PULL not PUSH your punches

[Scrap]

Its all to do with where the Head is, Balancing the Oral Cavity.

[krotala]

Great advice guys.
I did it and it definitely gives more snap and power to the punch.
I do have a question though....How does this whole concept apply when deciding to double or triple the jab?
Does the momentum from the initial jab carry over to the next two or do I have to pull the opposing shoulder for every single jab?
I'm looking forward to what scrap has to say.

[HerbM]

No, the only way for "momentum to carry over" is for there to never be a stoppage nor a reversal which never happens from punch to punch (in typical punches.)

You throw a punch -- it stops -- you retract it. At the moment it stops all moment (in that direction) is gone. That's physics, and not very complex compared with the kinetic chains in the body that produce that initial momentum (e.g., multiple muscle applying force through multiple levers, the bones).

However when you retract a punch you can -- and should -- be retracting all the opposing muscles to the ones that powered the punch. Now, you can once again throw that punch with full power.

This is also one of the biggest reasons that 'staying relaxed' is so hard, and such an important method to increase punching power, but also why practice will improve your delivery so much if you put in thousands and thousands of really high quality reps.

They key: You must be able to release ALL the contractions in the opposing muscles while throwing the punch, then at the end of the punch extension instantaneously release the muscles powering the punch, and simultaneously contract the opposing muscles for retraction.

That ability to turn off and turn on the contraction is what you are training -- in addition to the perfect form of the punch and the exact sequence of turning on the chains of muscles while maintaining balance (other sets of muscles which must coordinate as your distribution of weight and changing momentum alter your static balance.)

[krotala]

Thanks.
The only problem I have with jabbing this way is (aside from the fact that it's new to my muscle memory) is that it's very hard to bounce rhythmically while initiating that first jab.
I guess this opens up another whole discussion which revolves around the concept of either having a small rhythmic bounce enough to stay on the balls of the feet or staying planted on the stance. I tend to lean towards the first but I've been getting conflicting opinions.

[HerbM]

Why are you bouncing?

Where did you learn that?

What are the benefits?

Do you know the disadvantages to that?

[krotala]

Well I guess many trainers including Kenny Weldon,Russ Anbar (my trainer too), as well as many professional fighters . I was told that this "rhythm" as they say it, is done to always stay on the balls of the feet, as well as maintain constant movement.
I have however heard from some people that this movement is not good.
I'm waiting to hear your opinions on that matter.

Thanks

[nikola_ganchev]

For me the benefits of bouncings(forwarts and backwards) are 3... If the boxer bounces fast enough he uses the elasticity of his muscles. That means that he uses much less energy. If you stay 5 mins on the balls and not moving you want be able to move after that... The secont reason is that the boxer is already in motion. If you are goinig forwarts in your rhythm it will be much faster to trow the jab... The thirt reason is the defence.First If the boxer is getting hit, he will be "softer" target. This means that he will absorb less damage. Second: without a rhythm its almost impossible to evade punches(atleast to the left)... This constant movement gives the oder guy uncertainty and makes the movement of the boxer slightly faste(all the great "head movers" have their own rhythm).
On the oder hand if you bounce you loose some punching power. This comes from the mechanic of the punch. In order to get alot of speed you need great acceleration. This means that you need the biger muscles(gluts instead of calves) to initiate your punch. Thats why all the great punchers have there feets planted.

[krotala]

No, the only way for "momentum to carry over" is for there to never be a stoppage nor a reversal which never happens from punch to punch (in typical punches.)

You throw a punch -- it stops -- you retract it. At the moment it stops all moment (in that direction) is gone. That's physics, and not very complex compared with the kinetic chains in the body that produce that initial momentum (e.g., multiple muscle applying force through multiple levers, the bones).

However when you retract a punch you can -- and should -- be retracting all the opposing muscles to the ones that powered the punch. Now, you can once again throw that punch with full power.

This is also one of the biggest reasons that 'staying relaxed' is so hard, and such an important method to increase punching power, but also why practice will improve your delivery so much if you put in thousands and thousands of really high quality reps.

