Wikileaks? Are you for or against what they are doing?

[Gandalf]

3 people have voted yes, so I think that this issue has been hammered out thoroughly enough. Saddo boxing hereby requests that the British government release Julian Assange on bail!

I got a new computer today, so I am quite happy. I am going to download those Horizon documentaries again and this time I am going to try and download the entire file! If this computer goes and dies I will be mildly pissed off. It's not going to happen though, that old computer deserved to die. I might smash it up with a hammer later.

haha mate I voted yes! Your poll question was simply have truths been revealed, and of course they have! It doesn't the change the fact that Assange is a slimy cunt and that America have come out of this so well that many arguing that it was the CIA who actually organised the leaks.

You haven't answered any of my questions. The revelations concering the true nature of Arab feeling in the middle East have been very significant.

Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the UAE, Egypt and Syria are all alarmed by Iran's increasing nuclear menance. They all believe they are the biggest threat to peace in the region.

Yet because you are so commited to you 'Jews and Americans are the real badguys' mindset you just dismiss all of this with a popish wave of your hand.

Iran IS a problem. If they get nuclear missles then the rest of the Arab world will rush to get them too, in the most unstable region in the world. We have Nato about to build a missile defence system on the borders of Eastern Europe, and even the Russians want to join up with us in that. Apart from you, everybody is concerned about Iran.

Did you see the probable Mossad executions last week of two Iranian physicists. Bikers appeared alongside their cars and stuck bombs on the windscreen before accelerating off and blowing the cars sky high James Bond style. It was believed to have been the final hit of Meir Dagan, Israel's head of Mossad before he stepped down. Mossad are fucking awesome, little Ahmadinejad has no clue what he is messing with. His Jew hating regime is going to be crushed in 2011.

Ah, I have just got my new computer up and running so haven't got around to debating properly, but I shall indulge you now.

For sure, the documents show us that a number of leaders in the Middle East are concerned about Iran and want them to be dealt with. But you have to question their motives in saying such things. Israel has an obvious agenda. Saudi Arabia is a large oil supplying nation and a very close ally of America and surely wouldn't mind too much if one of their competitors were to be eradicated. And let's not forget how many of these countries have a vested interest in America and have US bases. Also you have to consider that some of these countries are effectively dictatorships themselves. Saudi Arabia is the harshest regime in the region. For instance, we can't really criticise Iran on their human rights if we are going to ignore Saudi Arabia's approach to the same issues. We are listening to people who have absolutely no respect for democracy and in doing so also show our complete disregard of democracy. We give no consideration to the opinions of the citizens of these countries and polls tell us that these citizens do NOT view Iran as a threat. It isn't only me saying that America and Israel are the biggest threats to the region. It is the entire Arab world too.

We are constantly being told of the threat of Iran's nuclear weapons programme, but there is really very little evidence to suggest that they are even working on one. And even if they were working on something more than to provide it's own population with affordable electricity, then how can we criticise them when Israel is right there on the border armed up to the teeth with nuclear weapons? It is the height of hypocrisy and therefore disolves the entire argument. If the region were nuclear free and there was considerable evidence against Iran then we would have a case against them, but as things stand there is absolutely no way we can attack Iran for it. Otherwise, we would have to invade Israel and also many other countries around the world and would also have to eradicate our own enormous stockpiles. It might also be argued that a nuclear Iranian state would further bring peace to the region. If you nuke a country and know that a nuke is coming right back at you then you have a dangerous, but relatively stable standoff. Seoul hasn't gone down in a plume of smoke and Tel Aviv won't either. I was reading that Hezbollah now has long range weapons that cover all of Israel. On paper this sounds terrible, but really it might prove good for the region. Israel will think twice before invading again. It is a deterrent.

I didn't read that story, but it sounds quite interesting. I differ in that I think Mossad are an awful organisation and and represent nothing more than state sponsored terrorism. I think Ahmadinejad knows exactly what he's dealing with. He is governing a country surrounded by threats. Israel wants a bloodbath and there are US bases in most of the countries surrounding Iran. They are hemmed in and threatened from all sides. From that perspective, I think he is doing a fairly respectable job and is dealing with it fairly well. That is not to say that I approve of the Iranian regime because I do not. However, I do not approve of most regimes in the world and I certainly do not support the invasion of independant nations without sufficient justification. Otherwise we should be orchestrating regime change the world over and also organising revolutions in our own countries.

You still didn't answer any of my questions though!

1. What wikileaks revelations made Israel look bad?
2. What wikileaks revelations in particular confirmed your opinion of America being a corrupt, phoney evil nation?
3. You dismiss the rantings of Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the UAE, Egypt and Syria as being meaningless because they are corrupt dictatorships and thus their views cannot be trusted. But what nations in the middle east are democracies? I can only think of one and you hate them most of all!
4. If you can't trust the Arab nations when they rant against Iran, how can you trust them when they rant against Israel?

1. To be honest and in a more sober light, I don't think we have learned all that much new about Israel and to be fair to them, they have at least always been open about their intentions regarding Iran. We could argue that they look bad because their diplomats are banging the drums of war, but they are doing this in public too. Either way it is bad as they have no justification in trying to drum up support for any kind of intervention regarding Iran.

2. The prior leaks relating to Iraq reflected extremely badly on the US. In fact, we don't even need the release of secret documents to confirm this view. Everything is pretty much on the record. The invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq were two of the most immoral acts we have seen in recent times. How do we know it is corrupt and phoney? One of the best books I have read in the last year was Naomi Klein's "The shock doctrine". It documents in extensive detail the way America has tried to impose it's unjust economic model upon the world over the last 4 decades. Usually with force and by backing criminal juntas. Let's just look at the crony capitalism that has taken place in the past two decades since Clinton deregulated the financial sectors. Just look at how 8 trillion dollars has been used to bail out the financial sector, whilst all around politicians are chanting 'time for austerity....we are all in it together'. No we aren't. Mass fraud has been commited and not one person has gone to jail for it. These are the actions of an unjust, phoney and morally dubious nation. However, America isn't alone in how it has acted. It does lead the way though, considering how much of the worlds wealth is based around US interests.

3. Yes, Israel is a democracy and considering the nature of many of the regimes in the region, this is to be commended. I respect that. However, I cannot respect us listening to dictators who disregard the will of their respective populations. I also cannot respect Israel telling us about the potential dangers of a nuclear Iran when it too is armed up to the teeth. It reeks of double standards and invalidates the argument.

4. When Ahmadinejad rants about Israel I shake my head and frown, but it is just rhetoric being used to make himself look better in the eyes of his nation. I don't think it serves any real purpose to denigrate Israel in such a way, but I do see immense justification in criticising Israel for its treatment of Gaza and repeated imperialist adventures in the region. For all Irans faults, it is not the nation in the region most well known for invading sovereign territories and commiting war crimes. For this you can look no further than Israel. When Israel bangs the drums of war you know they mean it because they have done it repeatedly in the past and gone ahead and moved beyond mere rhetoric.

The Arab population is right in their interpretion as to who the biggest threats in the region are. Common sense and a rudimentary knowledge of history are what informs their perceptions. In our cases, we get the corporate media blindly spouting government press statements and off to war we go. The America public might be gullible, but I distinctly recall polls showing most Brits to be against the Iraq war. This was the same throughout most of Europe actually. Again, this shows that it isn't only Arab dictatorships that have a total disregard for democratic processes.