Brian Magee v Lucian Bute - March 19th

[Rantcatrat]

He's a woefully deficient opponent, let's not get it twisted, and the sarcasm is deserved, but I challenge anyone to come up with a reasonable opponent at 168.

Bilbo?

Well as one who is not opposed to catchweights I would have just moved up to say 171-72 and fought a half decent opponent around there. Diaconu, Cloud, Erdei etc.

Both Bute and Erdei have weighed in voluntarily at 173 in fights the past couple years that would have made for an interesting fight.

Not sure what the story is on Dimitri Sartisan, I know he hasn't fought in a few months. Is he available or injured or what?

Were I Bute, and were I super ambitious (although admittedly I'm not. I would have sat on my ass and took joke fights for cash too) I would have made sure I got it on with my fellow countryman Jean Pascal. I'd have made it at a catchweight of 172 and had both of our titles on the line. To me that's a great matchup and a good weight for both fighters seeing as Bute has weighed 172 before and Pascal sometimes usually weighs in under 175 anyway.

Not the best choice and sucks cause that makes 2 fights now that I'd rather not see.

Umm but not sure that sartison would be any better of a fight, kessler stopped him in 12 while leading on the cards by like ten points...

erdei or cloud wouldn't be bad, for diaconu meh wouldn't be able to hang with bute I don't think, looked just average in his last fight. He should get some flack for this fight but can't criticize him to much till some of the super six guys are free or back from injury. I think if makes a trend of this then yeah start the hate.

I don't think bute's resume prior to the super six is any worse than the guys that went into the super six. He's got bika, andrade x2, berrio whom he took the title from, zuniga and a few past title contenders or ex title holders, compare that to the fighters who entered the super six and really it's no worse other than kessler's and taylor's.

-Prior to froch entering he had pascal who wasn't that big of a name at that time, and a bunch of b level fighters fought exclusively in the uk. He was pretty much getting constant slack on here for having a huge mouth and not backing up shit.

-Andre Ward, pretty much unproven and no big names other than miranda.

-Dirrel didn't know jack about him prior really.

-AA fought exclusively in Germany, biggest wins were a ko and a sd over miranda.Also had a few decent european level/world contender fighters on resume.

-Kessler resume was better than bute's even prior to entering the tourney, and didn't exclusively fight at home.

-JT had by far and above the best resume of any of the fighters prior to entering the tourney.

Once again if bute continues fighting this type of competition once some of the tourney guys are free start the hate but till then hold your horses.

Ward was a prospect with 19 fights at the time, with Miranda being his best opponent. Bute's best opponent at the same time was probably one of Lolenga Mock or James Toney (the other one) who'd previously been a Middleweight.

Similarly Dirrell had only had 17 fights and was also a mere prospect, his best win being Victor Oganov, probably on a similar level to Bute's at that time.

Abraham had beat Miranda twice, Gevor & Raul Marquez before the tourney, but no one elite so imo his resume was a bit weaker than Bute's.

Kessler as you said much better. He had already taken Bute's best win at the time (Andrade I) & done it much more convincingly.

Froch had beaten both Pascal and Jermain Taylor. Pascal may not have been recognized as elite at the time but Taylor certainly was. Not to mention that one of the 'b level names' in the UK is who Bute is planning on fighting in his next fight, and no, Magee hasn't got any better.

Now I expect to be called a Bute-hater, but I do think he's very impressive & his first few fights as champ were just right. However, he had no urge to go anywhere near Pascal & he seems happy to keep taking on the Brinkleys & Magees of the world, so he's gonna catch shit for it.

Jaz, good post. Seems pretty balanced and I thought you were anti-Bute.

I would have said Bute's best opponents at the time of the tournament were Bika and Andrade (even in controversial fashion) and if I may add, he beat Bika more convincingly than Ward did, and he beat Miranda (after tournament began) more convincingly than Ward did.

Basically, at the time the tournament started, Bute had a better resume than Ward, Dirrell, or Abraham.

I don't really understand why he gets grief for not jumping up in weight. From what we know, its not like he's having trouble making weight. If Pascal had offered to come down to 168 and Bute opted out, well then, I agree with you.

Consider that Calzaghe was the best super middleweight of the last 20 years. How many years did Calzaghe fight against the Magee's of the world before he stepped up his level of competition? I don't think Calzaghe should have moved up in weight and neither should Bute.

Lastly, I disagree that he is content to fighting the Brinkley's and Magee's of the world. If that was the case, why would he have moved from HBO to Showtime. It's pretty obvious it's because he wants in on the Super Six contestents.

