De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st

[generalbulldog]

general,

so you don't think sidorenko was handpicked to make donaire look good? are you eff'ing kidding me? look, the guy was old, slow, small, and he hit as hard as a minimumweight. OF COURSE sidorenko was handpicked. do you think arum was going to risk a montiel fight against a dangerous opponent? come on dude, quit drinking that damned kool-aid and you'll be fine.

Sidorenko was a former title holder that was a career bantamweight, it was a decent win for Donaire, a tuneup fight for a much bigger fight which in boxing history are littered with it.

[milmascaras1]

again, sidorenko was carefully handpicked to make donaire look great. and hey, donaire passed the test with flying colors. but until he fights someone with size and who can punch, i'm not ready to anoint him as the next great thing!

[Kev]

I'm not sure about how familiar you are with boxing history but the wiegh ins used to be on the day of the fight.

They were moved to the day before in the television era of Ali etc, and then the weigh in itself was used to hype the fight.

It gives larger fighters the advantage against a smaller guy.

Normally it doesn't matter as not many fighters rise up 10 weight classes but Manny is the exception. All he has sought (and only twice ever) is that his opponents make a slight concession too, to balane the unequal distribution of fairness for them having a 24 hour window to gain weight considerably over and above the maximum weight limit.

I'll say it again. No fighter has been stopped from weighing even more than the weight limit on the day of the fight.

Manny has never asked for same day weigh ins. He has negotiated two catchweights, both voluntarily agreed into by his opponent, both of whom had fought at a much lower weight than even the catchweight in the not too distant past.

Hatton and Clottey were not catchweight fights, and they got their asses handed to them just the same.

It's such an overblown objection.

The only fighter who has ever had to drop weight to a catchweight was Cotto, by a single pound over and above what he voluntarily weighed against Clottey. Margarito was a welterweight moving up to 154 so didnt have to cut anything.

Imagine this scenario. Roy Jones moves up to heavyweight and instead of fighting John Ruiz he fights Lennox Lewis or Vitali Klitschko, with a contractual stipulation that they must weigh lets say 1 lb below their lowest fighting weight from the previous two years, that would be an approximate analagy.

So Lewis or Vitali would have to weigh in below 245 lbs for the fight, rather than their usual 248 or so.

Then Roy Jones beats the snot out of them knocking one out and dominating the other over 12 rounds.

According to your standards that would not be as impressive to you as him beating John Ruiz, because Ruiz was not subjected to the weight agreement.

It really is that absurd.

mate you are funny

they arent the rules now, so if they would make them the rules for a manny fight then they would be changing the rules wouldnt they?

so fighters fight in a weight class that suits them yes? so all is equal

if manny wants to fight at a weight class that is at the limit of his weight where he cant put on any more weight and be effective then he should expect to be fighting a bigger man shouldnt he?

it only benefits the bigger man when his opponent is moving up in weight and when a fighter is moving up in weight he should expect to fight bigger men

i dont know how to say it any clearer dude

Once again you are confused. Manny has never tried to get a fighter to have a same day weigh in. He has rather negotiated two fights to take place at a catchweight in order to counteract the unfair size advantage the bigger man would get through being able to rehydrate to a point far above the maximum weight limit by the time of the fight.

Manny has no problem fighting a 154 lb man at junior middle, he just didn't want to face a 170lb man. By arranging a catchweight and requiring Margarito to weight 150lb a day before the fight he limited the amount of extra weight he could put on to 165 lbs, or 11lbs above the 154 lb limit.

Catchweights are entirely within the rules so Manny has not attempted to change any rules. The only fighter who has in recent years is Floyd Mayweather in attempting to bring in new drug testing regulations.

[erics44]

I'm not sure about how familiar you are with boxing history but the wiegh ins used to be on the day of the fight.

They were moved to the day before in the television era of Ali etc, and then the weigh in itself was used to hype the fight.

It gives larger fighters the advantage against a smaller guy.

Normally it doesn't matter as not many fighters rise up 10 weight classes but Manny is the exception. All he has sought (and only twice ever) is that his opponents make a slight concession too, to balane the unequal distribution of fairness for them having a 24 hour window to gain weight considerably over and above the maximum weight limit.

I'll say it again. No fighter has been stopped from weighing even more than the weight limit on the day of the fight.

Manny has never asked for same day weigh ins. He has negotiated two catchweights, both voluntarily agreed into by his opponent, both of whom had fought at a much lower weight than even the catchweight in the not too distant past.

Hatton and Clottey were not catchweight fights, and they got their asses handed to them just the same.

It's such an overblown objection.

The only fighter who has ever had to drop weight to a catchweight was Cotto, by a single pound over and above what he voluntarily weighed against Clottey. Margarito was a welterweight moving up to 154 so didnt have to cut anything.

