Now some time has passed.. Your final vote on Pac's refusal...

[ono]

I don't think people realise how big a part ego's play in all this. If Pacquiao concedes any ground in this and goes along with Mayweather's requests, he automatically concedes that Mayweather is the man. Furthermore Pacquiao has complied with the various testing policies of the sport's governing bodies.

With the weight gain, what he has achieved isn't really that bizarre. Here are his Fight Night weights over the last 3-4 years...

Nov 06





Oct 07





March 08





June 08





December 08





May 09






November 09 (was reported 148lb come fight night)





March 10 (was reported 149lb come fight night)







Basically, it's not that big of a deal. It could very easily have been achieved by any athlete who increases his nutritonal intake. The other thing people talk about is the fact that he's carried his power up. But even when you look at that, he actually is pretty much the same. Cotto and Hatton were both hurt/knocked out because they were moving forwards at the pointof impact. Diaz was ko'd after taking an absolute pummelling. Oscar and Clottey weren't really hurt because they were constantly on the back foot, both in survival mode. Pacquiao's power comes from his speed and accuracy. Mayweather has never been a knockout puncher but he ko'd Hatton because Hatton walked onto the shot. If Margarito walks onto a few, he might find himself on his arse. That's just how getting punched in the face works.

[ross]

Good fighters who arent taking anyything illegal just dont stay so ripped!

Look at Duran as he moved up or any other fighter in history, they always lose something. Well not really lose, just that as a powerfull puncher moves up in weight, his muscles mass hasnt really changed and so his punches havent really got any more powerfull. Sometimes the fighter can be more relaxed because they havent had to drain down to weight and there punches can be stronger but Manny has kept everything. Speed, strength but the most dubious thing about his move up in weight is his body composition! Ask any bodybuilder how hard it is to grow muscle naturally, let alone an athlete that has to balance size and speed!

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Good fighters who arent taking anyything illegal just dont stay so ripped!

Look at Duran as he moved up or any other fighter in history, they always lose something. Well not really lose, just that as a powerfull puncher moves up in weight, his muscles mass hasnt really changed and so his punches havent really got any more powerfull. Sometimes the fighter can be more relaxed because they havent had to drain down to weight and there punches can be stronger but Manny has kept everything. Speed, strength but the most dubious thing about his move up in weight is his body composition! Ask any bodybuilder how hard it is to grow muscle naturally, let alone an athlete that has to balance size and speed!

In terms of speed, power and physical strength... Floyd, Oscar or Roy Jones Jnr. have all been remarkable in their careers.

It's different these days because I think fighters are boiling down more in weight than they used to. I guess move up with better efficiency too..?

I think Hopkins is a good example of how you can do it both ways. He managed to stay at 160 with relative ease due to his absolute commitment a particular lifestyle that ensured he was trim and healthy. Then when he wanted to move up to 175 he again committed himself to becoming a bigger fighter with added muscle mass but retaining all of his previous attributes.
He, Roy, Oscar & Floyd all look just as fast and powerful as what they did divisions before.

[ross]

In terms of speed, power and physical strength... Floyd, Oscar or Roy Jones Jnr. have all been remarkable in their careers.

Well apart from Jones, the other 2 did look softer as they moved up and Jones was the one who was caught using steroids.

[:::PSL:::]

Basically, it's not that big of a deal. It could very easily have been achieved by any athlete who increases his nutritonal intake. The other thing people talk about is the fact that he's carried his power up. But even when you look at that, he actually is pretty much the same. Cotto and Hatton were both hurt/knocked out because they were moving forwards at the pointof impact. Diaz was ko'd after taking an absolute pummelling. Oscar and Clottey weren't really hurt because they were constantly on the back foot, both in survival mode. Pacquiao's power comes from his speed and accuracy. Mayweather has never been a knockout puncher but he ko'd Hatton because Hatton walked onto the shot. If Margarito walks onto a few, he might find himself on his arse. That's just how getting punched in the face works.

Yep. Just like they say "the punches you don't see coming hurts more". And Pac was just hitting those guys with punches that they don't see coming.

