

Since the puncher doesn't "hold back" the punch, nor stop it before opponent or the bag STOPS the punch, ALL of the momentum is transferred into the target.

Usually I demo these for people by using little short punches with very little speed -- just so you can feel the surprising amount of energy that you receive.

There are plenty of Systema videos showing such punches but without feeling them yourself you will be tempted to think that the effects are not real or true.

Try searching YouTube or Google videos for

Sonny Puzikas strike | punch

Or start here:

Sonny is the Systema guy who was one of the Spetsnaz team in the Ultimate Warrior episode against the Green Berets. He is the real deal -- and yes, I have been hit by him (but not very hard.)

Also either Vladimir Vasilieve, Mikhail Ryabko, or Val Riazanov have videos showing these type of hits explicitly.

You CAN (and I do) use this method to throw jabs, crosses, and other classic boxing punches although typically when the Systema people demonstrate the relaxed punch they use the 'weight of the arm' instead of using much speed.

People who spar with me almost always spontaneously comment (at some point) on how "heavy" my punches feel -- not that I am throwing hard or using more force than is appropriate to the sparring level, just that they hit heavy.

This is because I am (mostly) letting THEM stop the punch rather than my arms or the full extension of my joints do the work.

Punches are more efficient using less internal energy and oxygen (i.e. you don't get as tired as fast) and they go out QUICKER with MORE POWER.

--
Herb