Imagine this scenario. Roy Jones moves up to heavyweight and instead of fighting John Ruiz he fights Lennox Lewis or Vitali Klitschko, with a contractual stipulation that they must weigh lets say 1 lb below their lowest fighting weight from the previous two years, that would be an approximate analagy.

So Lewis or Vitali would have to weigh in below 245 lbs for the fight, rather than their usual 248 or so.

Then Roy Jones beats the snot out of them knocking one out and dominating the other over 12 rounds.

According to your standards that would not be as impressive to you as him beating John Ruiz, because Ruiz was not subjected to the weight agreement.

It really is that absurd.

mate you are funny

they arent the rules now, so if they would make them the rules for a manny fight then they would be changing the rules wouldnt they?

so fighters fight in a weight class that suits them yes? so all is equal

if manny wants to fight at a weight class that is at the limit of his weight where he cant put on any more weight and be effective then he should expect to be fighting a bigger man shouldnt he?

it only benefits the bigger man when his opponent is moving up in weight and when a fighter is moving up in weight he should expect to fight bigger men

i dont know how to say it any clearer dude

Once again you are confused. Manny has never tried to get a fighter to have a same day weigh in. He has rather negotiated two fights to take place at a catchweight in order to counteract the unfair size advantage the bigger man would get through being able to rehydrate to a point far above the maximum weight limit by the time of the fight.

Manny has no problem fighting a 154 lb man at junior middle, he just didn't want to face a 170lb man. By arranging a catchweight and requiring Margarito to weight 150lb a day before the fight he limited the amount of extra weight he could put on to 165 lbs, or 11lbs above the 154 lb limit.

Catchweights are entirely within the rules so Manny has not attempted to change any rules. The only fighter who has in recent years is Floyd Mayweather in attempting to bring in new drug testing regulations.

no dude you are confused

you said to make it fair thats what they should do

i said but if they did that it would be bending the rules

read back

and i say again, it might be an unfair size advantage but manny is going up in weight so thats what he should expect

if he is fighting for the light middleweight world championship then the fairest way to do that is to fight within the same rules that everyone else fights at

i stress again, i like manny and i am enjoying the ride, im just not sure his welterweight and light middleweight world titles are as legit as someones who hasnt moved the goal post

[Kev]

I'm not sure about how familiar you are with boxing history but the wiegh ins used to be on the day of the fight.

They were moved to the day before in the television era of Ali etc, and then the weigh in itself was used to hype the fight.

It gives larger fighters the advantage against a smaller guy.

Normally it doesn't matter as not many fighters rise up 10 weight classes but Manny is the exception. All he has sought (and only twice ever) is that his opponents make a slight concession too, to balane the unequal distribution of fairness for them having a 24 hour window to gain weight considerably over and above the maximum weight limit.

I'll say it again. No fighter has been stopped from weighing even more than the weight limit on the day of the fight.

Manny has never asked for same day weigh ins. He has negotiated two catchweights, both voluntarily agreed into by his opponent, both of whom had fought at a much lower weight than even the catchweight in the not too distant past.

Hatton and Clottey were not catchweight fights, and they got their asses handed to them just the same.

It's such an overblown objection.

The only fighter who has ever had to drop weight to a catchweight was Cotto, by a single pound over and above what he voluntarily weighed against Clottey. Margarito was a welterweight moving up to 154 so didnt have to cut anything.

Imagine this scenario. Roy Jones moves up to heavyweight and instead of fighting John Ruiz he fights Lennox Lewis or Vitali Klitschko, with a contractual stipulation that they must weigh lets say 1 lb below their lowest fighting weight from the previous two years, that would be an approximate analagy.

So Lewis or Vitali would have to weigh in below 245 lbs for the fight, rather than their usual 248 or so.

Then Roy Jones beats the snot out of them knocking one out and dominating the other over 12 rounds.

According to your standards that would not be as impressive to you as him beating John Ruiz, because Ruiz was not subjected to the weight agreement.

It really is that absurd.

mate you are funny

they arent the rules now, so if they would make them the rules for a manny fight then they would be changing the rules wouldnt they?

so fighters fight in a weight class that suits them yes? so all is equal

if manny wants to fight at a weight class that is at the limit of his weight where he cant put on any more weight and be effective then he should expect to be fighting a bigger man shouldnt he?

it only benefits the bigger man when his opponent is moving up in weight and when a fighter is moving up in weight he should expect to fight bigger men

i dont know how to say it any clearer dude

Once again you are confused. Manny has never tried to get a fighter to have a same day weigh in. He has rather negotiated two fights to take place at a catchweight in order to counteract the unfair size advantage the bigger man would get through being able to rehydrate to a point far above the maximum weight limit by the time of the fight.