[erics44]

Basically, it's not that big of a deal. It could very easily have been achieved by any athlete who increases his nutritonal intake. The other thing people talk about is the fact that he's carried his power up. But even when you look at that, he actually is pretty much the same. Cotto and Hatton were both hurt/knocked out because they were moving forwards at the pointof impact. Diaz was ko'd after taking an absolute pummelling. Oscar and Clottey weren't really hurt because they were constantly on the back foot, both in survival mode. Pacquiao's power comes from his speed and accuracy. Mayweather has never been a knockout puncher but he ko'd Hatton because Hatton walked onto the shot. If Margarito walks onto a few, he might find himself on his arse. That's just how getting punched in the face works.

i promise you pal, its not easily achieved

like i said in the pac v marg thread, to gain anything more than a couple to 5 maybe pounds of lean muscle a year is a fantastic achievement, anymore is almost unheard of

bodybuilders generally dont build lean muscle after they are 23 years old ish

they bulk and cut, so they gain more than a couple of pounds of muscle in a year, andything upto 10 or 15 pounds but they put on masses of fat as well during a bulk, then they diet and cut the fat

you check out pics of famous bodybuilders off season

[:::PSL:::]

Basically, it's not that big of a deal. It could very easily have been achieved by any athlete who increases his nutritonal intake. The other thing people talk about is the fact that he's carried his power up. But even when you look at that, he actually is pretty much the same. Cotto and Hatton were both hurt/knocked out because they were moving forwards at the pointof impact. Diaz was ko'd after taking an absolute pummelling. Oscar and Clottey weren't really hurt because they were constantly on the back foot, both in survival mode. Pacquiao's power comes from his speed and accuracy. Mayweather has never been a knockout puncher but he ko'd Hatton because Hatton walked onto the shot. If Margarito walks onto a few, he might find himself on his arse. That's just how getting punched in the face works.

i promise you pal, its not easily achieved

like i said in the pac v marg thread, to gain anything more than a couple to 5 maybe pounds of lean muscle a year is a fantastic achievement, anymore is almost unheard of

bodybuilders generally dont build lean muscle after they are 23 years old ish

they bulk and cut, so they gain more than a couple of pounds of muscle in a year, andything upto 10 or 15 pounds but they put on masses of fat as well during a bulk, then they diet and cut the fat

you check out pics of famous bodybuilders off season

No offense Eric. But this is like a de javu thing for me. I think where heading down the road where everybody think they're steroid experts, but they're actually not.

[erics44]

Basically, it's not that big of a deal. It could very easily have been achieved by any athlete who increases his nutritonal intake. The other thing people talk about is the fact that he's carried his power up. But even when you look at that, he actually is pretty much the same. Cotto and Hatton were both hurt/knocked out because they were moving forwards at the pointof impact. Diaz was ko'd after taking an absolute pummelling. Oscar and Clottey weren't really hurt because they were constantly on the back foot, both in survival mode. Pacquiao's power comes from his speed and accuracy. Mayweather has never been a knockout puncher but he ko'd Hatton because Hatton walked onto the shot. If Margarito walks onto a few, he might find himself on his arse. That's just how getting punched in the face works.

i promise you pal, its not easily achieved

like i said in the pac v marg thread, to gain anything more than a couple to 5 maybe pounds of lean muscle a year is a fantastic achievement, anymore is almost unheard of

bodybuilders generally dont build lean muscle after they are 23 years old ish

they bulk and cut, so they gain more than a couple of pounds of muscle in a year, andything upto 10 or 15 pounds but they put on masses of fat as well during a bulk, then they diet and cut the fat

you check out pics of famous bodybuilders off season

No offense Eric. But this is like a de javu thing for me. I think where heading down the road where everybody think they're steroid experts, but they're actually not.

im not saying i'm an expert man, but im heavily into the scene, i read a lot about it and talk to a lot of people about gaining muscle on a daily basis

so no offence to you but i can garentee that my judgement on this is a lot more accurate than what ono said

and remember my reply was just to onos - "its not that big a deal, it could very easily be done"

im not saying 10 - 15lb of natural lean muscle in 6 months is imposible but it is pretty astionishing

join www.uk-muscle.com and ask around on there, i'm telling you the response will be pretty unanimous, that to get that sort of return even in perfect conditions unless you are some sort of freak you would need roids

remember, im not even saying that is what manny has done, it was just a reply to onos statement

p.s. if manny was in his teens or very early 20s then it would be more believeable

[erics44]

june to december 2008 he gained 8lbs and was still very lean

its a fantastic achievement, for bodybuilding standards

i could be wrong, maybe some of the weight was water or something, i dont know

[generalbulldog]

A-Side Meth homie. I mean those orientals have been using something called A-side meth, that's the drug.

