PULL not PUSH your punches

[HerbM]

...made things clearer...not everything can be explained over a forum ...interested in seeing systema...[is it] all stand up? ...kicks? knees, elbows ...

Yes, Systema has kicks, elbows, head butts, grappling and because it is a combat art it includes knives and guns (defense & attack) Eye gouges & biting, locking, throwing & tripping.

Note: NOT recommending Systema over boxing, just a possibility for using some principles shared by boxing and Systema to improve our boxing (Systema uses every boxing punch.)

Systema is COMBAT (no rules) so includes everything a human body can do (& some things most of us cannot do without serious training and practice), but it is very low on "techniques" which distinguishes it from other "combat arts".

Systema focuses on 4 principles:

1. Breathing (constantly)
2. Relaxing (continuously)
3. Moving (always, even if we are just breathing)
4. Form (restoring, maintaining, improving our balance, stance, and posture)

There is a partially joking "5th" principle: Hitting really hard

Notice a similarity between Systema and boxing in the PRINCIPLES?

Videos are available -- some stuff on YouTube etc, & many long commercial videos too. Right now the Russian Martial Art website (of Systema in North America) has DVDs, e.g. $20-30 instead of $40-60. [You could probably find many of these bootleg on the Internet.]

...snap... i was refering to is the way the guy...hits which takes time to learn and build up the coordination...helps if you know the ideal biomechanical triggers for the strikes your using,
...punch doesnt look snappy because hes keeping his arms more relaxed than they need to be to attempt to get the point across
...lots of starters seem to miss the point of what an actual punch is about and tend to push the bag or pull ...resulting in poor economy of energy ...

All correct. We don't want to "push the bag" because that is actually doing at least one thing wrong and almost always two:

1. Adding force late, AFTER IMPACT (don't add force AFTER the target quits compressing, e.g., the bag is no longer giving but is starting to SWING away from us.)
2. Holding back with the opposing muscles (at any time) -- it FEELS like harder work but gives no benefit and many disadvantages

...see what your saying...agree 100% ...let the target stop the punch ...not overly much...the reverse muscles ...kick in
...lads ive been training have fallen right into the trap of letting the shots go too much, letting the bag fully stop their shot and lazily pulling back and when i tell them about it then they pull back too early...while to build up the coordination/skill required to get the timing right, ...

Right again, except that is NOT "letting go too much" but rather CONTINUING past impact.

We want the target to ABSORB ALL of the MOMENTUM (energy) in the punch at contact, but NOT CONTINUE adding energy/power after that point.

The punch slows on impact naturally & it becomes pushing if we PRESS (or push) into the bag or opponent AFTER FULL IMPACT, at what is now a relatively slow speed.

We want TOTAL relaxation of the OPPOSING muscles until impact and energy transfer, with IMMEDIATE (snap) retraction of those opposing muscles, and COMPLETELY RELAXING the extensor muscles that a moment ago were powering the punch.

Difficult for most people. The harder they punch, the more they resist at the SAME TIME, slowing the punch, removing energy, and using more oxygen and tiring out their muscles quicker.

The best punch may look a little lazy and may feel that way; we are only using HALF the muscles at any moment in time.

The paradox is that using perfect timing and coordination we hit faster and harder, & use less biological energy (energy and oxygen molecules WITHIN the muscles are conserved).

My method to do this with "boxing snap" HAS BEEN to use the IMPACT to signal the switch of the muscle groups -- AT IMPACT I turn off the punch muscles and turn on the opposing muscles. No sooner and no later.

For a jab: TRICEPS ONLY on the way out, BICEPS ONLY on the way back (also deltoids, chest, back etc just keeping it simple.)

So you are right it is FEEL -- Switching "at impact" is probably the best way to explain & train it

The "switch" will never be perfect -- it will take time to signal the muscles, but FEELING the impact as opposed to SEEING, or worse ANTICIPATING, the impact give a very good signal.

By the time we send that signal & start the retraction the target will have allowed the punch to penetrate a few inches so that we will NOT be "surface punching" but will hit to DEPTH. Not to the other side as some people say, but INTO the target.