Manny has no problem fighting a 154 lb man at junior middle, he just didn't want to face a 170lb man. By arranging a catchweight and requiring Margarito to weight 150lb a day before the fight he limited the amount of extra weight he could put on to 165 lbs, or 11lbs above the 154 lb limit.

Catchweights are entirely within the rules so Manny has not attempted to change any rules. The only fighter who has in recent years is Floyd Mayweather in attempting to bring in new drug testing regulations.

no dude you are confused

you said to make it fair thats what they should do

i said but if they did that it would be bending the rules

read back

and i say again, it might be an unfair size advantage but manny is going up in weight so thats what he should expect

if he is fighting for the light middleweight world championship then the fairest way to do that is to fight within the same rules that everyone else fights at

i stress again, i like manny and i am enjoying the ride, im just not sure his welterweight and light middleweight world titles are as legit as someones who hasnt moved the goal post

Yes, but it's me arguing for same day weigh in's not Manny. Plus if they reintroduced them, then they would be part of the rules again. It's just the other side of the catchweight argument.

People make a big deal about asking a fighter to weight less than the maximum fight limit the day before the fight, but think it's perfectly fine and acceptable for a fighter to be well over the weight limit during the fight itself.

A fair fight for the light middleweight title would be both fighters having to come in under the maximum weight limit of 154 lbs.

Under the current system that doesn't happen. There is no weight limit for the fight itself, only how much you have to weigh the day before.

Margarito weighed 165 lbs for his 154 lb fight with Manny, Ricardo Mayorga weighed 170lbs for his fight at 154 with Sugar Shane.

In terms of bodyweight that is not a fair fight, and in the case of a smaller guy wanting to fight a bigger guy, the historic way to limit that advantage has to been to fight at a catchweight, the bigger guy has to cut a little more, so that he cannot gain as much over night.

It's really not hard to understand. When two fighters are the same size and same natural weight class the current system is ok. But when you have a legendary little fighter moving up 10 weight classes imo it's perfectly acceptable for him want to level the playing field a little bit by arranging a catchweight. Even with the catchweight against Margarito he was outweighed by 19lbs for the fight itself, which surely anyone can see is an advantage for the bigger guy, all other things being equal.

Had it not been a catchweight Margarito may well have weighed 170lbs on fight night and Manny would have been fighting a super middleweight whilst weighing one pound over the welterweight limit himself.

If you still cannot see the argument being made here then I give up.

[erics44]

I'm not sure about how familiar you are with boxing history but the wiegh ins used to be on the day of the fight.

They were moved to the day before in the television era of Ali etc, and then the weigh in itself was used to hype the fight.

It gives larger fighters the advantage against a smaller guy.

Normally it doesn't matter as not many fighters rise up 10 weight classes but Manny is the exception. All he has sought (and only twice ever) is that his opponents make a slight concession too, to balane the unequal distribution of fairness for them having a 24 hour window to gain weight considerably over and above the maximum weight limit.

I'll say it again. No fighter has been stopped from weighing even more than the weight limit on the day of the fight.

Manny has never asked for same day weigh ins. He has negotiated two catchweights, both voluntarily agreed into by his opponent, both of whom had fought at a much lower weight than even the catchweight in the not too distant past.

Hatton and Clottey were not catchweight fights, and they got their asses handed to them just the same.

It's such an overblown objection.

The only fighter who has ever had to drop weight to a catchweight was Cotto, by a single pound over and above what he voluntarily weighed against Clottey. Margarito was a welterweight moving up to 154 so didnt have to cut anything.

Imagine this scenario. Roy Jones moves up to heavyweight and instead of fighting John Ruiz he fights Lennox Lewis or Vitali Klitschko, with a contractual stipulation that they must weigh lets say 1 lb below their lowest fighting weight from the previous two years, that would be an approximate analagy.

So Lewis or Vitali would have to weigh in below 245 lbs for the fight, rather than their usual 248 or so.

Then Roy Jones beats the snot out of them knocking one out and dominating the other over 12 rounds.

According to your standards that would not be as impressive to you as him beating John Ruiz, because Ruiz was not subjected to the weight agreement.

It really is that absurd.

mate you are funny

they arent the rules now, so if they would make them the rules for a manny fight then they would be changing the rules wouldnt they?

so fighters fight in a weight class that suits them yes? so all is equal

if manny wants to fight at a weight class that is at the limit of his weight where he cant put on any more weight and be effective then he should expect to be fighting a bigger man shouldnt he?

it only benefits the bigger man when his opponent is moving up in weight and when a fighter is moving up in weight he should expect to fight bigger men

i dont know how to say it any clearer dude

Once again you are confused. Manny has never tried to get a fighter to have a same day weigh in. He has rather negotiated two fights to take place at a catchweight in order to counteract the unfair size advantage the bigger man would get through being able to rehydrate to a point far above the maximum weight limit by the time of the fight.

