Wikileaks? Are you for or against what they are doing?

[Andre]

Isn't it Sweden that looks after their poor and elderly the best?

Or is someone else taking the piss?

[Gandalf]

Miles you keep saying that governments are run by elites for elites and that no one is tending to the needs of the average ordinary citizen....well please, pretty please with a cherry on top show me a successful government that accommodated the average ordinary citizen and no corporations or elite group had little to no pull.

You won't be able to show me one because its like a unicorn, its a fantasy and that my friend is what liberalism is based on....fantasy

I said it before, I think the most obvious example to me was what The Labour Party introduced to the UK after WW2. A nationalised healthcare system, nationalised utilities and transportation systems, support for those unable to work and subsidised education through the tertiary sector, support for trade unions etc. These were measures that were enacted even though the major British corporations would likely have been against it. In fact it was so successful that it largely stayed in place until Thatcher under the influence of Friedman dismantled it in the 1980's.

Now the average UK citizen has to pay through the roof for utilities, public transportation, university education etc. But we do still have the NHS. It was a system that did work and was successful, but of course it could never come back as large corporations in collusion with the government would never relinquish what they now have.

[Andre]

Miles you keep saying that governments are run by elites for elites and that no one is tending to the needs of the average ordinary citizen....well please, pretty please with a cherry on top show me a successful government that accommodated the average ordinary citizen and no corporations or elite group had little to no pull.

You won't be able to show me one because its like a unicorn, its a fantasy and that my friend is what liberalism is based on....fantasy

I said it before, I think the most obvious example to me was what The Labour Party introduced to the UK after WW2. A nationalised healthcare system, nationalised utilities and transportation systems, support for those unable to work and subsidised education through the tertiary sector, support for trade unions etc. These were measures that were enacted even though the major British corporations would likely have been against it. In fact it was so successful that it largely stayed in place until Thatcher under the influence of Friedman dismantled it in the 1980's.

Now the average UK citizen has to pay through the roof for utilities, public transportation, university education etc. But we do still have the NHS. It was a system that did work and was successful, but of course it could never come back as large corporations in collusion with the government would never relinquish what they now have.

You cad Sir!
You've made me look up roof in context...
you ment to say ass.

Sore through the roof
Pay through the ass

the other way is gay.

[El Kabong]

Miles if you are under the illusion that Unions are neither political nor have elite members then that's fine....I tend to disagree. Unions have done great harm in the US and I think now that we have a Department of Labor that Unions in general are worthless other than being a group that uses strong arm tactics to ensure the Democrats keep some power. I know you're speaking specifically of England and you (like most other Brits) want to place 100% of the blame on Maggie Thatcher, but do tell me there was 0 corruption in those Unions and 0 intent from elite Union leaders to gain greater power in the government for THEMSELVES and not the average joe's out there, becasue I don't buy it for a second.

[Gandalf]

Isn't it Sweden that looks after their poor and elderly the best?

Or is someone else taking the piss?

No, that's quite true. Scandinavian countries generally speaking have very good welfare state models.

[Andre]

HAve most of your Unions got ties back into the Mob or is it just the garbage collectors union out there that is linked into them?


Ours all have some have some ties into the waterfront workers.that is the Mob out here.

[El Kabong]

HAve most of your Unions got ties back into the Mob or is it just the garbage collectors union out there that is linked into them?


Ours all have some have some ties into the waterfront workers.that is the Mob out here.

Basically...Jimmy Hoffa was the leader of the Teamsters and had mob ties.

And miles their welfare is successful if you want the end result to be making people lazy because they have done exactly that. Lazy entitled people who do 0 to help the economy.

[Gandalf]

Miles if you are under the illusion that Unions are neither political nor have elite members then that's fine....I tend to disagree. Unions have done great harm in the US and I think now that we have a Department of Labor that Unions in general are worthless other than being a group that uses strong arm tactics to ensure the Democrats keep some power. I know you're speaking specifically of England and you (like most other Brits) want to place 100% of the blame on Maggie Thatcher, but do tell me there was 0 corruption in those Unions and 0 intent from elite Union leaders to gain greater power in the government for THEMSELVES and not the average joe's out there, becasue I don't buy it for a second.

Lyle, of course unions are political. It is a group of people trying to make collective decisions, a union is by its very nature political. And as I have said before I always maintain a sense of suspicion about any organisation with a concentration of power. Sure there are agendas at play, but ultimately a union is about representing the interests of the worker as contrasted with the corporate elite who exist only to represent their shareholder friends. Which political side am I on? Of course the one that wants to represent labour interests. I have done no research on the topic, but my gut intuition is that there may have been some corruption in the union process, but that is because of my own inherent distrust of power. But IMO even a union with a small degree of corruption is infinitely preferable to not even being able to have a union at all. In the corporation I was working for in the UK, corporations were not allowed and anyone looking to form one would have been given the boot very quickly. I would have loved to have a union looking out for me as the conditions were awful.

For sure, I would imagine that there is an element of power play involved in unions, but that is better than having no representation and having the elite rip labour off just to satisfy shareowner interests.

[Gandalf]

HAve most of your Unions got ties back into the Mob or is it just the garbage collectors union out there that is linked into them?


Ours all have some have some ties into the waterfront workers.that is the Mob out here.

Basically...Jimmy Hoffa was the leader of the Teamsters and had mob ties.

And miles their welfare is successful if you want the end result to be making people lazy because they have done exactly that. Lazy entitled people who do 0 to help the economy.