By then the speed will be near zero on a clean hit & the opposing muscles will have an easy job starting the fist back to guard, WITHOUT having to fight the outgoing energy and WITHOUT removing any of that energy -- the target absorbed & internalized all that momentum. (Whooo--eee!)

When is the "perfect time" to begin the retraction?

When the targets "compressibility" is used up -- when the surface STOPS deforming, maybe an inch or three deep.

For a head this will be a bit smaller due to the hard bones, and for a body shot it will be a bit more (like a water bag.)

Explaining it to boxers this way may not help much, and the method of "feeling the impact as a signal" comes close to getting the timing right.

Also note, if the target it "elastic" (like hitting one of those big Muay Thai pads) it is returning energy to our fist, and although the energy unfortunately doesn't "stay in the target" at least it is now helping us RETRACT our hand at the proper time -- it's bouncing back as our hand starts back.

Getting the timing will make our punches SNAPPY in the boxing sense and keep them from being surface hits (punching AT the target) and from pushing to far or too late.

...and suddenly if they miss...leaves them not off balance but ...theyve missed the que to explode with the reverse muscles back to guard...leaves them with a very counterable shot...

Yes, missing is an issue (with any punch type actually). Boxing and Systema deal with this sometimes the same way and sometimes differently.

Remember that for straight punches we WILL "hit the end" of our joint extension or twisting ability of our hip-back-shoulders etc and so the power WILL be dissipated by our structure.

If we did this at FULL POWER every time shadow boxing we would tear out our joints but doing it at reduced speed or on the occasional full miss (no block) isn't so bad.

For curved punches, i.e., the hook and uppercut, we must have a way to "get them back" WITHOUT STOPPING them BEFORE the target does, and without continuing forever or losing our defensive form.

Generally for hooks we throw them on a spiral curve, tightening the spiral at about the same place as the target SHOULD BE, so that if we miss we are (rapidly) pulling it around and back to guard.

Note that we must practice this so that we 'retract' only just AFTER we would have hit the target, we want the target to stop the punch if that is possible.

If a hook HITS the target it works even better -- the spiral is even tighter right back to guard.

Shadow boxing the hook works well, better in fact than using a partner to stand as a target because with a partner we must STOP THE PUNCH BEFORE impact (really before impact WOULD have occurred.)

I think the hardest to shadow box is the uppercut -- this punch needs to FLY upwards, and even away from out body a bit sometimes, so when it misses we USE GRAVITY to stop it, along with some (late) spiral and unfortunately SOME opposing muscles while it is still traveling.

Shadow boxing an uppercut AT FULL SPEED can cause us to look silly & overextend by punching at the ceiling, or cause us to pull back too early. I am still working on this quite a bit to perfect the timing of firing the muscles (on and off) for a good uppercut.

Im glad i took the time to post...could be quite useful if anyone knows...good ways to train...throw ideas around, ...best way to go is probably through feel...reacting to the feel of landing...maybe add a bit of resistance to the reverse motion...to further outline...through feel which muscles hes actually using as triggers to pull the shot...feel helped them to no end on the inside...couldnt see shots coming but with...contact...much easier for them to react to it seems you can feel when a shot is coming much sooner than you can see one.

I think that is a very good way to train boxers -- it is sort of what I did with myself, but then I was also trying to figure out how to use my Systema without interfering with my boxing and now I know a lot more about that.

Systema has other ways to train it but they don't look much like boxing. Breathing and relaxing drills, even doing push-ups to TIRE out the muscles and make relaxing mandatory.

If you tire the boxer out but still insist on perfect form he MUST do it efficiently to avoid falling down.

Probably the most useful Systema methods (for boxers) go back to the PRINCIPLES, especially RELAXING and BREATHING for this particular training.

Boxing coaches (also Systema and BJJ coaches) CONSTANT tell fighters to "Relax" but seldom explain WHAT to relax.

The boxer cannot "relax everything"; he would FALL DOWN or be unable to hit at all.

You have hit on the WHAT perfectly: Opposing muscles relax going out. Punching muscles relax coming back.

(Easy to say, hard to do, but at least we are now being specific.)

...scrap ...had me doing a little trick that works on this 'feel' with resistance..., i just dont think i realised what it was doing at the time lol, ...

Scrap's a pretty crafty coach.