Manny has no problem fighting a 154 lb man at junior middle, he just didn't want to face a 170lb man. By arranging a catchweight and requiring Margarito to weight 150lb a day before the fight he limited the amount of extra weight he could put on to 165 lbs, or 11lbs above the 154 lb limit.

Catchweights are entirely within the rules so Manny has not attempted to change any rules. The only fighter who has in recent years is Floyd Mayweather in attempting to bring in new drug testing regulations.

no dude you are confused

you said to make it fair thats what they should do

i said but if they did that it would be bending the rules

read back

and i say again, it might be an unfair size advantage but manny is going up in weight so thats what he should expect

if he is fighting for the light middleweight world championship then the fairest way to do that is to fight within the same rules that everyone else fights at

i stress again, i like manny and i am enjoying the ride, im just not sure his welterweight and light middleweight world titles are as legit as someones who hasnt moved the goal post

Yes, but it's me arguing for same day weigh in's not Manny. Plus if they reintroduced them, then they would be part of the rules again. It's just the other side of the catchweight argument.

People make a big deal about asking a fighter to weight less than the maximum fight limit the day before the fight, but think it's perfectly fine and acceptable for a fighter to be well over the weight limit during the fight itself.

A fair fight for the light middleweight title would be both fighters having to come in under the maximum weight limit of 154 lbs.

Under the current system that doesn't happen. There is no weight limit for the fight itself, only how much you have to weigh the day before.

Margarito weighed 165 lbs for his 154 lb fight with Manny, Ricardo Mayorga weighed 170lbs for his fight at 154 with Sugar Shane.

In terms of bodyweight that is not a fair fight, and in the case of a smaller guy wanting to fight a bigger guy, the historic way to limit that advantage has to been to fight at a catchweight, the bigger guy has to cut a little more, so that he cannot gain as much over night.

It's really not hard to understand. When two fighters are the same size and same natural weight class the current system is ok. But when you have a legendary little fighter moving up 10 weight classes imo it's perfectly acceptable for him want to level the playing field a little bit by arranging a catchweight. Even with the catchweight against Margarito he was outweighed by 19lbs for the fight itself, which surely anyone can see is an advantage for the bigger guy, all other things being equal.

Had it not been a catchweight Margarito may well have weighed 170lbs on fight night and Manny would have been fighting a super middleweight whilst weighing one pound over the welterweight limit himself.

If you still cannot see the argument being made here then I give up.

(from your first paragraph) we are talking about you saying they should bring back same days werent we?

i understand your argument dude but i completely disagree

the paragraph i have highlighted is really what i am arguing against, you think because manny is a legend that he should be able to bend the rules

i think that is pretty outrageous

[Kev]

I'm not sure about how familiar you are with boxing history but the wiegh ins used to be on the day of the fight.

They were moved to the day before in the television era of Ali etc, and then the weigh in itself was used to hype the fight.

It gives larger fighters the advantage against a smaller guy.

Normally it doesn't matter as not many fighters rise up 10 weight classes but Manny is the exception. All he has sought (and only twice ever) is that his opponents make a slight concession too, to balane the unequal distribution of fairness for them having a 24 hour window to gain weight considerably over and above the maximum weight limit.

I'll say it again. No fighter has been stopped from weighing even more than the weight limit on the day of the fight.

Manny has never asked for same day weigh ins. He has negotiated two catchweights, both voluntarily agreed into by his opponent, both of whom had fought at a much lower weight than even the catchweight in the not too distant past.

Hatton and Clottey were not catchweight fights, and they got their asses handed to them just the same.

It's such an overblown objection.

The only fighter who has ever had to drop weight to a catchweight was Cotto, by a single pound over and above what he voluntarily weighed against Clottey. Margarito was a welterweight moving up to 154 so didnt have to cut anything.

Imagine this scenario. Roy Jones moves up to heavyweight and instead of fighting John Ruiz he fights Lennox Lewis or Vitali Klitschko, with a contractual stipulation that they must weigh lets say 1 lb below their lowest fighting weight from the previous two years, that would be an approximate analagy.

So Lewis or Vitali would have to weigh in below 245 lbs for the fight, rather than their usual 248 or so.

Then Roy Jones beats the snot out of them knocking one out and dominating the other over 12 rounds.

According to your standards that would not be as impressive to you as him beating John Ruiz, because Ruiz was not subjected to the weight agreement.