You guys know why the Flips managed to walk through bullets against the US military? That's your answer, A-side meth. It makes you walk through bullets on the battlefield of war and take punches in the boxing ring.

[ono]

Basically, it's not that big of a deal. It could very easily have been achieved by any athlete who increases his nutritonal intake. The other thing people talk about is the fact that he's carried his power up. But even when you look at that, he actually is pretty much the same. Cotto and Hatton were both hurt/knocked out because they were moving forwards at the pointof impact. Diaz was ko'd after taking an absolute pummelling. Oscar and Clottey weren't really hurt because they were constantly on the back foot, both in survival mode. Pacquiao's power comes from his speed and accuracy. Mayweather has never been a knockout puncher but he ko'd Hatton because Hatton walked onto the shot. If Margarito walks onto a few, he might find himself on his arse. That's just how getting punched in the face works.

i promise you pal, its not easily achieved

like i said in the pac v marg thread, to gain anything more than a couple to 5 maybe pounds of lean muscle a year is a fantastic achievement, anymore is almost unheard of

bodybuilders generally dont build lean muscle after they are 23 years old ish

they bulk and cut, so they gain more than a couple of pounds of muscle in a year, andything upto 10 or 15 pounds but they put on masses of fat as well during a bulk, then they diet and cut the fat

you check out pics of famous bodybuilders off season

Mate, once again you're talking absolute bollocks.

The comment i have highlighted is so stupid, it deserves a special mention. Testosterone levels reach a peak around the mid 20's. After that, they start to slowly decline. That is why it is harder for a person to add muscle mass as they get older. However, to say people don't build lean muscle once they're about 23 is absolute tosh.

You don't need to promise me anything. I suggest you take the time to read through a Sport's Nutrition textbook, or read the carbohydrate section of the Sport's Nutrition Bible, which is authored by me, in the training section of this very site.

Getting back to Pacquiao. His natural weight, or his weigh-in weight has increased by around 15lbs, in 4 years. Once again, that isn't unrealistic for an athlete who is consuming 8,000 cals per day. It's also worth mentioning that the higher he goes up in weight, the less he has to deplete himself before the weigh-in. So a Pacquiao weighing at 129 isn't really a true reflection of his actual weight because he will have more han likely have been dehydrated, wheras for a fight at Welterweight, he can actually afford to be hydrated and he can afford for his muscle glycogen stores to be close to being fully loaded. This in itself will account for around 6 or 7lbs.

Like i said, he's done nothing that's even remotely out of the ordinary here.

But please, carry on with your cliched nonsense

[erics44]

Basically, it's not that big of a deal. It could very easily have been achieved by any athlete who increases his nutritonal intake. The other thing people talk about is the fact that he's carried his power up. But even when you look at that, he actually is pretty much the same. Cotto and Hatton were both hurt/knocked out because they were moving forwards at the pointof impact. Diaz was ko'd after taking an absolute pummelling. Oscar and Clottey weren't really hurt because they were constantly on the back foot, both in survival mode. Pacquiao's power comes from his speed and accuracy. Mayweather has never been a knockout puncher but he ko'd Hatton because Hatton walked onto the shot. If Margarito walks onto a few, he might find himself on his arse. That's just how getting punched in the face works.

i promise you pal, its not easily achieved

like i said in the pac v marg thread, to gain anything more than a couple to 5 maybe pounds of lean muscle a year is a fantastic achievement, anymore is almost unheard of

bodybuilders generally dont build lean muscle after they are 23 years old ish

they bulk and cut, so they gain more than a couple of pounds of muscle in a year, andything upto 10 or 15 pounds but they put on masses of fat as well during a bulk, then they diet and cut the fat

you check out pics of famous bodybuilders off season

Mate, once again you're talking absolute bollocks.

The comment i have highlighted is so stupid, it deserves a special mention. Testosterone levels reach a peak around the mid 20's. After that, they start to slowly decline. That is why it is harder for a person to add muscle mass as they get older. However, to say people don't build lean muscle once they're about 23 is absolute tosh.

You don't need to promise me anything. I suggest you take the time to read through a Sport's Nutrition textbook, or read the carbohydrate section of the Sport's Nutrition Bible, which is authored by me, in the training section of this very site.