[Kev]

He's a woefully deficient opponent, let's not get it twisted, and the sarcasm is deserved, but I challenge anyone to come up with a reasonable opponent at 168.

Bilbo?

Well as one who is not opposed to catchweights I would have just moved up to say 171-72 and fought a half decent opponent around there. Diaconu, Cloud, Erdei etc.

Both Bute and Erdei have weighed in voluntarily at 173 in fights the past couple years that would have made for an interesting fight.

Not sure what the story is on Dimitri Sartisan, I know he hasn't fought in a few months. Is he available or injured or what?

Were I Bute, and were I super ambitious (although admittedly I'm not. I would have sat on my ass and took joke fights for cash too) I would have made sure I got it on with my fellow countryman Jean Pascal. I'd have made it at a catchweight of 172 and had both of our titles on the line. To me that's a great matchup and a good weight for both fighters seeing as Bute has weighed 172 before and Pascal sometimes usually weighs in under 175 anyway.

Not the best choice and sucks cause that makes 2 fights now that I'd rather not see.

Umm but not sure that sartison would be any better of a fight, kessler stopped him in 12 while leading on the cards by like ten points...

erdei or cloud wouldn't be bad, for diaconu meh wouldn't be able to hang with bute I don't think, looked just average in his last fight. He should get some flack for this fight but can't criticize him to much till some of the super six guys are free or back from injury. I think if makes a trend of this then yeah start the hate.

I don't think bute's resume prior to the super six is any worse than the guys that went into the super six. He's got bika, andrade x2, berrio whom he took the title from, zuniga and a few past title contenders or ex title holders, compare that to the fighters who entered the super six and really it's no worse other than kessler's and taylor's.

-Prior to froch entering he had pascal who wasn't that big of a name at that time, and a bunch of b level fighters fought exclusively in the uk. He was pretty much getting constant slack on here for having a huge mouth and not backing up shit.

-Andre Ward, pretty much unproven and no big names other than miranda.

-Dirrel didn't know jack about him prior really.

-AA fought exclusively in Germany, biggest wins were a ko and a sd over miranda.Also had a few decent european level/world contender fighters on resume.

-Kessler resume was better than bute's even prior to entering the tourney, and didn't exclusively fight at home.

-JT had by far and above the best resume of any of the fighters prior to entering the tourney.

Once again if bute continues fighting this type of competition once some of the tourney guys are free start the hate but till then hold your horses.

Ward was a prospect with 19 fights at the time, with Miranda being his best opponent. Bute's best opponent at the same time was probably one of Lolenga Mock or James Toney (the other one) who'd previously been a Middleweight.

Similarly Dirrell had only had 17 fights and was also a mere prospect, his best win being Victor Oganov, probably on a similar level to Bute's at that time.

Abraham had beat Miranda twice, Gevor & Raul Marquez before the tourney, but no one elite so imo his resume was a bit weaker than Bute's.

Kessler as you said much better. He had already taken Bute's best win at the time (Andrade I) & done it much more convincingly.

Froch had beaten both Pascal and Jermain Taylor. Pascal may not have been recognized as elite at the time but Taylor certainly was. Not to mention that one of the 'b level names' in the UK is who Bute is planning on fighting in his next fight, and no, Magee hasn't got any better.

Now I expect to be called a Bute-hater, but I do think he's very impressive & his first few fights as champ were just right. However, he had no urge to go anywhere near Pascal & he seems happy to keep taking on the Brinkleys & Magees of the world, so he's gonna catch shit for it.

Jaz, good post. Seems pretty balanced and I thought you were anti-Bute.

I would have said Bute's best opponents at the time of the tournament were Bika and Andrade (even in controversial fashion) and if I may add, he beat Bika more convincingly than Ward did, and he beat Miranda (after tournament began) more convincingly than Ward did.

Basically, at the time the tournament started, Bute had a better resume than Ward, Dirrell, or Abraham.

I don't really understand why he gets grief for not jumping up in weight. From what we know, its not like he's having trouble making weight. If Pascal had offered to come down to 168 and Bute opted out, well then, I agree with you.

Consider that Calzaghe was the best super middleweight of the last 20 years. How many years did Calzaghe fight against the Magee's of the world before he stepped up his level of competition? I don't think Calzaghe should have moved up in weight and neither should Bute.

Lastly, I disagree that he is content to fighting the Brinkley's and Magee's of the world. If that was the case, why would he have moved from HBO to Showtime. It's pretty obvious it's because he wants in on the Super Six contestents.

I'll be honest. I'm not really a huge fan of weight classes, or at least the average boxing fan's slavish adherence to them.