It really is that absurd.

mate you are funny

they arent the rules now, so if they would make them the rules for a manny fight then they would be changing the rules wouldnt they?

so fighters fight in a weight class that suits them yes? so all is equal

if manny wants to fight at a weight class that is at the limit of his weight where he cant put on any more weight and be effective then he should expect to be fighting a bigger man shouldnt he?

it only benefits the bigger man when his opponent is moving up in weight and when a fighter is moving up in weight he should expect to fight bigger men

i dont know how to say it any clearer dude

Once again you are confused. Manny has never tried to get a fighter to have a same day weigh in. He has rather negotiated two fights to take place at a catchweight in order to counteract the unfair size advantage the bigger man would get through being able to rehydrate to a point far above the maximum weight limit by the time of the fight.

Manny has no problem fighting a 154 lb man at junior middle, he just didn't want to face a 170lb man. By arranging a catchweight and requiring Margarito to weight 150lb a day before the fight he limited the amount of extra weight he could put on to 165 lbs, or 11lbs above the 154 lb limit.

Catchweights are entirely within the rules so Manny has not attempted to change any rules. The only fighter who has in recent years is Floyd Mayweather in attempting to bring in new drug testing regulations.

no dude you are confused

you said to make it fair thats what they should do

i said but if they did that it would be bending the rules

read back

and i say again, it might be an unfair size advantage but manny is going up in weight so thats what he should expect

if he is fighting for the light middleweight world championship then the fairest way to do that is to fight within the same rules that everyone else fights at

i stress again, i like manny and i am enjoying the ride, im just not sure his welterweight and light middleweight world titles are as legit as someones who hasnt moved the goal post

Yes, but it's me arguing for same day weigh in's not Manny. Plus if they reintroduced them, then they would be part of the rules again. It's just the other side of the catchweight argument.

People make a big deal about asking a fighter to weight less than the maximum fight limit the day before the fight, but think it's perfectly fine and acceptable for a fighter to be well over the weight limit during the fight itself.

A fair fight for the light middleweight title would be both fighters having to come in under the maximum weight limit of 154 lbs.

Under the current system that doesn't happen. There is no weight limit for the fight itself, only how much you have to weigh the day before.

Margarito weighed 165 lbs for his 154 lb fight with Manny, Ricardo Mayorga weighed 170lbs for his fight at 154 with Sugar Shane.

In terms of bodyweight that is not a fair fight, and in the case of a smaller guy wanting to fight a bigger guy, the historic way to limit that advantage has to been to fight at a catchweight, the bigger guy has to cut a little more, so that he cannot gain as much over night.

It's really not hard to understand. When two fighters are the same size and same natural weight class the current system is ok. But when you have a legendary little fighter moving up 10 weight classes imo it's perfectly acceptable for him want to level the playing field a little bit by arranging a catchweight. Even with the catchweight against Margarito he was outweighed by 19lbs for the fight itself, which surely anyone can see is an advantage for the bigger guy, all other things being equal.

Had it not been a catchweight Margarito may well have weighed 170lbs on fight night and Manny would have been fighting a super middleweight whilst weighing one pound over the welterweight limit himself.

If you still cannot see the argument being made here then I give up.

(from your first paragraph) we are talking about you saying they should bring back same days werent we?

i understand your argument dude but i completely disagree

the paragraph i have highlighted is really what i am arguing against, you think because manny is a legend that he should be able to bend the rules

i think that is pretty outrageous

What rules has he bent? Catchweights are a legal part of boxing and have been for decades?

[erics44]

i'm not sure about how familiar you are with boxing history but the wiegh ins used to be on the day of the fight.

They were moved to the day before in the television era of ali etc, and then the weigh in itself was used to hype the fight.

It gives larger fighters the advantage against a smaller guy.

Normally it doesn't matter as not many fighters rise up 10 weight classes but manny is the exception. All he has sought (and only twice ever) is that his opponents make a slight concession too, to balane the unequal distribution of fairness for them having a 24 hour window to gain weight considerably over and above the maximum weight limit.

I'll say it again. No fighter has been stopped from weighing even more than the weight limit on the day of the fight.

Manny has never asked for same day weigh ins. He has negotiated two catchweights, both voluntarily agreed into by his opponent, both of whom had fought at a much lower weight than even the catchweight in the not too distant past.

Hatton and clottey were not catchweight fights, and they got their asses handed to them just the same.

It's such an overblown objection.

The only fighter who has ever had to drop weight to a catchweight was cotto, by a single pound over and above what he voluntarily weighed against clottey. Margarito was a welterweight moving up to 154 so didnt have to cut anything.

Imagine this scenario. Roy jones moves up to heavyweight and instead of fighting john ruiz he fights lennox lewis or vitali klitschko, with a contractual stipulation that they must weigh lets say 1 lb below their lowest fighting weight from the previous two years, that would be an approximate analagy.

So lewis or vitali would have to weigh in below 245 lbs for the fight, rather than their usual 248 or so.

Then roy jones beats the snot out of them knocking one out and dominating the other over 12 rounds.

