Did Pac reach his prime above or below lightweight?

[generalbulldog]

I don't think milmascaras is an idiot. He is extreme, but amongst the bombast I do see some valid points being made.

I think Manny is in his prime at the higher weights as he isn't needing to boil down so much. We saw in the second Barrera fight how lethargic he looked, but that fight was also down to Barrera being unwilling to engage. We also saw Morales outbox him first time out and IMO Marquez had his number twice.

Pac has been far more impressive at the higher weights, but there is a degree of smoke and mirrors involved and some people have been getting high on the fumes. Manny is impressive for sure, but there are still question marks. Why not go after Mosley 2 years ago instead of Clottey, Cotto and then Margarito? Instead each of the previous opponents was coming off of a loss and in the cases of the later two, they were devastating losses. Where are the unbeaten fighters in their prime? There simply aren't any. They have been picking very carefully.

Good question! Where are they indeed? Do you have any names of these undefeated fighters in their prime that Manny has been avoiding at welterweight?

I can only think of Berto, but the Pac haters on here have already dismissed this as a gimme fight for Manny. So which unbeaten welterweight fighters are you thinking he dodged?

Word is that Pacquiao dodged Juan Diaz(when undefeated) and Valero at 135, Bradley and Alexander at 140 and of course Berto and Mayweather at 147 and Chris John at 126.

Other defeated fighters he ducked would be Raheem, JMM, Casamayor, Nate Campbell, Shane Mosley (before his fight with Floyd), Michael Katsidis, Ali Funeka, Marcos Maidana, Ortiz, Peterson, Paul Williams and now Sergio Martinez.

That is all.

You know I agree with you on that to a point. But dodging them is hardly the right word.

After dominating the smaller divisions he decided to move up for the megafights. En route to the welterweight division he had an inbetween fight against David Diaz to pick up another belt before the Oscar fight.

Sure he wasn't the best opposition, but at that time Manny wasn't interested in conquering the lightweight division he was headed for Oscar, and then beyond that the big sharks at 147 where all the action was.

Surely you can't expect a fighter to move through 10 weight classes AND fight all the best fighters in every division? That's completely unreasonable. They can only fight maybe 3 times a year and a career does not last long. Manny hasn't dodged anybody, he has gone for the biggest fights, both in terms of events and paydays.

If Juan Diaz and Edwin Valero were big name box office fighters and considered the stars of the sport, you can be certain he would have fought them.

As for dodging Paul Williams and Sergio Martinez that is just absurd. What about Lucian Bute claiming he is number one at 168 and yet refusing to fight Thomas Adamek and David Haye? Or Sergio Martinez dodging Andre Ward?

I didn't say it or agree with it, just that word that Pac ducks those fighters. And I agree with you no one can fight every Tom, Dick, or Harry. Do I believe he ducked them? Of course not. And now we have Bernard Hopkins saying that he ducks African-American fighters that are slick.

[Kev]

I don't think milmascaras is an idiot. He is extreme, but amongst the bombast I do see some valid points being made.

I think Manny is in his prime at the higher weights as he isn't needing to boil down so much. We saw in the second Barrera fight how lethargic he looked, but that fight was also down to Barrera being unwilling to engage. We also saw Morales outbox him first time out and IMO Marquez had his number twice.

Pac has been far more impressive at the higher weights, but there is a degree of smoke and mirrors involved and some people have been getting high on the fumes. Manny is impressive for sure, but there are still question marks. Why not go after Mosley 2 years ago instead of Clottey, Cotto and then Margarito? Instead each of the previous opponents was coming off of a loss and in the cases of the later two, they were devastating losses. Where are the unbeaten fighters in their prime? There simply aren't any. They have been picking very carefully.

Good question! Where are they indeed? Do you have any names of these undefeated fighters in their prime that Manny has been avoiding at welterweight?

I can only think of Berto, but the Pac haters on here have already dismissed this as a gimme fight for Manny. So which unbeaten welterweight fighters are you thinking he dodged?

Word is that Pacquiao dodged Juan Diaz(when undefeated) and Valero at 135, Bradley and Alexander at 140 and of course Berto and Mayweather at 147 and Chris John at 126.

