Now some time has passed.. Your final vote on Pac's refusal...

[Master]

I was hugely disappointed with Pac Man and as an athlete their is a presumption that if you do not take the test then you are at least not guilty which is why many sportsmen are punished. However he had agreed to fight Floyd later on in the year and I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Hornfinger]

8000 calories a day for an athlete who is training for 3-5 hours per day isn't far fetched. You're gaining a lot of fat because you don't have anywhere the same activity level as Pacquiao has. You clearly don't have the activity level to support your current energy intake.

The bit where you said people over 23 don't build lean muscle isn't true. It's not true in any way shape or form. I don't understand the bit about bodybuilders taking steroids, but bulking like 'natty's. Do you mean, even steroid using bodybuilders have to increase calories intake just like a regular natural bodybuilder? If so, of course they do. That's because there is a science to putting on lean muscle. You seem to hinting at the notion that bodybuilders rely on steroids because they have exhausted all other avenues. In my experience, this is far from true.

It seems like you are arguing over a redundant point which has been peddled by some idiot who's trying to justify his own steroid cycle, over on a bodybuilding site.

i didnt say over 23s dont put on lean muscle, i said it becomes very difficult, very quickly as you get over that age, obviously it depends on the person, some sooner others later

say at 26, 27, 28 or 29 to put on anymore than 5lbs of lean muscle a year would be very difficult and there is no way you would put lean muscle on eating 8000 calories a day when you are 10 stone

i never said bodybuilders rely on steriods (please point out where i did if i did) i said both steriod users and nattys use the same methods, eat over 2500 calories a day and put on fat as well as muscle

dude eating 8000 calories is unrealistic for anyone, especially someone of 10 stone, do you know how much food that is? the only way i can think of doing it would be on a liquid diet, and it would be pointless anyway, eating all that and training so much, they would kind of offset each other

www.uk-muscle.co.uk is full of competing bodybuilders, some who bodybuild for a living and most who make it their sole purpose in life, start a thread called - could you put on lean muscle eating 8000 calories a day at 10 stone - and see what the response is, argue it is manny pac you are talking about, and see if you get any further

You said over 23's don't generally put on lean muscle.

"The second part of Ariza’s training module involves extremely high caloric intake. He has Pacquiao consuming over 7000 calories of food per day, alternating between high protein solid foods and then liquid protein shakes. Pacquiao is forced to eat at least every two hours, whether he’s hungry or not. Contrary to the myth that Pacquiao enjoys fighting at higher weights because he can eat all he wants, Ariza says the constant consumption of food actually gets to the fighter, even if he’s eating his favorite Filipino dishes."

This is taken from an interview with Pacquiao's nutritionist and the full article is on this site

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...gime-diet.html

He doesn't give an exact figure but he mentions that it is above 7,000 cals, so for arguments sake let's settle on 7,000.

He has to eat that much because if he went much lower, he wouldn't eat enough to meet his energy requirements. His energy requirements are so high because he undertakes a very vigorous training camp.

You keep mentioning that he can't possibly put on lean muscle when his calories are so high and when he's naturally so small. I'll try and explain it differently to you mate...

If he's consuming 7,000 calories per day day, but burning off 6,500 that's an aggregate of 500 calories. Now that is the same as you consuming 2,500 and burning off 2,000. The only difference is, Manny's activity level is much much higher than yours, so he needs to up his calorie intake to compensate for it. If he didn't, he wouldn't be able to maintain his existing weight, let alone put on weight.

Are you with me so far?

Quick recap....he has to consume more calories than he is burning off. So that's why it's above 7,000. From that information you can gather he is burning around 6,000 - 6,500 calories per day through training camp.


Edit: As for his weight gain, i posted pictures of 'tale of the tapes' from his fight with Morales right up until his fight with Clottey. His weight come fight night only showed a 5lb differential. Inn other words, even at Super-Featherweight against Morales in 06, Manny weighed 144lbs on the night of the fight. Against Clottey in 2010 he weighed 149lbs. People tend to ignore this when pointing out he has moved up several divisions, but it's unfair to do so. His fight night weight is his more natural weight. His weigh-in weight will vary depending on the level of dehydration and muscle glycogen depletion. So in real terms, he's actually only 5lb heavier than he was 4 years ago.

you need to keep callories to put on muscle dude

im telling you, what you are explaining a person wouldnt put on any muscle at all

they would be extremely fit, but they wouldnt gain muscle

if you are eating 7000 callories and burning 6500 with this training routine you would struggle to maintain your weight

if this was posible then every bodybuilder in the world would be doing it

This once again makes no sense whatsoever. If he's burning 6,500 calories per day (i never once said his training routine was responsible for burning 6,500 cals - i estimated that that's the amount of calories he is burning off per day) and he's consuming over 7,000 he will carry over at least 500 calories. Combined with muscle building exercises this will provide a platform for him to add lean muscle mass. I really don't know how to make it any clearer. I know plenty of athletes who aim to put on muscle by consuming around 500 calories more than they burn off per day.

