Eddie Chambers v. David Haye

[Kev]

Eddie's chin is sturdy enough to take a few pops from haye, has decent enough defense to block a lot of em. No way would this be an easy fight for haye and it would actually be his best win at heavy if he pulled it off.

By a large margin imo. I think it would be the toughest fight of his career. Enzo was shit, Mormeck was finished by Bell, his heavyweight opp has been terrible.

Haye's resume is one of the poorest for any top level fighter imo. It's like Donaire's resume if take off Montiel and Darchinyan.

If Chambers has the self belief he takes Haye imo.

[Fenster]

Bilbo, all that tosh you've wrote may well be true (apart from the "Haye's power is overrated" bit, that is clearly ridiculous, have you ever seen him NOT hurt someone?) but however overrated and crap Haye is, you can't deny he is a P4P certainty using your methods.

He cleaned out the cruiserweight division knocking out all his closest rivals, then stepped up a division to become a two weight "world" champion and remains unbeaten. That means he has risen to the top end of 2000 fighters. A win against Wlad puts him where? No.1? Donaire's equal?

You must currently rank him well above Froch, right?

[Kev]

Bilbo, all that tosh you've wrote may well be true (apart from the "Haye's power is overrated" bit, that is clearly ridiculous, have you ever seen him NOT hurt someone?) but however overrated and crap Haye is, you can't deny he is a P4P certainty using your methods.

He cleaned out the cruiserweight division knocking out all his closest rivals, then stepped up a division to become a two weight "world" champion and remains unbeaten. That means he has risen to the top end of 2000 fighters. A win against Wlad puts him where? No.1? Donaire's equal?

You must currently rank him well above Froch, right?

Actually you are correct. In the past I have argued that acording to the criteria he is a p4p fighter. Go back a few months and you will see such threads.

However my personal assessment of him (which unlike you I do not let cloud my judgement when deciding p4p) is that his wins have been greatly over estimated.

Valuev was beaten 4 times prior to facing Haye, by Larry Donald, John Ruiz, Ruslan Chagaev and Evander Holyfield. He kept his belt because he was over 7ft tall, not because he beat those guys.

There's a whole queue of guys who have knocked out Enzo harder than Haye did, Bell demolished Mormeck, Tua demolished Ruiz., Causer demolished Barrett.

Haye hits hard, no question. But so does Miranda, Sam Peter, Chris Arreola, Artur Abraham etc. In the end though, when they came up against guys who weren't afraid and could fight, their power didn't mean a whole lot.

This is what I think will happen to Haye.

But, I don't let my personal assessment cloud my p4p rankings and don't disagree with you regarding potential p4p status. Critieria trumps personal opinion every time and my previous threads over the past year will confirm that.

[Kev]

Oh and yeah I wouldnt argue against him being rated above Froch.

[Fenster]

Great stuff!

Haye is toilet. Fact. However, he is also one of the very best boxers on earth. Fact.

A fighter that is overrated, basically crap, has a terrible resume and no skills to speak of is a bombproof 100% P4P certainty. Interesting.

[The Fightfan]

This sounds like a solid clash of styles. Naturally I would have to go with the boxer here. Eddie would outbox,and counter the hell out of Haye between those big looping shots. Haye would have to catch Eddie early and he has a shot otherwise after about five rounds it's easy pickings for Eddie.

[Kev]

Great stuff!

Haye is toilet. Fact. However, he is also one of the very best boxers on earth. Fact.

A fighter that is overrated, basically crap, has a terrible resume and no skills to speak of is a bombproof 100% P4P certainty. Interesting.

No you're twisting things here.

What I am saying is that when it comes to evaluating p4p, I don't allow my personal opinions on how someone might fair in hypothetical matchups skew an analysis of their acomplishments.

You asked me if I rate David Haye's wins personally and I told you, I think they are overatted. That is my personal opinion.

However, he was still the undisputed cruiserweight champion, and now a legitimate heavyweight belt holder making him a two weight world champ.

Any fighter who becomes undisputed in one weight class and then moves up and wins a belt in another weight class deserves to be considered when it comes to p4p rankings, do you disagree with this?

I didn't say he was in my own top ten p4p but I don't have a problem debating his merits.

Regarding Haye vs Carl Froch, if they both weighed the same I don't know who would win. To me it's not relavent. When assessing p4p I compare their respective acomplishments.