According to your standards that would not be as impressive to you as him beating john ruiz, because ruiz was not subjected to the weight agreement.

It really is that absurd.

mate you are funny

they arent the rules now, so if they would make them the rules for a manny fight then they would be changing the rules wouldnt they?

So fighters fight in a weight class that suits them yes? So all is equal

if manny wants to fight at a weight class that is at the limit of his weight where he cant put on any more weight and be effective then he should expect to be fighting a bigger man shouldnt he?

It only benefits the bigger man when his opponent is moving up in weight and when a fighter is moving up in weight he should expect to fight bigger men

i dont know how to say it any clearer dude

once again you are confused. Manny has never tried to get a fighter to have a same day weigh in. He has rather negotiated two fights to take place at a catchweight in order to counteract the unfair size advantage the bigger man would get through being able to rehydrate to a point far above the maximum weight limit by the time of the fight.

Manny has no problem fighting a 154 lb man at junior middle, he just didn't want to face a 170lb man. By arranging a catchweight and requiring margarito to weight 150lb a day before the fight he limited the amount of extra weight he could put on to 165 lbs, or 11lbs above the 154 lb limit.

Catchweights are entirely within the rules so manny has not attempted to change any rules. The only fighter who has in recent years is floyd mayweather in attempting to bring in new drug testing regulations.

no dude you are confused

you said to make it fair thats what they should do

i said but if they did that it would be bending the rules

read back

and i say again, it might be an unfair size advantage but manny is going up in weight so thats what he should expect

if he is fighting for the light middleweight world championship then the fairest way to do that is to fight within the same rules that everyone else fights at

i stress again, i like manny and i am enjoying the ride, im just not sure his welterweight and light middleweight world titles are as legit as someones who hasnt moved the goal post

yes, but it's me arguing for same day weigh in's not manny. Plus if they reintroduced them, then they would be part of the rules again. It's just the other side of the catchweight argument.

People make a big deal about asking a fighter to weight less than the maximum fight limit the day before the fight, but think it's perfectly fine and acceptable for a fighter to be well over the weight limit during the fight itself.

A fair fight for the light middleweight title would be both fighters having to come in under the maximum weight limit of 154 lbs.

Under the current system that doesn't happen. There is no weight limit for the fight itself, only how much you have to weigh the day before.

Margarito weighed 165 lbs for his 154 lb fight with manny, ricardo mayorga weighed 170lbs for his fight at 154 with sugar shane.

In terms of bodyweight that is not a fair fight, and in the case of a smaller guy wanting to fight a bigger guy, the historic way to limit that advantage has to been to fight at a catchweight, the bigger guy has to cut a little more, so that he cannot gain as much over night.

it's really not hard to understand. When two fighters are the same size and same natural weight class the current system is ok. But when you have a legendary little fighter moving up 10 weight classes imo it's perfectly acceptable for him want to level the playing field a little bit by arranging a catchweight. Even with the catchweight against margarito he was outweighed by 19lbs for the fight itself, which surely anyone can see is an advantage for the bigger guy, all other things being equal.

had it not been a catchweight margarito may well have weighed 170lbs on fight night and manny would have been fighting a super middleweight whilst weighing one pound over the welterweight limit himself.

If you still cannot see the argument being made here then i give up.

(from your first paragraph) we are talking about you saying they should bring back same days werent we? :d

i understand your argument dude but i completely disagree

the paragraph i have highlighted is really what i am arguing against, you think because manny is a legend that he should be able to bend the rules

i think that is pretty outrageous

what rules has he bent? Catchweights are a legal part of boxing and have been for decades?

hes not bent any rules, you reckon he should be able to tho because he is a legend

[Kev]

i'm not sure about how familiar you are with boxing history but the wiegh ins used to be on the day of the fight.

They were moved to the day before in the television era of ali etc, and then the weigh in itself was used to hype the fight.

It gives larger fighters the advantage against a smaller guy.

Normally it doesn't matter as not many fighters rise up 10 weight classes but manny is the exception. All he has sought (and only twice ever) is that his opponents make a slight concession too, to balane the unequal distribution of fairness for them having a 24 hour window to gain weight considerably over and above the maximum weight limit.

I'll say it again. No fighter has been stopped from weighing even more than the weight limit on the day of the fight.

Manny has never asked for same day weigh ins. He has negotiated two catchweights, both voluntarily agreed into by his opponent, both of whom had fought at a much lower weight than even the catchweight in the not too distant past.

Hatton and clottey were not catchweight fights, and they got their asses handed to them just the same.

It's such an overblown objection.

The only fighter who has ever had to drop weight to a catchweight was cotto, by a single pound over and above what he voluntarily weighed against clottey. Margarito was a welterweight moving up to 154 so didnt have to cut anything.