Getting back to Pacquiao. His natural weight, or his weigh-in weight has increased by around 15lbs, in 4 years. Once again, that isn't unrealistic for an athlete who is consuming 8,000 cals per day. It's also worth mentioning that the higher he goes up in weight, the less he has to deplete himself before the weigh-in. So a Pacquiao weighing at 129 isn't really a true reflection of his actual weight because he will have more han likely have been dehydrated, wheras for a fight at Welterweight, he can actually afford to be hydrated and he can afford for his muscle glycogen stores to be close to being fully loaded. This in itself will account for around 6 or 7lbs.

Like i said, he's done nothing that's even remotely out of the ordinary here.

But please, carry on with your cliched nonsense

dude, people do build lean muscle but not at a very fast rate and the bit of my text you have highlighted is absolutely true

even those on steriods dont build lean muscle for most of the year, they bulk like nattys because thats the best way to add muscle

man, i am right sorry

and back to pac, 15lbs in 4 years isnt unrealistic, 8000 calories a day is pretty far fetched especially without putting on any fat

i am eating 3500 - 4500 (at a push) at the minute, 5-6 meals a day all clean high calories meals, i am 16 stone (a lot bigger than pac), that is including the best meal replacement/weight gain suppliments - it very very difficult to keep it going, i have to have a day off a week where i eat around 2500 cals, some days i am almost making myself sick

I train hard, i am gaining a lot of fat as well as muscle (hopefully)

what you are suggesting pac has done, is pretty high in the sky

[ono]

Basically, it's not that big of a deal. It could very easily have been achieved by any athlete who increases his nutritonal intake. The other thing people talk about is the fact that he's carried his power up. But even when you look at that, he actually is pretty much the same. Cotto and Hatton were both hurt/knocked out because they were moving forwards at the pointof impact. Diaz was ko'd after taking an absolute pummelling. Oscar and Clottey weren't really hurt because they were constantly on the back foot, both in survival mode. Pacquiao's power comes from his speed and accuracy. Mayweather has never been a knockout puncher but he ko'd Hatton because Hatton walked onto the shot. If Margarito walks onto a few, he might find himself on his arse. That's just how getting punched in the face works.

i promise you pal, its not easily achieved

like i said in the pac v marg thread, to gain anything more than a couple to 5 maybe pounds of lean muscle a year is a fantastic achievement, anymore is almost unheard of

bodybuilders generally dont build lean muscle after they are 23 years old ish

they bulk and cut, so they gain more than a couple of pounds of muscle in a year, andything upto 10 or 15 pounds but they put on masses of fat as well during a bulk, then they diet and cut the fat

you check out pics of famous bodybuilders off season

Mate, once again you're talking absolute bollocks.

The comment i have highlighted is so stupid, it deserves a special mention. Testosterone levels reach a peak around the mid 20's. After that, they start to slowly decline. That is why it is harder for a person to add muscle mass as they get older. However, to say people don't build lean muscle once they're about 23 is absolute tosh.

You don't need to promise me anything. I suggest you take the time to read through a Sport's Nutrition textbook, or read the carbohydrate section of the Sport's Nutrition Bible, which is authored by me, in the training section of this very site.

Getting back to Pacquiao. His natural weight, or his weigh-in weight has increased by around 15lbs, in 4 years. Once again, that isn't unrealistic for an athlete who is consuming 8,000 cals per day. It's also worth mentioning that the higher he goes up in weight, the less he has to deplete himself before the weigh-in. So a Pacquiao weighing at 129 isn't really a true reflection of his actual weight because he will have more han likely have been dehydrated, wheras for a fight at Welterweight, he can actually afford to be hydrated and he can afford for his muscle glycogen stores to be close to being fully loaded. This in itself will account for around 6 or 7lbs.

Like i said, he's done nothing that's even remotely out of the ordinary here.