Other defeated fighters he ducked would be Raheem, JMM, Casamayor, Nate Campbell, Shane Mosley (before his fight with Floyd), Michael Katsidis, Ali Funeka, Marcos Maidana, Ortiz, Peterson, Paul Williams and now Sergio Martinez.

That is all.

You know I agree with you on that to a point. But dodging them is hardly the right word.

After dominating the smaller divisions he decided to move up for the megafights. En route to the welterweight division he had an inbetween fight against David Diaz to pick up another belt before the Oscar fight.

Sure he wasn't the best opposition, but at that time Manny wasn't interested in conquering the lightweight division he was headed for Oscar, and then beyond that the big sharks at 147 where all the action was.

Surely you can't expect a fighter to move through 10 weight classes AND fight all the best fighters in every division? That's completely unreasonable. They can only fight maybe 3 times a year and a career does not last long. Manny hasn't dodged anybody, he has gone for the biggest fights, both in terms of events and paydays.

If Juan Diaz and Edwin Valero were big name box office fighters and considered the stars of the sport, you can be certain he would have fought them.

As for dodging Paul Williams and Sergio Martinez that is just absurd. What about Lucian Bute claiming he is number one at 168 and yet refusing to fight Thomas Adamek and David Haye? Or Sergio Martinez dodging Andre Ward?

I didn't say it or agree with it, just that word that Pac ducks those fighters. And I agree with you no one can fight every Tom, Dick, or Harry. Do I believe he ducked them? Of course not. And now we have Bernard Hopkins saying that he ducks African-American fighters that are slick.

Yeah, the people who hate him choose to, and will never be impressed with him whatever he does. If he moved up to 160 and beat Artur Abraham coming down they would dismiss it and say Abraham was coming off two onesided losses which showed he was useless and that he was drained by coming back down to his former division.

I have no doubt that Miles would create an angry posting expressing his rage that Pacman keeps picking on the weak and avoiding the legitimate challenges like Jean Pascal.

[milmascaras1]

everyone is impressed with pacquiao! what do you want everyone to do? anoint him as the GOAT? he's not the only boxer who is great FYI. there are other great boxers worthy of praise as well. quit crying about everyone not giving him the respect and praise he deserves because i think he gets plenty of that. the only thing people are saying is he has been matched up very carefully and i don't think you can deny this. now you pacquiao fans are starting to justify why he should fight a washed up mosley instead of a little lightweight who schooled pacquiao twice. it seems like pacquiao had enough of marquez counterpunches and doesn't want anymore. he knows if marquez beats him it will expose him as a fraud.

[Julius Rain]

everyone is impressed with pacquiao! what do you want everyone to do? anoint him as the GOAT? he's not the only boxer who is great FYI. there are other great boxers worthy of praise as well. quit crying about everyone not giving him the respect and praise he deserves because i think he gets plenty of that. the only thing people are saying is he has been matched up very carefully and i don't think you can deny this. now you pacquiao fans are starting to justify why he should fight a washed up mosley instead of a little lightweight who schooled pacquiao twice. it seems like pacquiao had enough of marquez counterpunches and doesn't want anymore. he knows if marquez beats him it will expose him as a fraud.

After two close fights with JMM, Pac is suddenly a fraud if he loses the third?

No wonder people call you an idiot

[milmascaras1]

rain,

let me ask you a serious question. why is it that when pacquiao KO'd morales in their rematch, he agreed to give him a third fight? i mean, most everyone knew the same thing would happen in their third fight, right? but with marquez, because of the two times marquez made him see the devil, all of the sudden, two fights is enough with marquez? the reason why he took the morales trilogy was because he knew morales was seriously on the downside, having major problems making weight and his punch resistance wasn't as good anymore.

you know, throughout history, whenever a fighter like pacquiao wins a world title controversially the way he did with marquez at super featherweight, most true champions would grant the ex-champion a rematch. marquez gave pacquiao the opportunity to fight for his title so why wouldn't pacquiao do the same for marquez?

i think this is total bullshit and most real boxing fans would agree with me. on this website however, justification as to why pacquiao shouldn't fight marquez a third time are rampant.

pacquiao's excuses are already growing old. but instead he tries to justify a match with a totally washed up mosley? boxing fans all over the world are beginning to see just what kind of a fraud pacquiao and his team are. taking fights with bigger, washed up guys is supposed to propel pacquiao
to GOAT status? this is one fan who refuses to drink the Kool-Aid even though it's plain clear that Kool-Aid has been spiked with pactardism.