I don't understand your brain.

Nope.

The average male will burn 2000 calories a day when doing absolutely nothing. It's called BMR. Base metabolic rate. It's what your body needs in order to servive and function without losing any weight (muscle or fat)

If someone was to burn 6000 calories in the gym they would then need to consume at least another 2000 calories on top of that (meaning an intake of 8000 a day) to maintain weight other wise the body would start to eat muscle. To gain lean muscle you must then increase protein intake (which would be more calories. Weight lifting will only add lean muscle if the diet will provide the building blocks to do so.

[Master]

Are you two still at it, kiss and make up.

[Violent Demise]

Pacneedle's refusal to tests that Mayweather himself was willingly to take showed he's dirty. His acceptance of the same deal 8 months later proves without a doubt he's dirty. Why all of a sudden accept the same terms and conditions just like that? Why not accept them 8 months prior? Answer is obvious. He was dirty as fuck and spend the past 8 months completely cleaning out his system.

[Hornfinger]

Pacneedle's refusal to tests that Mayweather himself was willingly to take showed he's dirty. His acceptance of the same deal 8 months later proves without a doubt he's dirty. Why all of a sudden accept the same terms and conditions just like that? Why not accept them 8 months prior? Answer is obvious. He was dirty as fuck and spend the past 8 months completely cleaning out his system.

Yup! 110% agree with that.

[Violent Demise]

Pacneedle's refusal to tests that Mayweather himself was willingly to take showed he's dirty. His acceptance of the same deal 8 months later proves without a doubt he's dirty. Why all of a sudden accept the same terms and conditions just like that? Why not accept them 8 months prior? Answer is obvious. He was dirty as fuck and spend the past 8 months completely cleaning out his system.

Yup! 110% agree with that.

That's cuz your not blinded by lust. It's one thing for these groupies to defend there fighter and make excuses for him. But come on. Don't embarrass yourself and make yourself look like a bigger idiot than people already know you are by continuing to defend him on something so fucking obvious. Am I missing something? When did it become cool to be stupid? How can people not see what's so fucking obvious? As the forums biggest Manny Pacquiao fan, I can see it. How can these lesser fans not?

[Hornfinger]

I was also sensible enough to read the USADA website mate

[ono]

8000 calories a day for an athlete who is training for 3-5 hours per day isn't far fetched. You're gaining a lot of fat because you don't have anywhere the same activity level as Pacquiao has. You clearly don't have the activity level to support your current energy intake.

The bit where you said people over 23 don't build lean muscle isn't true. It's not true in any way shape or form. I don't understand the bit about bodybuilders taking steroids, but bulking like 'natty's. Do you mean, even steroid using bodybuilders have to increase calories intake just like a regular natural bodybuilder? If so, of course they do. That's because there is a science to putting on lean muscle. You seem to hinting at the notion that bodybuilders rely on steroids because they have exhausted all other avenues. In my experience, this is far from true.

It seems like you are arguing over a redundant point which has been peddled by some idiot who's trying to justify his own steroid cycle, over on a bodybuilding site.

i didnt say over 23s dont put on lean muscle, i said it becomes very difficult, very quickly as you get over that age, obviously it depends on the person, some sooner others later

say at 26, 27, 28 or 29 to put on anymore than 5lbs of lean muscle a year would be very difficult and there is no way you would put lean muscle on eating 8000 calories a day when you are 10 stone

i never said bodybuilders rely on steriods (please point out where i did if i did) i said both steriod users and nattys use the same methods, eat over 2500 calories a day and put on fat as well as muscle

dude eating 8000 calories is unrealistic for anyone, especially someone of 10 stone, do you know how much food that is? the only way i can think of doing it would be on a liquid diet, and it would be pointless anyway, eating all that and training so much, they would kind of offset each other

www.uk-muscle.co.uk is full of competing bodybuilders, some who bodybuild for a living and most who make it their sole purpose in life, start a thread called - could you put on lean muscle eating 8000 calories a day at 10 stone - and see what the response is, argue it is manny pac you are talking about, and see if you get any further

You said over 23's don't generally put on lean muscle.

