De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st

[Kev]

Oh and as for abiding by the current rules of a weight class what rules has Manny broken.

As I understand it the rules for fighting for the welterweight title are 'You cannot exceed the maximum weight limit of 147 lbs'.

Where does it say 'You cannot weigh in at 145lbs?'

[generalbulldog]

Bilbo, just out of curiosity. If Nonito Donaire fought bigger guys at catchweights would you be defending him?

[Kev]

Bilbo, just out of curiosity. If Nonito Donaire fought bigger guys at catchweights would you be defending him?

Yes I would! The reason Donaire is so annoying to me is that he has literally fought nobody since beating Vic Darchinyan.

Darchinyan remains the ONLY fighter Donaire has faced who has EVER held a world title belt.

That's ridiculous. He has never fought another world champion, ever past or present since that win 3 or so years ago and yet he has been ranked number 4 in the world p4p by Ring Magazine.

If Donaire was to move up and beat Amir Khan at 138 lbs I would be mightily impressed. If he took on Humberto Soto at 133 lbs again I would be mightlily impressed.

But he doesn't. In fact he represents everything that is bad about sticking to a weight class because there is literally nobody for him to fight. Instead he's been on a diet of bums and nobodies, with the ocassional former title challenger thrown in.

I just don't understand this zealous commitment to the weight classes. What is it people think they are respecting? The belts in boxing aren't worth anything any more in determining who are the best fighters. Do people even know what light middleweight belt Manny Pacquaio holds now? Or what his welterweight belt was?

The weight classes exist as a way to establish who is the best fighters of a particular size. But once we know who they are, they have served that purpose.

Manny does not need a belt, or a particular weight class to be recognised as a true talent and world class boxer. He doesn't need them to make a fight more meaningful or entertaining either.

It's man binding himself with redtape and tradition as he so loves to do.

In a perfect scenario both fighters would weigh their optimum weight. The weight divisions are arbitary. There is no such thing as a 147 lb man or a 154 lb man. We are just people, and can weight various weights according to how much we eat and exercise, and age etc.

Catchweights just free up some of the red tape. They should be embraced if they allow us to see fighters from otherwise seperate weight classes fight each other, but instead people prefer the red tape and a commitment to an imaginary god of weight class integrity.

[miron_lang]

Darchinyan remains the ONLY fighter Donaire has faced who has EVER held a world title belt.

Bilbo

As stated in the other thread. Sydorenko is a former titlist.

[milmascaras1]

sure sidorenko was a world champion once upon a time but he's tiny compared to donaire, he's 34 years old and he had only had two fights in the last 2 1/2 years before fighting donaire. again, he was the perfect opponent to make donaire look good. also the perfect opponent to hype up the montiel fight.

[generalbulldog]

sure sidorenko was a world champion once upon a time but he's tiny compared to donaire, he's 34 years old and he had only had two fights in the last 2 1/2 years before fighting donaire. again, he was the perfect opponent to make donaire look good. also the perfect opponent to hype up the montiel fight.

To be fair, although the guy Donaire fought looks much smaller than him, the guy Donaire beat was a career bantamweight and this was Donaire's 1st fight in the division. There are no height divisions in boxing but weight divisions.

[milmascaras1]

general,

so you don't think sidorenko was handpicked to make donaire look good? are you eff'ing kidding me? look, the guy was old, slow, small, and he hit as hard as a minimumweight. OF COURSE sidorenko was handpicked. do you think arum was going to risk a montiel fight against a dangerous opponent? come on dude, quit drinking that damned kool-aid and you'll be fine.

[killersheep]

Oh and as for abiding by the current rules of a weight class what rules has Manny broken.

As I understand it the rules for fighting for the welterweight title are 'You cannot exceed the maximum weight limit of 147 lbs'.

Where does it say 'You cannot weigh in at 145lbs?'

As far as the titles go you are absolutely correct, and as far as the sanctioning bodies go, as long as they profit they will let go whatever happens, catchweights and whatever else keeps them profitable. But what are the weightclasses there for? Do you consider Manny to be a Light middleweight fighter? Why should a light middleweight fighter take away the advantage he enjoys himself to accommadate his move, the only real answer of course is money. There are established weight classes intact to keep fighters up against fighters that are relatively close to their own weight, if someone chooses give up that advantage by moving up in weight that is there perogative, but it is unfair to amend the rules as they apply to the other fighter.