[WayneFlint]

Good post herb, sounds interesting its a shame i havent heared of any systema in my area it sounds like a good functional form of self defence, so would you say its basically MMA but with no rules? or are the kicking and kneeing techniques done in a systema way or like MMA lean towards using muay thai technique? a long time ago i learnt how to handle knife attacks and things from a TKD instructor ive always wondered how he learned the techniques and what style they belong too because they dont seem like TKD techniques. do you think you could post a video of some systema knife handling drills/wrist locks and stuff?

I forgot to mention in the last post about the guy recieving the punches, what he is doing with his shoulders and knees after he gets hit, how does this help from being winded? is it vital or in time can the technique be used without this movement? i can remember you saying that being winded is basically a muscle contraction and the way around it is to get a good feel of the muscle that spasms to stop it contracting when you get hit and feel it tightening. is that what hes doing?

Also this guy how long has he been training this technique to get to the stage he is at? it seems very useful for boxing but im not sure for street fighting, unless of course he is learning and in time its possible to use the technique without so much effort, a few examples. say he could use the technique while carrying on fighting as usual? moving, punching, grappling? or could he take multiple rapid body shots to the while still using the technique with success without getting caught in the middle of the technique or somthing?, otherwise im thinking in some situations it might be better to abandon the technique choosing to move instead as it seems the technique could keep you in a hole when it could have been a better choice to just move, so it has potential to be a bad habit for boxing i think, depends on the circumstances. he obveousely has to take a moment to recover which isnt ideal for a street fight but much better than being winded, if you are to take a shot, im just thinking to lose mobility and attacking ability for this technique it seems for some single, well timed, series of blows the technique works fine, however for a flurry of strong shots could he use it as effective? is the trade off worth it? (if there is a trade off but it seems like there is or might be from watching the video but maybe that guy was a novice and the technique can be mastered to be used a lot more effectivley) if your boxing its probably better because you can take a knee to recover, anyhow it depends on the ability to take multiple shots otherwise it could at times end up leaving you in a hole? just throwing some questions around as ive got some time on my hands and this thread is getting interesting.

And one last question i think lol, after this guy takes a fair few shots this way would he lose his legs? or would they still be strong? its hard to tell how his body has handled the shots taken because he doesnt move much throughout the video, would he be as strong and coordinated with his legs after this as he was before it? thats my last question lol.

Thanks again for the post herb. interesting stuff.

[HerbM]

Maybe we should start another Systema/Self-Defense thread but if no one minds we can keep going...

...good functional form of self defence,
...[is it] basically MMA but with no rules? or are the kicking and kneeing techniques done in a systema way or like MMA [or] muay thai technique?

Everything is usually done Systema fashion, but since Systema accepts that the attacker can *USE* any technique he wishes, it welcomes people with other backgrounds to try to make those attacks work and give us practice in defending.

Most arts don't do this. For example, they have "crappy punches" and after learning to defend against those, they believe they can stop a good boxer; or they have crappy grappling or kicking and thing they can stop a Muay Thai kicker or BJJ grappler.

Systema students will however modify pretty much everything (including grappling and guns) to work with a relaxed flowing style.

a long time ago i learnt how to handle knife attacks and things from a TKD instructor ive always wondered how he learned the techniques and what style they belong too because they dont seem like TKD techniques. do you think you could post a video of some systema knife handling...?

Systema really has very few techniques as such -- it is working towards being so relaxed that "in the moment" you would INVENT the technique.

There is also one serious issue with the way (many) people PRACTICE and TRAIN Systema that I don't agree with.

Systema focuses a LOT of training time on "slow fighting" (aka "soft work") where your attacker moves slow and you have time to RELAX and PRACTICE finding the counters. This is not an inherent limitation of Systema nor of its actual "training methodology" but only the way some (many?) instructors training it.

I recently became an apprentice instructor in the ICSA (International Combat Systema Association) or "Combat Systema" which emphasized FUNCTIONALIZING everything to work at full speed and against a fully resisting opponent.

Try search for "Ryabko | Wheeler | Vasiliev | Secours knife | disarm" on YouTube -- Mikhail Ryabko is the Russian Master of a main branch of Systema, Vladimir Vasiliev his representative for NA. Martin Wheeler and Kevin Secours are the leading American Systema instructors (in my opinion) -- Kevin formed the ICSA so he is now my sponsor.