But please, carry on with your cliched nonsense

dude, people do build lean muscle but not at a very fast rate and the bit of my text you have highlighted is absolutely true

even those on steriods dont build lean muscle for most of the year, they bulk like nattys because thats the best way to add muscle

man, i am right sorry

and back to pac, 15lbs in 4 years isnt unrealistic, 8000 calories a day is pretty far fetched especially without putting on any fat

i am eating 3500 - 4500 (at a push) at the minute, 5-6 meals a day all clean high calories meals, i am 16 stone (a lot bigger than pac), that is including the best meal replacement/weight gain suppliments - it very very difficult to keep it going, i have to have a day off a week where i eat around 2500 cals, some days i am almost making myself sick

I train hard, i am gaining a lot of fat as well as muscle (hopefully)

what you are suggesting pac has done, is pretty high in the sky

8000 calories a day for an athlete who is training for 3-5 hours per day isn't far fetched. You're gaining a lot of fat because you don't have anywhere the same activity level as Pacquiao has. You clearly don't have the activity level to support your current energy intake.

The bit where you said people over 23 don't build lean muscle isn't true. It's not true in any way shape or form. I don't understand the bit about bodybuilders taking steroids, but bulking like 'natty's. Do you mean, even steroid using bodybuilders have to increase calories intake just like a regular natural bodybuilder? If so, of course they do. That's because there is a science to putting on lean muscle. You seem to hinting at the notion that bodybuilders rely on steroids because they have exhausted all other avenues. In my experience, this is far from true.

It seems like you are arguing over a redundant point which has been peddled by some idiot who's trying to justify his own steroid cycle, over on a bodybuilding site.

[erics44]

8000 calories a day for an athlete who is training for 3-5 hours per day isn't far fetched. You're gaining a lot of fat because you don't have anywhere the same activity level as Pacquiao has. You clearly don't have the activity level to support your current energy intake.

The bit where you said people over 23 don't build lean muscle isn't true. It's not true in any way shape or form. I don't understand the bit about bodybuilders taking steroids, but bulking like 'natty's. Do you mean, even steroid using bodybuilders have to increase calories intake just like a regular natural bodybuilder? If so, of course they do. That's because there is a science to putting on lean muscle. You seem to hinting at the notion that bodybuilders rely on steroids because they have exhausted all other avenues. In my experience, this is far from true.

It seems like you are arguing over a redundant point which has been peddled by some idiot who's trying to justify his own steroid cycle, over on a bodybuilding site.

i didnt say over 23s dont put on lean muscle, i said it becomes very difficult, very quickly as you get over that age, obviously it depends on the person, some sooner others later

say at 26, 27, 28 or 29 to put on anymore than 5lbs of lean muscle a year would be very difficult and there is no way you would put lean muscle on eating 8000 calories a day when you are 10 stone

i never said bodybuilders rely on steriods (please point out where i did if i did) i said both steriod users and nattys use the same methods, eat over 2500 calories a day and put on fat as well as muscle

dude eating 8000 calories is unrealistic for anyone, especially someone of 10 stone, do you know how much food that is? the only way i can think of doing it would be on a liquid diet, and it would be pointless anyway, eating all that and training so much, they would kind of offset each other

www.uk-muscle.co.uk is full of competing bodybuilders, some who bodybuild for a living and most who make it their sole purpose in life, start a thread called - could you put on lean muscle eating 8000 calories a day at 10 stone - and see what the response is, argue it is manny pac you are talking about, and see if you get any further

[JazMerkin]

Bodybuilding & boxing have very different needs so putting on 'bulk' for either is a very different proposition. For example, most bodybuilders tend to burn all the fat that they can for events, whereas as a boxer you want to have some fat to fall back on because otherwise you become too weak. What Manny Pacquiao has done physically is different, but that alone is not enough to judge him. The only thing in that regard that sticks out a bit for me is that his power appeared to plateau a bit at 130, yet since moving up it's that much more explosive. Even with the lack of drain, it's still odd that he looks a more explosive puncher (not power, guys like Hearns & Robinson have carried the power up, but they've looked to lose that explosiveness with it). But, to me, that is no indicator of guilt.

What does make me doubt him is the tests. It's the fact he wanted notifications of when the tests would be. PSL's point about the PBF-Mosley testing stopping 18 days before is neither here nor there. The point was the fighters knew they could be tested & were probably expecting it. The thing that really makes me doubt it is what I hear from people in the sport themselves. What guys even very close to Pac say privately is very different from what they say publically.

But, they'll make the fight next year & this will all be forgotten.

N.B. Jones is not a good analogy when trying to proclaim Pacquiao's innocence. Most in or around the sport believe that he had some interesting 'supplements' when moving up the Light-Heavy.