There is no such thing as a 147, 168 or 175 lb man, they are all arbitary limits set to impose some structure on the sport. But nowadays they are just red tape that fans love to bind themselves up in.

Both Bute and Erdei have voluntarily weighed in at 172/73 in the past couple years so it's obviously as natural a weight for them as the fixed supermiddle and light heavyweight limits.

Pascal was at 168 not long ago so again 172/73 should be no discomfort at all.

I myself routinely go up and down in weight from 10st to about 10st 10lb depending on diet and inactivity. My weight changes by a pound or so a day every time I take a poo.

Yet in boxing, it seems that many fans believe a fighter can only fight efficiently if he weighs 168lbs on the nose, any less and he's weight drained, any more and he's above his natural fighting weight.

I find it a farce to be honest. There is no reason at all why guys like Bute, Pascal, Erdei, Pavlik, Froch, Hopkins etc cannot all fight each other at a weight that is healthy for all of them.

Fans seem to love beaurocracy in boxing and slavish adherence to rules that limit the best fights being made.

But if believing that fighting Jesse Brinkley at 168lbs (actually neither exactly weighed 168 anyway) somehow maintains the integrity of boxing than Bute fighting another world champion at 172/73 and makes you feel better then go for it I guess.

Personally I just want to see the best fighters fight the best fighters. Quality fights and the best matchups being made to me are what boxing is about, not upholding the purity of the weight class limits. These structures put in place to organise and enhance boxing, when they start to restrict it, then we should loosen our binds to the red tape a little.

[armin]

He's a woefully deficient opponent, let's not get it twisted, and the sarcasm is deserved, but I challenge anyone to come up with a reasonable opponent at 168.

Bilbo?

Well as one who is not opposed to catchweights I would have just moved up to say 171-72 and fought a half decent opponent around there. Diaconu, Cloud, Erdei etc.

Both Bute and Erdei have weighed in voluntarily at 173 in fights the past couple years that would have made for an interesting fight.

Not sure what the story is on Dimitri Sartisan, I know he hasn't fought in a few months. Is he available or injured or what?

Were I Bute, and were I super ambitious (although admittedly I'm not. I would have sat on my ass and took joke fights for cash too) I would have made sure I got it on with my fellow countryman Jean Pascal. I'd have made it at a catchweight of 172 and had both of our titles on the line. To me that's a great matchup and a good weight for both fighters seeing as Bute has weighed 172 before and Pascal sometimes usually weighs in under 175 anyway.

Not the best choice and sucks cause that makes 2 fights now that I'd rather not see.

Umm but not sure that sartison would be any better of a fight, kessler stopped him in 12 while leading on the cards by like ten points...

erdei or cloud wouldn't be bad, for diaconu meh wouldn't be able to hang with bute I don't think, looked just average in his last fight. He should get some flack for this fight but can't criticize him to much till some of the super six guys are free or back from injury. I think if makes a trend of this then yeah start the hate.

I don't think bute's resume prior to the super six is any worse than the guys that went into the super six. He's got bika, andrade x2, berrio whom he took the title from, zuniga and a few past title contenders or ex title holders, compare that to the fighters who entered the super six and really it's no worse other than kessler's and taylor's.

-Prior to froch entering he had pascal who wasn't that big of a name at that time, and a bunch of b level fighters fought exclusively in the uk. He was pretty much getting constant slack on here for having a huge mouth and not backing up shit.

-Andre Ward, pretty much unproven and no big names other than miranda.

-Dirrel didn't know jack about him prior really.

-AA fought exclusively in Germany, biggest wins were a ko and a sd over miranda.Also had a few decent european level/world contender fighters on resume.

-Kessler resume was better than bute's even prior to entering the tourney, and didn't exclusively fight at home.

-JT had by far and above the best resume of any of the fighters prior to entering the tourney.

Once again if bute continues fighting this type of competition once some of the tourney guys are free start the hate but till then hold your horses.

Ward was a prospect with 19 fights at the time, with Miranda being his best opponent. Bute's best opponent at the same time was probably one of Lolenga Mock or James Toney (the other one) who'd previously been a Middleweight.

Similarly Dirrell had only had 17 fights and was also a mere prospect, his best win being Victor Oganov, probably on a similar level to Bute's at that time.

Abraham had beat Miranda twice, Gevor & Raul Marquez before the tourney, but no one elite so imo his resume was a bit weaker than Bute's.

Kessler as you said much better. He had already taken Bute's best win at the time (Andrade I) & done it much more convincingly.