My main knife art is AMOK! from Tom Sotis -- AmokCombatives.com or the Tom Sotis WarriorTalk.com forum.

AMOK! uses a teaching methodology that include MORE "full speed, fully resistant" fighting than any other art -- it would be like boxers sparing 50% of their time in the gym. Works for knife because we don't need to clobber each other to "feel the cuts".

I am a trainer of AMOK! under Tom Sotis. Much "knife defense" from various other arts has never been tested at full speed with fully resisting partners -- everything is (again) legal in AMOK! as long as it works FULL BLAST. (AMOK! even used some Systema and BJJ).

I forgot to mention ... the guy recieving the punches, what he is doing with his shoulders and knees after he gets hit, how does this help from being winded? is it vital or in time can the technique be used without this movement? i can remember you saying that being winded is basically a muscle contraction and the way around it is to get a good feel of the muscle that spasms to stop it contracting when you get hit and feel it tightening. is that what hes doing?

Yes, pretty much, but some of these guys may (I haven't rewatched the video) be exaggerating.

Those guys are dissipating the energy that entered their bodies - many of them "wiggle too much" but it helps them at the level of their current training and current ability.

It's actually better to remove that "cramped" or "spasm" feeling by breathing and by using more natural movements, AND EVEN BETTER to just avoid it by not being tense in the first place.

Systema actually teaches "taking hits" which would benefit almost all boxers. You do it primarily through relaxation and breathing -- also movement to avoid "being there". Boxers do SOME of that last (movement) but not all of the methods are taught.

When Sonny hit me I just relaxed and unlocked my hip -- he was hitting me in the SHORT RIBS (back) and that is a hard place to take punches -- didn't even bother me.

These include what would be advanced slipping and explicit methods to "roll with the punch" Anybody ever seen a boxing coach actually TEACH rolling with a punch? Maybe some do it, but I haven't seen it even in videos....

Systema is big on this idea, and actually expect me to be able to take a full force punch in the torso without any damage, mostly by just relaxing and becoming a water bag.

Also this guy how long has he been training...? it seems very useful for boxing but im not sure for street fighting, unless of course he is learning and in time its possible to use the technique without so much effort, a few examples. say he could use the technique while carrying on fighting as usual? moving, punching, grappling? or could he take multiple rapid body shots to the while still using the technique with success without getting caught in the middle of the technique or somthing?,

Don't know how long, but if that is still Sonny Puzalis you are referencing then he is an OLD HAND -- advanced teacher. One of the best.

Vlad has been doing it like that some 20 years. Mikhael Ryabko (the Russian master) grew up doing it from childhood.

Yes to all those methods functionalizing to the street. Certainly for these advance guys. For me, not as much but I am getting there after 2 years of training (and I do believe we can make that training better so it takes less time.)

Remember that I am 58 and Systema is as useful to me in boxing and BJJ just for the RELAXING, MOVING, BREATHING , and Maintaining FORM because I can then keep up with (and sometimes get ahead of) younger and even fitter guys.

I don't tire out as quick because I am more efficient at those key principles. I spar and don't never got tight like most beginners (boxing or BJJ both)

It's is NOT that I am in better shape. I am just burning less oxygen and energy.

And generally, hitting harder and faster too (relaxed) than anyone at my level of experience. (Not claiming to be some big bad guy, just getting progress faster.)

... if you are to take a shot, im just thinking to lose mobility and attacking ability for this technique it seems for some single, well timed, series of blows the technique works fine, however for a flurry of strong shots could he use it as effective? is the trade off worth it? (if there is a trade off but it seems like there is or might be from watching the video but maybe that guy was a novice and the technique can be mastered to be used a lot more effectivley) if your boxing its probably better because you can take a knee to recover, anyhow it depends on the ability to take multiple shots otherwise it could at times end up leaving you in a hole? just throwing some questions around as ive got some time on my hands and this thread is getting interesting.

I don't think there is a trade off -- but when I box I box. I don't look like I am doing Systema -- I have to obey the rules and the rules setup up "boxing technique" to mostly be the most effective way to operate.