They key: You must be able to release ALL the contractions in the opposing muscles while throwing the punch, then at the end of the punch extension instantaneously release the muscles powering the punch, and simultaneously contract the opposing muscles for retraction.

That ability to turn off and turn on the contraction is what you are training -- in addition to the perfect form of the punch and the exact sequence of turning on the chains of muscles while maintaining balance (other sets of muscles which must coordinate as your distribution of weight and changing momentum alter your static balance.)

I was wondering if there is a youtube video of a fighter who is very clearly using that method so we can see it in action.

[HerbM]

...
They key: You must be able to release ALL the contractions in the opposing muscles while throwing the punch, then at the end of the punch extension instantaneously release the muscles powering the punch, and simultaneously contract the opposing muscles for retraction.
...

I was wondering if there is a youtube video of a fighter who is very clearly using that method so we can see it in action.

Is this (i.e., my quote portion above) what you mean by "that method"?

If so, there likely isn't going to be any video that will satisfy your curiosity or give you any real help in duplicating it since to the untrained eye a punch delivered with full relaxation (of the unnecessary muscles) will look about the same.

They FEEL different however, and feeling one of those is a big difference.

Since the puncher doesn't "hold back" the punch, nor stop it before opponent or the bag STOPS the punch, ALL of the momentum is transferred into the target.

Usually I demo these for people by using little short punches with very little speed -- just so you can feel the surprising amount of energy that you receive.

There are plenty of Systema videos showing such punches but without feeling them yourself you will be tempted to think that the effects are not real or true.

Try searching YouTube or Google videos for

Sonny Puzikas strike | punch

Or start here:

Sonny is the Systema guy who was one of the Spetsnaz team in the Ultimate Warrior episode against the Green Berets. He is the real deal -- and yes, I have been hit by him (but not very hard.)

Also either Vladimir Vasilieve, Mikhail Ryabko, or Val Riazanov have videos showing these type of hits explicitly.

You CAN (and I do) use this method to throw jabs, crosses, and other classic boxing punches although typically when the Systema people demonstrate the relaxed punch they use the 'weight of the arm' instead of using much speed.

People who spar with me almost always spontaneously comment (at some point) on how "heavy" my punches feel -- not that I am throwing hard or using more force than is appropriate to the sparring level, just that they hit heavy.

This is because I am (mostly) letting THEM stop the punch rather than my arms or the full extension of my joints do the work.

Punches are more efficient using less internal energy and oxygen (i.e. you don't get as tired as fast) and they go out QUICKER with MORE POWER.

--
Herb

[WayneFlint]

Im not quite sure what the video is about? not having a dig im just interested and dont want to miss out on the point. but it just looks like hes hitting the guy with a lazy left hook/swing which later he straightens out into more of a hook/straight for a strike or 2? seems like when hes loading it he leaves himself open due to the swinging, relaxed type approach/positioning hes taken to load the shot ive sort of been under the impression that most people instinctivley know how to punch letting a bag or object stop the punch and its this quality what is actually harder to train out of a new fighter then to train into one, to get the more prefered snappy harder to counter boxing style, controlled shot.

in my opinion this is what makes a punch like this dangerous in combat due to its lack of control if your up against a skilled counter puncher if the attack misses your going to pay with balance or by taking unnecessary counter shots. Weve all heared the saying ''you couldnt hit a person like that'' and i believe this is what that saying is about, not the fact that you cant set up a fighter to plant the feet for a solid shot like you can on a bag because youcan, it means that if you try hitting someone like this at some point your going to miss and pay for it dearly.