[InTheNeutralCorner]

rain,

let me ask you a serious question. why is it that when pacquiao KO'd morales in their rematch, he agreed to give him a third fight? i mean, most everyone knew the same thing would happen in their third fight, right? but with marquez, because of the two times marquez made him see the devil, all of the sudden, two fights is enough with marquez? the reason why he took the morales trilogy was because he knew morales was seriously on the downside, having major problems making weight and his punch resistance wasn't as good anymore.

you know, throughout history, whenever a fighter like pacquiao wins a world title controversially the way he did with marquez at super featherweight, most true champions would grant the ex-champion a rematch. marquez gave pacquiao the opportunity to fight for his title so why wouldn't pacquiao do the same for marquez?

i think this is total bullshit and most real boxing fans would agree with me. on this website however, justification as to why pacquiao shouldn't fight marquez a third time are rampant.

pacquiao's excuses are already growing old. but instead he tries to justify a match with a totally washed up mosley? boxing fans all over the world are beginning to see just what kind of a fraud pacquiao and his team are. taking fights with bigger, washed up guys is supposed to propel pacquiao
to GOAT status? this is one fan who refuses to drink the Kool-Aid even though it's plain clear that Kool-Aid has been spiked with pactardism.

I think you are the one who is mistaken with your history. After their first fight which ended in a draw (erroneously since one of the judges admitted to making a mistake in his scoring in favor of JMM) thereby JMM got to keep his title, he refused to fight Pacquiao for an immediate rematch. It took a while before they get to have their second fight and you expected Manny to give him an immediate rematch. JMM made Manny wait for the second rematch, so it was time for him to wait for a third rematch. He was given the opportunity in January but he priced himself out by asking for 50/50. Since Pacquiao is the star, when JMM is given the opportunity to fight him, he should grab it immediately and not bitch about it later.

You make it appear here that Manny has already chosen an opponent. As you can see from this forum, there are also a number of posters who prefers Manny to fight Mosley and they are not even Pacquiao fans. For the record, I prefer Manny to fight JMM instead of Mosley so that we can put the question as to who is the better of them to rest.

You expressed here the opinions of boxing fans all over the world. How many boxing fans are there all over the world and how many of them have you spoken to?

And I am a Pac-hater but I would rather drink their Kool-Aid than JMM's piss.

[milmascaras1]

neutral,

by the sound of it, seems like you're a big pacquiao ass licker too!

[CutMeMick]

Alright I think you guys have had enough fun with the disrespects...

Time to tone it down and move along.
Debate respectfully or go do it somewhere else.

Thanks.

[Addicted to_boxing]

I don't think milmascaras is an idiot. He is extreme, but amongst the bombast I do see some valid points being made.

I think Manny is in his prime at the higher weights as he isn't needing to boil down so much. We saw in the second Barrera fight how lethargic he looked, but that fight was also down to Barrera being unwilling to engage. We also saw Morales outbox him first time out and IMO Marquez had his number twice.

Pac has been far more impressive at the higher weights, but there is a degree of smoke and mirrors involved and some people have been getting high on the fumes. Manny is impressive for sure, but there are still question marks. Why not go after Mosley 2 years ago instead of Clottey, Cotto and then Margarito? Instead each of the previous opponents was coming off of a loss and in the cases of the later two, they were devastating losses. Where are the unbeaten fighters in their prime? There simply aren't any. They have been picking very carefully.

Good question! Where are they indeed? Do you have any names of these undefeated fighters in their prime that Manny has been avoiding at welterweight?

I can only think of Berto, but the Pac haters on here have already dismissed this as a gimme fight for Manny. So which unbeaten welterweight fighters are you thinking he dodged?

Word is that Pacquiao dodged Juan Diaz(when undefeated) and Valero at 135, Bradley and Alexander at 140 and of course Berto and Mayweather at 147 and Chris John at 126.