"The second part of Ariza’s training module involves extremely high caloric intake. He has Pacquiao consuming over 7000 calories of food per day, alternating between high protein solid foods and then liquid protein shakes. Pacquiao is forced to eat at least every two hours, whether he’s hungry or not. Contrary to the myth that Pacquiao enjoys fighting at higher weights because he can eat all he wants, Ariza says the constant consumption of food actually gets to the fighter, even if he’s eating his favorite Filipino dishes."

This is taken from an interview with Pacquiao's nutritionist and the full article is on this site

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...gime-diet.html

He doesn't give an exact figure but he mentions that it is above 7,000 cals, so for arguments sake let's settle on 7,000.

He has to eat that much because if he went much lower, he wouldn't eat enough to meet his energy requirements. His energy requirements are so high because he undertakes a very vigorous training camp.

You keep mentioning that he can't possibly put on lean muscle when his calories are so high and when he's naturally so small. I'll try and explain it differently to you mate...

If he's consuming 7,000 calories per day day, but burning off 6,500 that's an aggregate of 500 calories. Now that is the same as you consuming 2,500 and burning off 2,000. The only difference is, Manny's activity level is much much higher than yours, so he needs to up his calorie intake to compensate for it. If he didn't, he wouldn't be able to maintain his existing weight, let alone put on weight.

Are you with me so far?

Quick recap....he has to consume more calories than he is burning off. So that's why it's above 7,000. From that information you can gather he is burning around 6,000 - 6,500 calories per day through training camp.


Edit: As for his weight gain, i posted pictures of 'tale of the tapes' from his fight with Morales right up until his fight with Clottey. His weight come fight night only showed a 5lb differential. Inn other words, even at Super-Featherweight against Morales in 06, Manny weighed 144lbs on the night of the fight. Against Clottey in 2010 he weighed 149lbs. People tend to ignore this when pointing out he has moved up several divisions, but it's unfair to do so. His fight night weight is his more natural weight. His weigh-in weight will vary depending on the level of dehydration and muscle glycogen depletion. So in real terms, he's actually only 5lb heavier than he was 4 years ago.

you need to keep callories to put on muscle dude

im telling you, what you are explaining a person wouldnt put on any muscle at all

they would be extremely fit, but they wouldnt gain muscle

if you are eating 7000 callories and burning 6500 with this training routine you would struggle to maintain your weight

if this was posible then every bodybuilder in the world would be doing it

This once again makes no sense whatsoever. If he's burning 6,500 calories per day (i never once said his training routine was responsible for burning 6,500 cals - i estimated that that's the amount of calories he is burning off per day) and he's consuming over 7,000 he will carry over at least 500 calories. Combined with muscle building exercises this will provide a platform for him to add lean muscle mass. I really don't know how to make it any clearer. I know plenty of athletes who aim to put on muscle by consuming around 500 calories more than they burn off per day.

I don't understand your brain.

Nope.

The average male will burn 2000 calories a day when doing absolutely nothing. It's called BMR. Base metabolic rate. It's what your body needs in order to servive and function without losing any weight (muscle or fat)

If someone was to burn 6000 calories in the gym they would then need to consume at least another 2000 calories on top of that (meaning an intake of 8000 a day) to maintain weight other wise the body would start to eat muscle. To gain lean muscle you must then increase protein intake (which would be more calories. Weight lifting will only add lean muscle if the diet will provide the building blocks to do so.

I didn't say anywhere that he burns 6,000 calories during his training session. I said 'in a day' and in fact i went out of my way to point this out in an earlier post. In fact it's in the post that you've quoted.

" If he's burning 6,500 calories per day (i never once said his training routine was responsible for burning 6,500 cals - i estimated that that's the amount of calories he is burning off per day"

[Hornfinger]

8000 calories a day for an athlete who is training for 3-5 hours per day isn't far fetched. You're gaining a lot of fat because you don't have anywhere the same activity level as Pacquiao has. You clearly don't have the activity level to support your current energy intake.

The bit where you said people over 23 don't build lean muscle isn't true. It's not true in any way shape or form. I don't understand the bit about bodybuilders taking steroids, but bulking like 'natty's. Do you mean, even steroid using bodybuilders have to increase calories intake just like a regular natural bodybuilder? If so, of course they do. That's because there is a science to putting on lean muscle. You seem to hinting at the notion that bodybuilders rely on steroids because they have exhausted all other avenues. In my experience, this is far from true.