Froch had beaten both Pascal and Jermain Taylor. Pascal may not have been recognized as elite at the time but Taylor certainly was. Not to mention that one of the 'b level names' in the UK is who Bute is planning on fighting in his next fight, and no, Magee hasn't got any better.

Now I expect to be called a Bute-hater, but I do think he's very impressive & his first few fights as champ were just right. However, he had no urge to go anywhere near Pascal & he seems happy to keep taking on the Brinkleys & Magees of the world, so he's gonna catch shit for it.

Just checked boxrec and you were only off by one fight james obede toney was his 18th fight, 3 years into his career. Hist 20th fight 3.5 years into his career was bika, after that came the title shot. I feel like he was coming along quicker than most ,3.5 years into a pro career fighting the bikas of the world isn't bad at all. Granted over the last year it seems that the quality of his opposition has regressed but I'll let blame that on the SS for now.

Fighters fight at certain weights because that's where they're the best at, hell hopkins got himself down to 160 for 15 years because he knew that's where he was most effective. In catchweight fights I don't think you're getting the best possible version of one or both boxers involved. Granted it's usually only 3 or 4 pounds, but hell if those 3 or 4 pounds didn't matter they'd just say f it and fight at the higher weight class from the get go. So I'll keep supporting bute even if he fights less than stellar opposition while the SS is happening, but he better step it up thereafter.

[Kev]

He's a woefully deficient opponent, let's not get it twisted, and the sarcasm is deserved, but I challenge anyone to come up with a reasonable opponent at 168.

Bilbo?

Well as one who is not opposed to catchweights I would have just moved up to say 171-72 and fought a half decent opponent around there. Diaconu, Cloud, Erdei etc.

Both Bute and Erdei have weighed in voluntarily at 173 in fights the past couple years that would have made for an interesting fight.

Not sure what the story is on Dimitri Sartisan, I know he hasn't fought in a few months. Is he available or injured or what?

Were I Bute, and were I super ambitious (although admittedly I'm not. I would have sat on my ass and took joke fights for cash too) I would have made sure I got it on with my fellow countryman Jean Pascal. I'd have made it at a catchweight of 172 and had both of our titles on the line. To me that's a great matchup and a good weight for both fighters seeing as Bute has weighed 172 before and Pascal sometimes usually weighs in under 175 anyway.

Not the best choice and sucks cause that makes 2 fights now that I'd rather not see.

Umm but not sure that sartison would be any better of a fight, kessler stopped him in 12 while leading on the cards by like ten points...

erdei or cloud wouldn't be bad, for diaconu meh wouldn't be able to hang with bute I don't think, looked just average in his last fight. He should get some flack for this fight but can't criticize him to much till some of the super six guys are free or back from injury. I think if makes a trend of this then yeah start the hate.

I don't think bute's resume prior to the super six is any worse than the guys that went into the super six. He's got bika, andrade x2, berrio whom he took the title from, zuniga and a few past title contenders or ex title holders, compare that to the fighters who entered the super six and really it's no worse other than kessler's and taylor's.

-Prior to froch entering he had pascal who wasn't that big of a name at that time, and a bunch of b level fighters fought exclusively in the uk. He was pretty much getting constant slack on here for having a huge mouth and not backing up shit.

-Andre Ward, pretty much unproven and no big names other than miranda.

-Dirrel didn't know jack about him prior really.

-AA fought exclusively in Germany, biggest wins were a ko and a sd over miranda.Also had a few decent european level/world contender fighters on resume.

-Kessler resume was better than bute's even prior to entering the tourney, and didn't exclusively fight at home.

-JT had by far and above the best resume of any of the fighters prior to entering the tourney.

Once again if bute continues fighting this type of competition once some of the tourney guys are free start the hate but till then hold your horses.

Ward was a prospect with 19 fights at the time, with Miranda being his best opponent. Bute's best opponent at the same time was probably one of Lolenga Mock or James Toney (the other one) who'd previously been a Middleweight.

Similarly Dirrell had only had 17 fights and was also a mere prospect, his best win being Victor Oganov, probably on a similar level to Bute's at that time.

Abraham had beat Miranda twice, Gevor & Raul Marquez before the tourney, but no one elite so imo his resume was a bit weaker than Bute's.

Kessler as you said much better. He had already taken Bute's best win at the time (Andrade I) & done it much more convincingly.

Froch had beaten both Pascal and Jermain Taylor. Pascal may not have been recognized as elite at the time but Taylor certainly was. Not to mention that one of the 'b level names' in the UK is who Bute is planning on fighting in his next fight, and no, Magee hasn't got any better.