Other defeated fighters he ducked would be Raheem, JMM, Casamayor, Nate Campbell, Shane Mosley (before his fight with Floyd), Michael Katsidis, Ali Funeka, Marcos Maidana, Ortiz, Peterson, Paul Williams and now Sergio Martinez.

That is all.

You know I agree with you on that to a point. But dodging them is hardly the right word.

After dominating the smaller divisions he decided to move up for the megafights. En route to the welterweight division he had an inbetween fight against David Diaz to pick up another belt before the Oscar fight.

Sure he wasn't the best opposition, but at that time Manny wasn't interested in conquering the lightweight division he was headed for Oscar, and then beyond that the big sharks at 147 where all the action was.

Surely you can't expect a fighter to move through 10 weight classes AND fight all the best fighters in every division? That's completely unreasonable. They can only fight maybe 3 times a year and a career does not last long. Manny hasn't dodged anybody, he has gone for the biggest fights, both in terms of events and paydays.

If Juan Diaz and Edwin Valero were big name box office fighters and considered the stars of the sport, you can be certain he would have fought them.

As for dodging Paul Williams and Sergio Martinez that is just absurd. What about Lucian Bute claiming he is number one at 168 and yet refusing to fight Thomas Adamek and David Haye? Or Sergio Martinez dodging Andre Ward?

I didn't say it or agree with it, just that word that Pac ducks those fighters. And I agree with you no one can fight every Tom, Dick, or Harry. Do I believe he ducked them? Of course not. And now we have Bernard Hopkins saying that he ducks African-American fighters that are slick.

His true fame is in the lighter weights. Now just a juiced up fighter with great Marketing handlers..... He will never take the piss test ......
Sure he ducked ..... Never fought a deserving Soto, Guzman or Valero in their prime. After a gift decision vss JMM he moved up in weight to pummel beyond their prime Marquee names . He continues to not challenge fighters in their prime: No Bradley, Berto, Khan, Angulo or Alvarez. Instead we have to witness a possible Mosley fight? Another Arum silver platter for the Pinoy Parade

[Addicted to_boxing]

I don't think milmascaras is an idiot. He is extreme, but amongst the bombast I do see some valid points being made.

I think Manny is in his prime at the higher weights as he isn't needing to boil down so much. We saw in the second Barrera fight how lethargic he looked, but that fight was also down to Barrera being unwilling to engage. We also saw Morales outbox him first time out and IMO Marquez had his number twice.

Pac has been far more impressive at the higher weights, but there is a degree of smoke and mirrors involved and some people have been getting high on the fumes. Manny is impressive for sure, but there are still question marks. Why not go after Mosley 2 years ago instead of Clottey, Cotto and then Margarito? Instead each of the previous opponents was coming off of a loss and in the cases of the later two, they were devastating losses. Where are the unbeaten fighters in their prime? There simply aren't any. They have been picking very carefully.

Good question! Where are they indeed? Do you have any names of these undefeated fighters in their prime that Manny has been avoiding at welterweight?

I can only think of Berto, but the Pac haters on here have already dismissed this as a gimme fight for Manny. So which unbeaten welterweight fighters are you thinking he dodged?

Word is that Pacquiao dodged Juan Diaz(when undefeated) and Valero at 135, Bradley and Alexander at 140 and of course Berto and Mayweather at 147 and Chris John at 126.

Other defeated fighters he ducked would be Raheem, JMM, Casamayor, Nate Campbell, Shane Mosley (before his fight with Floyd), Michael Katsidis, Ali Funeka, Marcos Maidana, Ortiz, Peterson, Paul Williams and now Sergio Martinez.

That is all.

You know I agree with you on that to a point. But dodging them is hardly the right word.

After dominating the smaller divisions he decided to move up for the megafights. En route to the welterweight division he had an inbetween fight against David Diaz to pick up another belt before the Oscar fight.

Sure he wasn't the best opposition, but at that time Manny wasn't interested in conquering the lightweight division he was headed for Oscar, and then beyond that the big sharks at 147 where all the action was.

