again, sidorenko was carefully handpicked to make donaire look great. and hey, donaire passed the test with flying colors. but until he fights someone with size and who can punch, i'm not ready to anoint him as the next great thing!
Once again you are confused. Manny has never tried to get a fighter to have a same day weigh in. He has rather negotiated two fights to take place at a catchweight in order to counteract the unfair size advantage the bigger man would get through being able to rehydrate to a point far above the maximum weight limit by the time of the fight.
Manny has no problem fighting a 154 lb man at junior middle, he just didn't want to face a 170lb man. By arranging a catchweight and requiring Margarito to weight 150lb a day before the fight he limited the amount of extra weight he could put on to 165 lbs, or 11lbs above the 154 lb limit.
Catchweights are entirely within the rules so Manny has not attempted to change any rules. The only fighter who has in recent years is Floyd Mayweather in attempting to bring in new drug testing regulations.
no dude you are confused
you said to make it fair thats what they should do
i said but if they did that it would be bending the rules
read back
and i say again, it might be an unfair size advantage but manny is going up in weight so thats what he should expect
if he is fighting for the light middleweight world championship then the fairest way to do that is to fight within the same rules that everyone else fights at
i stress again, i like manny and i am enjoying the ride, im just not sure his welterweight and light middleweight world titles are as legit as someones who hasnt moved the goal post![]()
Yes, but it's me arguing for same day weigh in's not Manny. Plus if they reintroduced them, then they would be part of the rules again. It's just the other side of the catchweight argument.
People make a big deal about asking a fighter to weight less than the maximum fight limit the day before the fight, but think it's perfectly fine and acceptable for a fighter to be well over the weight limit during the fight itself.
A fair fight for the light middleweight title would be both fighters having to come in under the maximum weight limit of 154 lbs.
Under the current system that doesn't happen. There is no weight limit for the fight itself, only how much you have to weigh the day before.
Margarito weighed 165 lbs for his 154 lb fight with Manny, Ricardo Mayorga weighed 170lbs for his fight at 154 with Sugar Shane.
In terms of bodyweight that is not a fair fight, and in the case of a smaller guy wanting to fight a bigger guy, the historic way to limit that advantage has to been to fight at a catchweight, the bigger guy has to cut a little more, so that he cannot gain as much over night.
It's really not hard to understand. When two fighters are the same size and same natural weight class the current system is ok. But when you have a legendary little fighter moving up 10 weight classes imo it's perfectly acceptable for him want to level the playing field a little bit by arranging a catchweight. Even with the catchweight against Margarito he was outweighed by 19lbs for the fight itself, which surely anyone can see is an advantage for the bigger guy, all other things being equal.
Had it not been a catchweight Margarito may well have weighed 170lbs on fight night and Manny would have been fighting a super middleweight whilst weighing one pound over the welterweight limit himself.
If you still cannot see the argument being made here then I give up.
(from your first paragraph) we are talking about you saying they should bring back same days werent we?
i understand your argument dude but i completely disagree
the paragraph i have highlighted is really what i am arguing against, you think because manny is a legend that he should be able to bend the rules
i think that is pretty outrageous
Now I'm confused? What rules have I said he should be aloud to bend? I support the catchweights as legitimate fights for the reason I have given above. Seeing as some of the greatest fighters in history have been involved in catchweight fights, even the great Henry Armstrong who Manny's career most closely rivals I don't see the big deal.
They are an inevitable compromise when you have two fighters of different size trying to fight each other.
Both fighters take risks in catchweight bouts - boxing - ESPN
I guess all these guys too have broken rules in boxing, because they too have fought at catchweights.
Other notable catchweights not mentioned.
Chavez-Whitaker at 145 pounds and the mythical p4p title.
Hopkins-Pavlik and Hopkins-Wright at 170.
Mayweather-Marquez at 144.
Pavlik-Taylor at 166.
I guess all of these guys were breaking the rules of boxing.![]()
ok
the discussion we are having is not around who has bent what rules
the title of the thread is - Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
so the question could be - Are the demands pacquiao making on his opponents affecting they're performances on fight night?
another way of asking the question could be - By all means make a catchweight, but is it fair when a fighter with a bigger name in boxing is getting a bigger advantage from the catchweight?
Yup and it's a simple answer.
YES OF COURSE IT AFFECTS HIS OPPONANTS. WHY ELSE WOULD HE MAKE THOSE DEMANDS?
I just thought it was funny that catchweights were considered to be breaking the rules of boxing as considered by some, when it's been done since the early 20th century as stated in that ESPN article. So catchweights have been around for more than 100 years and possibly even before that.
Well I would answer no emphatically.
First up the Oscar fight. This wasn't Manny being the bad guy, it was Oscar! Oscar was the big star wanting to drag up the exciting Manny three weight divisions from superfeatherweight to beat him up at welterweight. Oscar had seen Sugar Shane comfortably move back down from 154 to 147 and figured it would be a nice easy way to earn shit loads of cash. And virtually everybody agreed with him. Manny was a huge underdog and any prefight complaints were aimed at Oscar for taking on such a little guy. Ok Oscar looked fucking awful on the night, but he had nobody else to blame. He himself was guilty of dragging down a much bigger man in B Hop from 160 to 156 to fight for his world title. And he got knocked out in this case also.
Second Cotto. Cotto represented the first time Manny was fighting a genuine welterweight, again a much bigger man and a real test for Manny. They agreed to a catchweight of 145 lbs, incidently the same limit that Marquez got Floyd to agree to, although he broke that contract by weighing 147 anyway. Cotto did not have to lose much extra weight at all. In fact he voluntarily had come in at 146 dead for his last fight against Clottey. So Cotto lost a single pound to fight Manny, that's it, one single pound. After this fight Manny felt established at 147 and thus fought Josh Clottey at the full 147 limit. This is the same Josh Clottey who brutalised the almost 6ft tall Diego Coralles remember. Coralles only moved up from lightweight. Manny from flyweight!!!!!!!
Finally Margarito. This isn't even an argument imo. Margarito was a career welterweight who weighed in at under 146 lbs for his fight against Sugar Shane. Here he weighed in over 4lbs heavier. Where was the hardship there? It wouldn't be suprising if Margarito is to come back down to 147 at some point if the fight he wants is there. Being weight drained had nothing to do with it. As I said many times, Manny just wanted a fairer fight, and didn't want Margarito to be able to weigh in excess of 170lbs on fight night. As it was, he weighed 'only' 165.
Last edited by Kev; 12-06-2010 at 02:20 PM.
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