Froch to my mind has fought much the better opposition, but he has lost to Kessler, and won a controversial win over Dirrell. He looked brilliant against Abraham

Haye has not lost for several years and has pretty much dominated most of the people he has fought since moving up to heavyweight. He's also been an undisputed champion whilst Froch has not. Now he's a two weight world champ, which Froch is not.

On the other hand, the quality of his opposition is not as good as Froch's.

You could make a case either way as to which is rated higher p4p. I would probably have neither in my top 10 but Haye above Froch is fine by me.

The BBC have David Haye as number 1 British fighter with Froch at 2, Khan 3. I can certainly agree with that.

However they have Yuriorkis Gamboa at number 10 world p4p which is obviously ridiculous

[Rantcatrat]

Bilbo, all that tosh you've wrote may well be true (apart from the "Haye's power is overrated" bit, that is clearly ridiculous, have you ever seen him NOT hurt someone?) but however overrated and crap Haye is, you can't deny he is a P4P certainty using your methods.

He cleaned out the cruiserweight division knocking out all his closest rivals, then stepped up a division to become a two weight "world" champion and remains unbeaten. That means he has risen to the top end of 2000 fighters. A win against Wlad puts him where? No.1? Donaire's equal?

You must currently rank him well above Froch, right?

Fenster, a lot of times I agree with you about your p4p arguments, but I don't agree with you about Haye at all. I believe that Chambers would be the best win on Haye's record thus far in his career by far. You say he cleaned out the cruiserweight division, but the division at that time was horrible. What was his best win at cruiserweight? Mormeck? Enzo (hah!)? Fraggomeni? Honestly, Haye's biggest win in his whole career was over Valuev. Eddie's wins over Sam Peters, Calvin Brock, and Alex Dimitrenko are as good as Haye's.

Oh and Froch has a much better resume p4p than Haye. Froch's wins over Dirrell, Abraham and Pascal are better than the best Haye win.

When we are talking p4p, Adamek's resume is better. He was a champ at 175. He beat the best cruiserweight in the world in Cunningham at 200 - better than any of Haye's wins in his whole career. He then beat Arreola at heavyweight. I rank Arreola higher than Valuev, Harrison, and John Ruiz. Well, maybe not Valuev, but at least on par with Valuev.

[Fenster]

Bilbo, all that tosh you've wrote may well be true (apart from the "Haye's power is overrated" bit, that is clearly ridiculous, have you ever seen him NOT hurt someone?) but however overrated and crap Haye is, you can't deny he is a P4P certainty using your methods.

He cleaned out the cruiserweight division knocking out all his closest rivals, then stepped up a division to become a two weight "world" champion and remains unbeaten. That means he has risen to the top end of 2000 fighters. A win against Wlad puts him where? No.1? Donaire's equal?

You must currently rank him well above Froch, right?

Fenster, a lot of times I agree with you about your p4p arguments, but I don't agree with you about Haye at all. I believe that Chambers would be the best win on Haye's record thus far in his career by far. You say he cleaned out the cruiserweight division, but the division at that time was horrible. What was his best win at cruiserweight? Mormeck? Enzo (hah!)? Fraggomeni? Honestly, Haye's biggest win in his whole career was over Valuev. Eddie's wins over Sam Peters, Calvin Brock, and Alex Dimitrenko are as good as Haye's.

Oh and Froch has a much better resume p4p than Haye. Froch's wins over Dirrell, Abraham and Pascal are better than the best Haye win.

When we are talking p4p, Adamek's resume is better. He was a champ at 175. He beat the best cruiserweight in the world in Cunningham at 200 - better than any of Haye's wins in his whole career. He then beat Arreola at heavyweight. I rank Arreola higher than Valuev, Harrison, and John Ruiz. Well, maybe not Valuev, but at least on par with Valuev.

My post was specifically aimed at Bilbo.

I agree with most of what you've written. Don't agree Valuev is a better opponent than Mormeck, Enzo (ha!) or Fraggomeni though. Only his size stopped Haye from sparking him in a round. And don't agree Adamek's win over Cunningham is better than anything Haye did. What makes Cunningham better than the lineal champion Mormeck or even WBO champion Enzo? Remember Enzo hadn't been sparked by everyman and his dog when Haye fought him.

1. I don't think Haye is a P4P candidate.

2. Not only is Froch's resume light-years better than Haye's, I believe Froch would kill him if matched P4P, although Haye does have a punchers chance against anyone.