Imagine this scenario. Roy jones moves up to heavyweight and instead of fighting john ruiz he fights lennox lewis or vitali klitschko, with a contractual stipulation that they must weigh lets say 1 lb below their lowest fighting weight from the previous two years, that would be an approximate analagy.

So lewis or vitali would have to weigh in below 245 lbs for the fight, rather than their usual 248 or so.

Then roy jones beats the snot out of them knocking one out and dominating the other over 12 rounds.

According to your standards that would not be as impressive to you as him beating john ruiz, because ruiz was not subjected to the weight agreement.

It really is that absurd.

mate you are funny

they arent the rules now, so if they would make them the rules for a manny fight then they would be changing the rules wouldnt they?

So fighters fight in a weight class that suits them yes? So all is equal

if manny wants to fight at a weight class that is at the limit of his weight where he cant put on any more weight and be effective then he should expect to be fighting a bigger man shouldnt he?

It only benefits the bigger man when his opponent is moving up in weight and when a fighter is moving up in weight he should expect to fight bigger men

i dont know how to say it any clearer dude

once again you are confused. Manny has never tried to get a fighter to have a same day weigh in. He has rather negotiated two fights to take place at a catchweight in order to counteract the unfair size advantage the bigger man would get through being able to rehydrate to a point far above the maximum weight limit by the time of the fight.

Manny has no problem fighting a 154 lb man at junior middle, he just didn't want to face a 170lb man. By arranging a catchweight and requiring margarito to weight 150lb a day before the fight he limited the amount of extra weight he could put on to 165 lbs, or 11lbs above the 154 lb limit.

Catchweights are entirely within the rules so manny has not attempted to change any rules. The only fighter who has in recent years is floyd mayweather in attempting to bring in new drug testing regulations.

no dude you are confused

you said to make it fair thats what they should do

i said but if they did that it would be bending the rules

read back

and i say again, it might be an unfair size advantage but manny is going up in weight so thats what he should expect

if he is fighting for the light middleweight world championship then the fairest way to do that is to fight within the same rules that everyone else fights at

i stress again, i like manny and i am enjoying the ride, im just not sure his welterweight and light middleweight world titles are as legit as someones who hasnt moved the goal post

yes, but it's me arguing for same day weigh in's not manny. Plus if they reintroduced them, then they would be part of the rules again. It's just the other side of the catchweight argument.

People make a big deal about asking a fighter to weight less than the maximum fight limit the day before the fight, but think it's perfectly fine and acceptable for a fighter to be well over the weight limit during the fight itself.

A fair fight for the light middleweight title would be both fighters having to come in under the maximum weight limit of 154 lbs.

Under the current system that doesn't happen. There is no weight limit for the fight itself, only how much you have to weigh the day before.

Margarito weighed 165 lbs for his 154 lb fight with manny, ricardo mayorga weighed 170lbs for his fight at 154 with sugar shane.

In terms of bodyweight that is not a fair fight, and in the case of a smaller guy wanting to fight a bigger guy, the historic way to limit that advantage has to been to fight at a catchweight, the bigger guy has to cut a little more, so that he cannot gain as much over night.

it's really not hard to understand. When two fighters are the same size and same natural weight class the current system is ok. But when you have a legendary little fighter moving up 10 weight classes imo it's perfectly acceptable for him want to level the playing field a little bit by arranging a catchweight. Even with the catchweight against margarito he was outweighed by 19lbs for the fight itself, which surely anyone can see is an advantage for the bigger guy, all other things being equal.

had it not been a catchweight margarito may well have weighed 170lbs on fight night and manny would have been fighting a super middleweight whilst weighing one pound over the welterweight limit himself.

If you still cannot see the argument being made here then i give up.

(from your first paragraph) we are talking about you saying they should bring back same days werent we? :d

i understand your argument dude but i completely disagree

the paragraph i have highlighted is really what i am arguing against, you think because manny is a legend that he should be able to bend the rules

i think that is pretty outrageous

what rules has he bent? Catchweights are a legal part of boxing and have been for decades?

hes not bent any rules, you reckon he should be able to tho because he is a legend

Now I'm confused? What rules have I said he should be aloud to bend? I support the catchweights as legitimate fights for the reason I have given above. Seeing as some of the greatest fighters in history have been involved in catchweight fights, even the great Henry Armstrong who Manny's career most closely rivals I don't see the big deal.

They are an inevitable compromise when you have two fighters of different size trying to fight each other.

[generalbulldog]

Both fighters take risks in catchweight bouts - boxing - ESPN

I guess all these guys too have broken rules in boxing, because they too have fought at catchweights.

Other notable catchweights not mentioned.

Chavez-Whitaker at 145 pounds and the mythical p4p title.

Hopkins-Pavlik and Hopkins-Wright at 170.