I agree its tempting to throw shots like this, especially on the bag and thats the problem, dont fall into the trap. a while back i was messing about and discovered unorthadox ways to throw uppercuts with a switch similair to how naz threw some cuts but with a twist, using similair principals as letting the shots go. this uppercut allows for enough force it has clean picked up 200lb heavy bags and a 160lb sparring partner when he caught the uppercut with his gloves using the principle of 'letting the shot go' and in effect the bag catches and stops the shot aswell as you and your bodyweight that is in a good position behind the shot to really drive the cut up into the bag, both using full advantage of gravity and still not losing the ability to drive with the shot, and im not even joking or bragging its not my style, i only weigh 11st 3lb, the downfall to the shot is it leaves you in a very shitty place with not many directions or options if you want out quickly, if you miss youve got to have very strong quads/hams to catch yourself otherwise your on your ass. im slowly working on the mobility issues yourleft with after the shot and with scraps expertice i think it may be a shot that couldbe quite useful but the position it leaves you with is not ideal to say the least, ive managed to set up the uppercut on a few lads im sparring with but theyve only boxed for about 8 month or so now so its not exactly a tried and tested/safe movement i wouldnt say, still needs all the kinks working out before i even think about using it on more talented fighters, which would still be a huge risk to throw but setup carefully against the right fighter i could maybe get away with it.

Interesting stuff this video herb but im afraid it needs a bit more explanation in whats going on or sparring footage to make it stand out from the rest of the demonstration only type martial arts ive seen.

I like when a fighter starts talking about feel because in my eyes to a fighter there is nothing more important, without it we are numb, very un aware of what is actually going on, scary to thuink where wed be without feel. this was somthing i always knew as a young fighter competing in taekwondo because often you was spinning while attacking you couldnt use your eyes to the effect that you can in boxing and after starting boxing i soon realised that this (the eyes) seem to cause a lot of problems. rather than actually making it easier seeing what your doing as you are often locked onto the target when hitting it in boxing where i didnt have problems in TKD over complicating/thinlking techniques because the style forces you to rely more on feel to coordinate rather than your eyes.

However in my own experience just because somthing 'feels' right doesnt mean it is.
The feel i think your refering to doesnt necisarily mean your using good technique it just means your used to doing the movement your performing, the trick is to train good technique to 'feel' right

Are there any videos of this guy using systema techniques in the ring or otherwise? id prefer to see how functional the techniques can be in a fight scenario rather than in demonstrations. i cant help but ask the question if it is effective then why dont we see more of it in MMA.

[HerbM]

Im not quite sure what the video is about? not having a dig im just interested and dont want to miss out on the point.

I have delayed answering this post since it is long and thoughtful, and it deserves a similar answer, but you have asked me similar questions in the past.

We've discussed the same topic several times, and obviously I have either failed to explain it clearly enough or more likely you just don't agree with my explanations (which is fine and not a 'dig'.)

...but it just looks like hes hitting the guy with a lazy left hook/swing which later he straightens out into more of a hook/straight for a strike or 2? seems like when hes loading it he leaves himself open due to the swinging, relaxed type approach/positioning hes taken to load the shot

It's a DEMO of a way to throw a relaxed punch not a way to fight. You can trow the same way with any STYLE or TYPE of punch once you learn to relax.

I warned that person requesting the videos would NOT BE SATISFIED by seeing a good demo.

Why? It will either look like this to demonstrate the QUALITY of the punch or it will look like a "regular punch" and no one but the guy getting hit will ever know the difference (unless perhaps they already know the difference and monitor the boxers' affect and effect on both boxers.)

ive sort of been under the impression that most people instinctivley know how to punch letting a bag or object stop the punch and its this quality what is actually harder to train out of a new fighter then to train into one, to get the more prefered snappy harder to counter boxing style, controlled shot.

What is the VALUE of a "snappy" punch? If it is to avoid leaving the punch hanging out there then this is no issue since you can transfer into the target and still 'snap' (pull) back the punch rapidly.

If it some idea of popping the SURFACE of the target by stopping the punch before it penetrates INTO the target then some of the energy is being wasted -- or worse, is requiring ADDITIONAL EXTRA energy to overcome that momentum.