Right Lyle, because socialism/welfare for the elite is an infinitely more preferable model. Give it to the bankers who messed up the world, but let's not give anything to the working people who cannot find work anymore. I would agree that some are lazy, but let's not generalise too much.

[Andre]

HAve most of your Unions got ties back into the Mob or is it just the garbage collectors union out there that is linked into them?


Ours all have some have some ties into the waterfront workers.that is the Mob out here.

Basically...Jimmy Hoffa was the leader of the Teamsters and had mob ties.

And miles their welfare is successful if you want the end result to be making people lazy because they have done exactly that. Lazy entitled people who do 0 to help the economy.

So Lyle have all or most of your unions got ties?

Out here the industrial unions have links into the water front workers and the bastards can hold the whole business sector up if they dont get their cut.

Our old PM from the late eighties: primeminister Bob Hawke, left his job as head of the Union to run as leader of the opposition "LAbour Party" Which is like your Liberals.

We are reverse to you: our Libs are for free enterprise .LAbour more like the Reds or commies were.

Anyway Bob Hawke left his job as head of the ACTU Australian Capital territory Union to become PrimeMinister for Labour. There were murders and disappearances of some men who were lined up for his old job! Shows you how high up they have got.

[El Kabong]

Miles, I think Unions treat the average joe worse than the government for example if you want to work at a certain factory you HAVE to be Union, and to be a Union member you have to pay dues and where do those dues go? What do they pay for? And what does the low man on the totem pole get out of being a Union member other than being able to seriously fuck up his job yet stay employed because he's in a Union?

[Kev]

Miles you keep saying that governments are run by elites for elites and that no one is tending to the needs of the average ordinary citizen....well please, pretty please with a cherry on top show me a successful government that accommodated the average ordinary citizen and no corporations or elite group had little to no pull.

You won't be able to show me one because its like a unicorn, its a fantasy and that my friend is what liberalism is based on....fantasy

I said it before, I think the most obvious example to me was what The Labour Party introduced to the UK after WW2. A nationalised healthcare system, nationalised utilities and transportation systems, support for those unable to work and subsidised education through the tertiary sector, support for trade unions etc. These were measures that were enacted even though the major British corporations would likely have been against it. In fact it was so successful that it largely stayed in place until Thatcher under the influence of Friedman dismantled it in the 1980's.

Now the average UK citizen has to pay through the roof for utilities, public transportation, university education etc. But we do still have the NHS. It was a system that did work and was successful, but of course it could never come back as large corporations in collusion with the government would never relinquish what they now have.

I hate socialism. It tries to engineer equality by taking from one to give to another, when usually the most successful has more because he is more productive and proactive than the other.

It's like the story of lazy mouse. How can you endorse such a shit philosophy?

[Gandalf]

Miles, I think Unions treat the average joe worse than the government for example if you want to work at a certain factory you HAVE to be Union, and to be a Union member you have to pay dues and where do those dues go? What do they pay for? And what does the low man on the totem pole get out of being a Union member other than being able to seriously fuck up his job yet stay employed because he's in a Union?

I cannot really comment without knowing the specifics of this particular union. My perception of unions is definitely quite different to your one. However, a union should be no different to any other democratic organisation. You pay your dues therefore your vote on significant issues should matter. That is infinitely preferable to working without a union IMO as basically you are just treated how the elite want to treat you. You have no bargaining power short of quitting. Just because he is low on the totem pole shouldn't eradicate his voting power, he is after all paying his dues. Joining a union should defintely be optional though.

[El Kabong]

Miles as you will recall I was against the bail out as I don't think the government should pick winners and losers.

[Gandalf]

Miles you keep saying that governments are run by elites for elites and that no one is tending to the needs of the average ordinary citizen....well please, pretty please with a cherry on top show me a successful government that accommodated the average ordinary citizen and no corporations or elite group had little to no pull.

You won't be able to show me one because its like a unicorn, its a fantasy and that my friend is what liberalism is based on....fantasy

I said it before, I think the most obvious example to me was what The Labour Party introduced to the UK after WW2. A nationalised healthcare system, nationalised utilities and transportation systems, support for those unable to work and subsidised education through the tertiary sector, support for trade unions etc. These were measures that were enacted even though the major British corporations would likely have been against it. In fact it was so successful that it largely stayed in place until Thatcher under the influence of Friedman dismantled it in the 1980's.

Now the average UK citizen has to pay through the roof for utilities, public transportation, university education etc. But we do still have the NHS. It was a system that did work and was successful, but of course it could never come back as large corporations in collusion with the government would never relinquish what they now have.

I hate socialism. It tries to engineer equality by taking from one to give to another, when usually the most successful has more because he is more productive and proactive than the other.

It's like the story of lazy mouse. How can you endorse such a shit philosophy?

How can a man who doesn't work criticise that system? Bilbo....

People who are more successful are usually so because they have been given all the advantages brought about through inheritence and privilege. There are numerous exceptions, but this is usually how it is. Take away that and what you have is a level playing field. I am all for a level playing field. I was reading an article today that revealed that children at primary schools who recieved free school meals were significantly more likely to be unable to read beyond a basic level than other students. Poverty reduces the ability to compete in society and even a free dinner isn't that much of a help to these kids. I recieved free school dinners and did very well, but I am a bit weird.

Society should be about the equality of opportunity and a level starting platform. Obviously we cannot have communism, so therefore, we need a society that assists those that start off with difficulty, otherwise we are condemning them from birth. In that sense, the model I outlined above is perfectly feasible and is morally just. It helps to make life a little bit more equal and for society to be a little more than those that have it all and those that have nothing.