Surely you can't expect a fighter to move through 10 weight classes AND fight all the best fighters in every division? That's completely unreasonable. They can only fight maybe 3 times a year and a career does not last long. Manny hasn't dodged anybody, he has gone for the biggest fights, both in terms of events and paydays.

If Juan Diaz and Edwin Valero were big name box office fighters and considered the stars of the sport, you can be certain he would have fought them.

As for dodging Paul Williams and Sergio Martinez that is just absurd. What about Lucian Bute claiming he is number one at 168 and yet refusing to fight Thomas Adamek and David Haye? Or Sergio Martinez dodging Andre Ward?

If Juan Diaz and Edwin Valero were big name box office fighters and considered the stars of the sport, you can be certain he would have fought them. What a joke , seems you forget Pac was a nobody before MAB gave him a chance !!! Balls Pac seems to not want to display ....

[NUCLEAR BULL]

he's had two primes....1 as a toe 2 toe brawler and now as a great move and hit boxer

[ICB]

I don't think milmascaras is an idiot. He is extreme, but amongst the bombast I do see some valid points being made.

I think Manny is in his prime at the higher weights as he isn't needing to boil down so much. We saw in the second Barrera fight how lethargic he looked, but that fight was also down to Barrera being unwilling to engage. We also saw Morales outbox him first time out and IMO Marquez had his number twice.

Pac has been far more impressive at the higher weights, but there is a degree of smoke and mirrors involved and some people have been getting high on the fumes. Manny is impressive for sure, but there are still question marks. Why not go after Mosley 2 years ago instead of Clottey, Cotto and then Margarito? Instead each of the previous opponents was coming off of a loss and in the cases of the later two, they were devastating losses. Where are the unbeaten fighters in their prime? There simply aren't any. They have been picking very carefully.

Good question! Where are they indeed? Do you have any names of these undefeated fighters in their prime that Manny has been avoiding at welterweight?

I can only think of Berto, but the Pac haters on here have already dismissed this as a gimme fight for Manny. So which unbeaten welterweight fighters are you thinking he dodged?

Word is that Pacquiao dodged Juan Diaz(when undefeated) and Valero at 135, Bradley and Alexander at 140 and of course Berto and Mayweather at 147 and Chris John at 126.

Other defeated fighters he ducked would be Raheem, JMM, Casamayor, Nate Campbell, Shane Mosley (before his fight with Floyd), Michael Katsidis, Ali Funeka, Marcos Maidana, Ortiz, Peterson, Paul Williams and now Sergio Martinez.

That is all.

And Floyd Mayweather Jr supposedly avoided Stevie Johnston, Acelino Freitas, Paul Spadafora, Joel Casamayor, Antonio Margarito, ETC. There's always someone they could of fought.

But who cares they've still both beat very good fighters, and both fighters have an excellent resume.

And both are great in different ways, i just wish they'd fight so we can find out who's better. But it won't happen, so hopefully my boy JMM gets to fight Manny Pacquiao at a fair weight.

So he can hopefully stop living in the shadow's of Manny Pacquiao, because it really isn't fair that he should have to. He's just as exciting as Manny Pacquiao, he never ducks anyone. And he took Manny Pacquiao to the wire twice.

[KKisser]

Kkisser,

hey peep-squeak, nobody's talking to you! go back and suck on your mama's titty and shut up!

Nobody needs to talk to him in order for him to express his opinion. This is a forum, isn't it? Why do you need to resort to name-calling?

To go back to the topic, I would say above lightweight ..... ooppps, I said this already.
Manny has developed an excellent right, better defense, acquired patience and improved footwork.

yup, better just go back to topic since everyone knows what this guy is. lol

i think pac is at his prime right now but it's getting more difficult for him to have the motivation to train hard at this stage because of other things he's busy with especially politics. the fight with floyd if it ever gets made would bring back that fire in him.

[Julius Rain]

Im just wondering can the people who voted pac being at his peak below lightweight explain why they believe that?

I know Master had already ask to re-vote.

How about Milmascas and Addicted_to_boxing, can you two explain. I am interested to know why you guys believe pac is better below lightweight.

[miron_lang]

Pacman keeps picking on the weak and avoiding the legitimate challenges like Jean Pascal.

Thanks Bilbo. That really made me laugh lol