As I said before I am all for same day weigh-ins, but they will never happen because of money.

I am also strongly against catchweights, especially in regards to title fights, but they will never go away because of money.

I believe I understand what you are saying, I just believe that weight classes (and there are too many anyway) should be respected and if someone moves up that is their choice to take on the disadvantage of the nature of that weight class, even if it means being outweighed by 20 lbs on the night of the fight. It's my personal take that as far as private contracts go, there should only be the option to choose a weight class to contract in, not to create a weight class.

From what I understand in your view all weights fall within a weight class and are therefore valid, and that any fighter that is moving up in weight should make the fighter naturally in that weight class to come down to accommadate that lighter fighter so it is closer in weight and therefore a more level playing field. Is that correct?

[Kev]

Oh and as for abiding by the current rules of a weight class what rules has Manny broken.

As I understand it the rules for fighting for the welterweight title are 'You cannot exceed the maximum weight limit of 147 lbs'.

Where does it say 'You cannot weigh in at 145lbs?'

As far as the titles go you are absolutely correct, and as far as the sanctioning bodies go, as long as they profit they will let go whatever happens, catchweights and whatever else keeps them profitable. But what are the weightclasses there for? Do you consider Manny to be a Light middleweight fighter? Why should a light middleweight fighter take away the advantage he enjoys himself to accommadate his move, the only real answer of course is money. There are established weight classes intact to keep fighters up against fighters that are relatively close to their own weight, if someone chooses give up that advantage by moving up in weight that is there perogative, but it is unfair to amend the rules as they apply to the other fighter.

As I said before I am all for same day weigh-ins, but they will never happen because of money.

I am also strongly against catchweights, especially in regards to title fights, but they will never go away because of money.

I believe I understand what you are saying, I just believe that weight classes (and there are too many anyway) should be respected and if someone moves up that is their choice to take on the disadvantage of the nature of that weight class, even if it means being outweighed by 20 lbs on the night of the fight. It's my personal take that as far as private contracts go, there should only be the option to choose a weight class to contract in, not to create a weight class.

From what I understand in your view all weights fall within a weight class and are therefore valid, and that any fighter that is moving up in weight should make the fighter naturally in that weight class to come down to accommadate that lighter fighter so it is closer in weight and therefore a more level playing field. Is that correct?

In answer to the part bolded. No not at all. I don't consider him a fighter of any weight, I just consider him an exceptional fighter.

For me weight doesn't define a fighter their ability and skills do.

Weight divisions were brought in because otherwise boxing would be like basketball, you would have to be 200 + pounds and over 6 ft tall to be able to compete at the highest level.

They exist to allow smaller fighters to make a name for themselves against fighters of the same size as them. But the weight divisions are not ideal. I mean in a perfect world, size would have no bearing on a fight and everybody would fight everybody. They only exist to solve the problem, namely that people are different sizes. There is no reason for weight classes to exist beyond that, they have no intrinsic value above and beyond that specific purpose.

You wouldn't introduce weight classes into soccer or tennis, because they are not necessary in such sports. What I am trying to demonstrate, is that weight classes exist only to serve boxing and organise fighters into broad size groups, rather than boxers existing to populate and bring honour to the weight categories. Does that make sense?

So, in my opinon, when a fighter dominates his own weight class, or natural weight classes, as Manny has done, and then wants to take bigger risks and fight fighters outside of his weight class, he is to a certain extent transcending the weight division limitations.

Manny has dominated the flyweight-super featherweight divisions. Already in those weight classes alone, he was a Hall of Fame worthy competitor and a legend of the lower weights.

Now he's gone beyond that. He's truly a global phenomenon and isdoing what nobody else in the modern era has ever done in moving up and fighting massively bigger guys than himself, and dominating them.

I honestly don't give a shit about what weight class he fights in. All I want is for him to fight the biggest fights against the best oppositon. Provided they are not weight drained and unable to perform (and there is zero evidence to suggest either Cotto or Margarito was weight drained) then I am happy for them to fight, because to me boxing is about the fights, and the fighters themselves, and not some commitment to arbitary weight class limits.