This is simple physics -- the energy is either:

• Absorbed by the target
• Absorbed and countered by the boxers own muscles, tendons, and joints
• Redirected in some other direction (like an ice skater turns and maintains speed)
• Or a combination

Where do you want the energy to go?

As long as you can maintain good balance, defense, and form (stance etc) putting it INTO THE TARGET does the most damage and requires both the least expenditure of (additional) energy to "stop the punch".

In fact, it is ALL put into the target will actually have the LEAST effect on disturbing balance and stance.

The trick is to learn to let go of the hands and arm ballistically but still be able to retrieve the punch rapidly when it is complete.

When is it complete? When it misses you must use your own power (or joints) to stop it OR you must redirect it in an arc or other path to use that energy elsewhere.

in my opinion this is what makes a punch like this dangerous in combat due to its lack of control if your up against a skilled counter puncher if the attack misses your going to pay with balance or by taking unnecessary counter shots. Weve all heared the saying ''you couldnt hit a person like that'' and i believe this is what that saying is about, not the fact that you cant set up a fighter to plant the feet for a solid shot like you can on a bag because youcan, it means that if you try hitting someone like this at some point your going to miss and pay for it dearly.

"A punch like this dangerous" -- You mean a DEMO of a relaxed punch or do you mean a real relaxed punch that is externally indistinguishable from a perfect JAB, CROSS, HOOK, etc?

These types of punches almost never (should never) disturb balance or form -- they don't commit body weight nor core power by default -- you don't need that with these, but you can add it on at the end when the punch striking the target is assured.

Even then you only commit core and balanced weight, never beyond your ability to maintain that form and balance.

Even in the demos no one is moving off balance or with bad form (i.e., posture.)

Are there any videos of this guy using systema techniques in the ring or otherwise?

I don't know of any videos where the fight is conventional AND you can SEE the mechanics - part of the point of these punches is to disguise their nature. To send out relaxed punches that look like anything else but hit much harder and without using extra energy.

But if you think it through, you will realize the physics of it, and recognize the only person who will know is the one who it getting hit a LOT harder.

id prefer to see how functional the techniques can be in a fight scenario rather than in demonstrations. i cant help but ask the question if it is effective then why dont we see more of it in MMA.

Oleg Taktarov won UFC #6 (back when there were much fewer rules) and he is a decent Systema guy, having appeared on several commercial instruction videos with the main North American Systema guy in North America, Vladimir Vasiliev.

You won't see the spiral style (for misses) in boxing because of the rules which don't allow you to hit with anything but the front of the glove (e.g., no backhands or elbows) and which don't allow you to kick, trip, butt or otherwise use your whole body, your hands have to do the hitting AND they have to protect you because you are not allowed to use that other stuff to disrupt the counters.

You can't see the boxing punches which are transferring energy completely as LOOKING any different from an ordinary punch.

Imagine you had two punches each with 100 units of energy (Newtons/second if you must).

Would you rather be hit by a punch which transferred some percentage (say, 90%, or 70%) of that force (90 units or 70 units) into your head?

Or by a punch that transferred the entire 100 units into your head?

Also recognize that the second punch that transfers all of the energy will be traveling faster and will have a HIGHER IMPULSE (energy and shock capability) value.

Higher impulses are more likely to break and crush things because they give less time for the energy to be absorbed and dissipated (such as by your head beginning to move out of the way or by the elasticity of your cranium.)

It's hard to make such physical subtleties clear, especially if the physics arguments are unfamiliar to you, so if this is insufficient then we would just have to try to help you find an (advanced) Systema guy who could hit you and teach you to do it.

Then you could try it and feel it for yourself. I hate giving such an answer, but the physics are quite clear and indisputable so this is merely an alternative for those who don't like math and such.

When you combine HARDER and FASTER punches that use LESS ENERGY and LESS OXYGEN to create the benefits are quite surprising.

Every coach tells boxers to RELAX -- so what are they supposed to be RELAXING?

The muscles that slow down their punches is what. The muscles that remove energy and use unnecessary 02 and energy molecules are what you need to relax.

--
Herb