Now I expect to be called a Bute-hater, but I do think he's very impressive & his first few fights as champ were just right. However, he had no urge to go anywhere near Pascal & he seems happy to keep taking on the Brinkleys & Magees of the world, so he's gonna catch shit for it.

Just checked boxrec and you were only off by one fight james obede toney was his 18th fight, 3 years into his career. Hist 20th fight 3.5 years into his career was bika, after that came the title shot. I feel like he was coming along quicker than most ,3.5 years into a pro career fighting the bikas of the world isn't bad at all. Granted over the last year it seems that the quality of his opposition has regressed but I'll let blame that on the SS for now.

Fighters fight at certain weights because that's where they're the best at, hell hopkins got himself down to 160 for 15 years because he knew that's where he was most effective. In catchweight fights I don't think you're getting the best possible version of one or both boxers involved. Granted it's usually only 3 or 4 pounds, but hell if those 3 or 4 pounds didn't matter they'd just say f it and fight at the higher weight class from the get go. So I'll keep supporting bute even if he fights less than stellar opposition while the SS is happening, but he better step it up thereafter.

That makes no logical sense unless you believe that certain weight's are more optimum for the human body to weigh than others.

I mean if the light heavyweight limit was set at 173, would fighting at 175 be a handicap for most boxers? Are you suggesting that 147, 154, 160, 168, 175 etc are weights that people more naturally weigh than 149, 156, 163, 173 etc?

The weight class limits are arbitary limits set to give boxing a structure. It is no more natural for a man in the real world to weigh exactly 147 lbs than it is 149.5 for example.

It's a weird belief that people have imo.

[armin]

That is not what I meant at all, I don't think those weights are tied to the natural weight of a human body. What I mean is some weights are more optimal for certain fighters than other weights, you know this. Hell Migeul Cotto went up to 147 once he couldn't make 140, but he sure stayed at 140 as long as he could due to having more of an advantage there. Same goes for b hop he felt like he had more of an advantage at 160 and only way he did it as long as he did is thru crazy healthy lifestyle...Pwil used to cut down to 147, yet could easily have fought at 160-68 the entire time but that would somewhat negate his size advantages.

[Kev]

That is not what I meant at all, I don't think those weights are tied to the natural weight of a human body. What I mean is some weights are more optimal for certain fighters than other weights, you know this. Hell Migeul Cotto went up to 147 once he couldn't make 140, but he sure stayed at 140 as long as he could due to having more of an advantage there. Same goes for b hop he felt like he had more of an advantage at 160 and only way he did it as long as he did is thru crazy healthy lifestyle...Pwil used to cut down to 147, yet could easily have fought at 160-68 the entire time but that would somewhat negate his size advantages.

Yeah I see what you mean. I just don't get why people rain on catchweights so much as if once a fighter has moved from say 140 to 147, then it means he cannot function at any less than 147 effectively.

For Jean Pascal for example who was fighting at 168 not long ago it would probably be no struggle to get down to 172 or 173, and for Bute no problem to add 3 lbs, seeing as he has fought at that weight before himself, as has Zolt Erdei.

So I don't see any excuse for fighting guys like Jesse Brinkley and Brian Magee. Better opposition is available if he wants it.

I'm not criticising him though. If I was him I'd be taking the same fights too. Just stay busy, get some nice easy wins and some regular paychecks and wait for the Super Six tournament to resolve itself.

It's a sensible move and you can't blame him for it.

I'm just pointing out that if he wanted better opposition it is there if he was prepared to fight a little higher.

[J Griz 757]

Bute via annihilation.

Bute hasn' been close to tested since his first fight with Andrade.

Hopefully he will fight someone of his caliber after this fight.

[Nameless]

Magee got knocked out cold by Froch at his worst, why is this even allowed.

Ask Showtime but we're all bummed here in Quebec, believe me, we would have wished for much better but apparently it's a "wait in line" fight till the super 6 unravels, at least that's what the radio did suggest in a very diplomatic way here. The other option was the mandatory Paul Mendy but it's an even worst possibility and Interbox aren't interested one second in that.

[donnydarkoIRL]

RE; Bilbos questions regarding weight

In professional boxing fighters strive to compete at the lowest weight their body can reach whilst still retaining energy and strength

Were a man naturally ten stone to enter the ring with a professional fighter at that weight, he would be seriously undersized on fight night.

Each fighter has a unique physique and each fighter will have their own optimum weight. Sacrificing two or three pounds at the whom of an opponent is very serious.
These fighters are proffesionals and spend weeks scientifically adjusting their weight. Nobody should willingly sacrifice 2-3lbs to an opponent