It seems like you are arguing over a redundant point which has been peddled by some idiot who's trying to justify his own steroid cycle, over on a bodybuilding site.

i didnt say over 23s dont put on lean muscle, i said it becomes very difficult, very quickly as you get over that age, obviously it depends on the person, some sooner others later

say at 26, 27, 28 or 29 to put on anymore than 5lbs of lean muscle a year would be very difficult and there is no way you would put lean muscle on eating 8000 calories a day when you are 10 stone

i never said bodybuilders rely on steriods (please point out where i did if i did) i said both steriod users and nattys use the same methods, eat over 2500 calories a day and put on fat as well as muscle

dude eating 8000 calories is unrealistic for anyone, especially someone of 10 stone, do you know how much food that is? the only way i can think of doing it would be on a liquid diet, and it would be pointless anyway, eating all that and training so much, they would kind of offset each other

www.uk-muscle.co.uk is full of competing bodybuilders, some who bodybuild for a living and most who make it their sole purpose in life, start a thread called - could you put on lean muscle eating 8000 calories a day at 10 stone - and see what the response is, argue it is manny pac you are talking about, and see if you get any further

You said over 23's don't generally put on lean muscle.

"The second part of Ariza’s training module involves extremely high caloric intake. He has Pacquiao consuming over 7000 calories of food per day, alternating between high protein solid foods and then liquid protein shakes. Pacquiao is forced to eat at least every two hours, whether he’s hungry or not. Contrary to the myth that Pacquiao enjoys fighting at higher weights because he can eat all he wants, Ariza says the constant consumption of food actually gets to the fighter, even if he’s eating his favorite Filipino dishes."

This is taken from an interview with Pacquiao's nutritionist and the full article is on this site

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...gime-diet.html

He doesn't give an exact figure but he mentions that it is above 7,000 cals, so for arguments sake let's settle on 7,000.

He has to eat that much because if he went much lower, he wouldn't eat enough to meet his energy requirements. His energy requirements are so high because he undertakes a very vigorous training camp.

You keep mentioning that he can't possibly put on lean muscle when his calories are so high and when he's naturally so small. I'll try and explain it differently to you mate...

If he's consuming 7,000 calories per day day, but burning off 6,500 that's an aggregate of 500 calories. Now that is the same as you consuming 2,500 and burning off 2,000. The only difference is, Manny's activity level is much much higher than yours, so he needs to up his calorie intake to compensate for it. If he didn't, he wouldn't be able to maintain his existing weight, let alone put on weight.

Are you with me so far?

Quick recap....he has to consume more calories than he is burning off. So that's why it's above 7,000. From that information you can gather he is burning around 6,000 - 6,500 calories per day through training camp.


Edit: As for his weight gain, i posted pictures of 'tale of the tapes' from his fight with Morales right up until his fight with Clottey. His weight come fight night only showed a 5lb differential. Inn other words, even at Super-Featherweight against Morales in 06, Manny weighed 144lbs on the night of the fight. Against Clottey in 2010 he weighed 149lbs. People tend to ignore this when pointing out he has moved up several divisions, but it's unfair to do so. His fight night weight is his more natural weight. His weigh-in weight will vary depending on the level of dehydration and muscle glycogen depletion. So in real terms, he's actually only 5lb heavier than he was 4 years ago.

you need to keep callories to put on muscle dude

im telling you, what you are explaining a person wouldnt put on any muscle at all

they would be extremely fit, but they wouldnt gain muscle

if you are eating 7000 callories and burning 6500 with this training routine you would struggle to maintain your weight

if this was posible then every bodybuilder in the world would be doing it

This once again makes no sense whatsoever. If he's burning 6,500 calories per day (i never once said his training routine was responsible for burning 6,500 cals - i estimated that that's the amount of calories he is burning off per day) and he's consuming over 7,000 he will carry over at least 500 calories. Combined with muscle building exercises this will provide a platform for him to add lean muscle mass. I really don't know how to make it any clearer. I know plenty of athletes who aim to put on muscle by consuming around 500 calories more than they burn off per day.

I don't understand your brain.

Nope.

The average male will burn 2000 calories a day when doing absolutely nothing. It's called BMR. Base metabolic rate. It's what your body needs in order to servive and function without losing any weight (muscle or fat)

If someone was to burn 6000 calories in the gym they would then need to consume at least another 2000 calories on top of that (meaning an intake of 8000 a day) to maintain weight other wise the body would start to eat muscle. To gain lean muscle you must then increase protein intake (which would be more calories. Weight lifting will only add lean muscle if the diet will provide the building blocks to do so.