Mayweather-Marquez at 144.

Pavlik-Taylor at 166.

I guess all of these guys were breaking the rules of boxing.

[Kev]

Both fighters take risks in catchweight bouts - boxing - ESPN

I guess all these guys too have broken rules in boxing, because they too have fought at catchweights.

Other notable catchweights not mentioned.

Chavez-Whitaker at 145 pounds and the mythical p4p title.

Hopkins-Pavlik and Hopkins-Wright at 170.

Mayweather-Marquez at 144.

Pavlik-Taylor at 166.

I guess all of these guys were breaking the rules of boxing.

Not often you and I agree

[erics44]

Now I'm confused? What rules have I said he should be aloud to bend? I support the catchweights as legitimate fights for the reason I have given above. Seeing as some of the greatest fighters in history have been involved in catchweight fights, even the great Henry Armstrong who Manny's career most closely rivals I don't see the big deal.

They are an inevitable compromise when you have two fighters of different size trying to fight each other.

ok

the discussion we are having is not around who has bent what rules

the title of the thread is - Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st

so the question could be - Are the demands pacquiao making on his opponents affecting they're performances on fight night?

another way of asking the question could be - By all means make a catchweight, but is it fair when a fighter with a bigger name in boxing is getting a bigger advantage from the catchweight?

[Hornfinger]

Yup and it's a simple answer.

YES OF COURSE IT AFFECTS HIS OPPONANTS. WHY ELSE WOULD HE MAKE THOSE DEMANDS?

[generalbulldog]

Both fighters take risks in catchweight bouts - boxing - ESPN

I guess all these guys too have broken rules in boxing, because they too have fought at catchweights.

Other notable catchweights not mentioned.

Chavez-Whitaker at 145 pounds and the mythical p4p title.

Hopkins-Pavlik and Hopkins-Wright at 170.

Mayweather-Marquez at 144.

Pavlik-Taylor at 166.

I guess all of these guys were breaking the rules of boxing.

Not often you and I agree

I just thought it was funny that catchweights were considered to be breaking the rules of boxing as considered by some, when it's been done since the early 20th century as stated in that ESPN article. So catchweights have been around for more than 100 years and possibly even before that.

[Kev]

Now I'm confused? What rules have I said he should be aloud to bend? I support the catchweights as legitimate fights for the reason I have given above. Seeing as some of the greatest fighters in history have been involved in catchweight fights, even the great Henry Armstrong who Manny's career most closely rivals I don't see the big deal.

They are an inevitable compromise when you have two fighters of different size trying to fight each other.

ok

the discussion we are having is not around who has bent what rules

the title of the thread is - Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st

so the question could be - Are the demands pacquiao making on his opponents affecting they're performances on fight night?

another way of asking the question could be - By all means make a catchweight, but is it fair when a fighter with a bigger name in boxing is getting a bigger advantage from the catchweight?

Well I would answer no emphatically.

First up the Oscar fight. This wasn't Manny being the bad guy, it was Oscar! Oscar was the big star wanting to drag up the exciting Manny three weight divisions from superfeatherweight to beat him up at welterweight. Oscar had seen Sugar Shane comfortably move back down from 154 to 147 and figured it would be a nice easy way to earn shit loads of cash. And virtually everybody agreed with him. Manny was a huge underdog and any prefight complaints were aimed at Oscar for taking on such a little guy. Ok Oscar looked fucking awful on the night, but he had nobody else to blame. He himself was guilty of dragging down a much bigger man in B Hop from 160 to 156 to fight for his world title. And he got knocked out in this case also.


Second Cotto. Cotto represented the first time Manny was fighting a genuine welterweight, again a much bigger man and a real test for Manny. They agreed to a catchweight of 145 lbs, incidently the same limit that Marquez got Floyd to agree to, although he broke that contract by weighing 147 anyway. Cotto did not have to lose much extra weight at all. In fact he voluntarily had come in at 146 dead for his last fight against Clottey. So Cotto lost a single pound to fight Manny, that's it, one single pound. After this fight Manny felt established at 147 and thus fought Josh Clottey at the full 147 limit. This is the same Josh Clottey who brutalised the almost 6ft tall Diego Coralles remember. Coralles only moved up from lightweight. Manny from flyweight!!!!!!!


Finally Margarito. This isn't even an argument imo. Margarito was a career welterweight who weighed in at under 146 lbs for his fight against Sugar Shane. Here he weighed in over 4lbs heavier. Where was the hardship there? It wouldn't be suprising if Margarito is to come back down to 147 at some point if the fight he wants is there. Being weight drained had nothing to do with it. As I said many times, Manny just wanted a fairer fight, and didn't want Margarito to be able to weigh in excess of 170lbs on fight night. As it was, he weighed 'only' 165.