I can do a FEW Systema like things (some are even legal), but mostly I am "doing Systema" in the boxing ring (or even at the bag) by USING those principles to make my boxing better.

Systema is after all about principles not technique. Which is how we got into this discussing.

We can take a "boxing punch" and use "Systema principles" (which are really boxing principles too, right) to make the punch stronger, faster, and less tiring.

That's a big advantage.

And one last question i think lol, after this guy takes a fair few shots this way would he lose his legs? or would they still be strong? its hard to tell how his body has handled the shots taken because he doesnt move much throughout the video, would he be as strong and coordinated with his legs after this as he was before it? thats my last question lol.

If he knows what he is doing and makes few mistakes he might not be affected AT ALL -- but if he has "good Systema" he will certainly be affected less than without it.

Not long ago, one of my sparring mates threw a totally LOW BLOW hard at my gut (not my actual groin) -- his me right above the pubic bone HARD in the 'soft part'.

[He didn't mean it, so no big deal]

But the really cool part was that I just NOTICED the blow and how deep it sunk into my belly without even being affected in the least -- in fact I am not sure my buddy even knows he did it, since we just kept going.

Not being MACHO about this -- it isn't that I can endure any blow, but rather that the BLOW DIDN'T MATTER -- it was like getting his with a pillow or a marshmallow.

I was relaxed and nothing got cramped, spasmed, torn, or bruised; he might as well have hit a water bag.

That is another skill boxers need. Most boxers would likely have been bent double for several minutes from that punch.

One thing I have to do to improve my boxing TECHNIQUE is to RESPECT body blows more -- I generally just don't care unless I DECIDE to care because of the "point" or to make sure that if someone hit me even harder I could defend better.

Some of this works for the head (movement away from the punch, relaxed neck, etc) but you can't really "relax your skull or nose", so avoiding the effects of head blows isn't the same but there is a LOT of explicit stuff in Systema for doing that through movement.

Not saying you can hit me in the head with a 2x4 board, but it helps up to a point.

And it is very important if you are attacked by a knife and need to avoid allowing it to PENETRATE.

[HerbM]

Here is some Systema work done af normal speed.

High Speed Systema work
The clip named "Systema work in reality"

It is not showing the power of the punches. Also a lot of the work, especially what I call leg fencing is very subtle if you have never experienced, nor even seen, that.

This is mostly about self-defense, not what Systema can bring to boxing because the RULES of boxing set a CONTEXT for what will and will not work most effectively. Nothing wrong with that, nothing better about that either. It is just the rules.

When I am offering about Systema in relation to boxing is that the benefits will come from using the PRINCIPLES and from understanding through those principles how to improve our punching power, accuracy, and effectiveness -- as well as our ability to avoid and dissipate our opponents punches without being harmed.

Most people will either be highly impressed by the video or dismiss it as irrelevant. Personally, I have mixed feelings about it due to my experience with fighting, both Systema and otherwise.


Systema work in reality

[God.in.my.corner]

That video was pretty sweet Herb. Systema seems basically like Russian Krav Maga... Which would make it equally awesome.

[HerbM]

That video was pretty sweet Herb. Systema seems basically like Russian Krav Maga... Which would make it equally awesome.

In no sense do I wish to diminish your evaluation, so take this as being complimentary to your opinion (not adverse), just reporting things that we have heard many times...

Almost everyone who comes upon Systema and like it finds that it is "just like MY old art" in many ways, this is especially true of Aikido, Krav Maga, and few others.

The deal is that Systema has very few fixed techniques, but is about being in the right place at the best time, and hitting really hard (from there) so it can actually look like ANYTHING (that is a 'set of techniques')

I like Krav Maga so if you think the following sounds critical, please don't take it that way: in my research on Krav Maga I can find very few unifying, underlying principles. Maybe "use extreme violence" (if you must use any violence) and "all blocks are also attacks" (all defense include a counter attack).

Not criticizing just observing and commenting. If you have a Krav Maga background that serves you well it certainly can be enhance by Systema principles and no one would suggest you defer using those skills (no one in Systema says, "You can't do that because it isn't Systema" as long as it works and you can do it while following the principles.)

Oh, and remember I have some issues with (the way) Systema (is trained in many places.)