I didn't say anywhere that he burns 6,000 calories during his training session. I said 'in a day' and in fact i went out of my way to point this out in an earlier post. In fact it's in the post that you've quoted.

" If he's burning 6,500 calories per day (i never once said his training routine was responsible for burning 6,500 cals - i estimated that that's the amount of calories he is burning off per day"

ok fair enough. go you.

[miron_lang]

Olympic?

Please correct me. Olympic style testing should be all year round right? so if you go through an OST it should be all year and not 3 months w/c is the duration of a contracted boxing match.

Mosley and Floyd both knew when testing will start and when it will end during their fight because they put a duration and that's not OST. And it defeats the exact purpose of the OST ( all year )


Really? you all missed this?

OST?

[Hornfinger]

Yup Miron you are totally right and I can't disagree. Although shane and floyd did 3 months more testing than pac's ever done....

[miron_lang]

Yup Miron you are totally right and I can't disagree. Although shane and floyd did 3 months more testing than pac's ever done....

So Floyd is offering a testing scheme that is just as Flawed if the participants are expert roider right?


So why did Floyd refuse? I hope you can come up with a logical explanation mate

[InTheNeutralCorner]

In the first Pacquiao-Mayweather negotiation, there was a disagreement with regards to the timing of the blood test. Although my belief is that Floyd did not want to fight Manny and that Manny just did not want to give in to Floyd's demand, I was disappointed with the shit excuses that they came up with. I had wished that Manny called in Mayweather's bluff.

Fast forward to the second negotiation. Pacquiao agreed to the drug test demand of Mayweather. But Floyd did not call Manny's bluff. Why is that? If, as one poster here said, that the gap between the two negotiations gave Manny time to clean his system, then shouldn't that be an easy fight for Mayweather? That would be a great opportunity for Floyd to prove his accusation. When he beats Manny to a pulp, this will be an excellent argument that Manny lost because he has no drugs in his system. But Floyd did not want to fight Manny or call his bluff (probably because he did not think Manny is bluffing). Floyd came up with a shit excuse that he is going on vacation! FLOYD WALKED AWAY FROM AN EASY FIGHT WITH MILLIONS AT STAKE TO GO ON VACATION!!!

So, my assumption is that Floyd really did not want to fight Manny and did not believe that Manny will be any different 'with or without the drugs in his system'. The accuser does not believe his own accusation.

If Manny gets his strenght from some drugs, then he must be crazy to fight Mayweather (a top caliber P4P boxer) without those drugs and be exposed.

My conclusion: Pacquiao is 'clean' until proven otherwise.

[InTheNeutralCorner]

Pacneedle's refusal to tests that Mayweather himself was willingly to take showed he's dirty. His acceptance of the same deal 8 months later proves without a doubt he's dirty. Why all of a sudden accept the same terms and conditions just like that? Why not accept them 8 months prior? Answer is obvious. He was dirty as fuck and spend the past 8 months completely cleaning out his system.

It could be because those same terms and conditions are not being demanded by Mayweather this time around. Those are already out there. It's a clash of egos.

[mnmc10]

In the first Pacquiao-Mayweather negotiation, there was a disagreement with regards to the timing of the blood test. Although my belief is that Floyd did not want to fight Manny and that Manny just did not want to give in to Floyd's demand, I was disappointed with the shit excuses that they came up with. I had wished that Manny called in Mayweather's bluff.

Fast forward to the second negotiation. Pacquiao agreed to the drug test demand of Mayweather. But Floyd did not call Manny's bluff. Why is that? If, as one poster here said, that the gap between the two negotiations gave Manny time to clean his system, then shouldn't that be an easy fight for Mayweather? That would be a great opportunity for Floyd to prove his accusation. When he beats Manny to a pulp, this will be an excellent argument that Manny lost because he has no drugs in his system. But Floyd did not want to fight Manny or call his bluff (probably because he did not think Manny is bluffing). Floyd came up with a shit excuse that he is going on vacation! FLOYD WALKED AWAY FROM AN EASY FIGHT WITH MILLIONS AT STAKE TO GO ON VACATION!!!

So, my assumption is that Floyd really did not want to fight Manny and did not believe that Manny will be any different 'with or without the drugs in his system'. The accuser does not believe his own accusation.

If Manny gets his strenght from some drugs, then he must be crazy to fight Mayweather (a top caliber P4P boxer) without those drugs and be exposed.

My conclusion: Pacquiao is 'clean' until proven otherwise.

AMEN! this is exactly what im thinking.