Is Muhammad Ali an American Hero?

[marbleheadmaui]

Question for the Americans.

It always puzzles me that a guy who chose a religion over fighting for his country , can be an American hero.
Some say it was against his NEW beliefs , many would find it hard not to think he was a coward.
I mean the guy chose the muslim faith which he wasnt even born into , then turned his back on his country.
The stuff of Hero's ?
No not for me , Joe Louis was a hero.
For me he will always be Cassius Clay.
Im interested in your views guys.

So a hero is one who goes off to fight in an immoral and phoney war on the whims of the government? The ones who refuse to toe the line or keep to the manufactured script are not? I disagree with that line of thinking. I admire Ali for refusing to go to war and think that was actually a very heroic gesture. It might have also been a selfish gesture on his part, but as a stand I think it was quite apt and it is hard to interpret it as not also being a gesture of principle.

As much as I loath organised religion, I do think that is something that boils down to personal choice. If Ali believed that was what he wanted to believe then so be it. I don't understand how being a Muslim could make him anti-American either.

I think there are grounds for dismissing Ali and his views, but the war and being a Muslim are things that I find hard to condemn as anti-American. You could argue that Daniel Elsberg was unpatriotic, but I look at it on the other side of the coin. Those with vested interests and extreme levels of power are quite often themselves far from patriotic or just.

Ali was just an individual finding his way through life. Sometimes he seemed extremely misguided, but in other respects he seemed like a man with his own evolving values. Obviously there were contradictions, but you find that with any evolving intelligent being.

I am not American though, so shall step aside from the soapbox.

Let's be really clear about one thing. Ali wasn't then a "Muslim" in the ordinary sense. He was a Black Muslim, aka the Nation of Islam. An American whacko sect formed in the 1930's by a slick huckster named Fard and then taken over by Elijah Muhammad, another huckster. These guys believe things like a scinetist named Yakub created white men as devils, that a large spaceship carrying God had been launched from Japan in the 1920's and that a fleet of UFO's used by God are always around. Not exactly mainsteam Islamic belief huh? These jokers slaughtered Malcolm X for apostasy as well. While Islam may or may not be anti-American (it is certainly opposed to religious freedom), the Black Muslims advocate Black Separatism among other things. That is clearly not an idea consistent with American ideals.

Now Ali has long since broken with them and become a Sufi I believe.

As for Daniel Ellsberg? I think he committed Treason. It may have been what his conscience required, but it was still Treason.

Still, he was a Muslim in the broad sense of the term and as you yourself point out, the freedom to practice whatever strand of religion you believe in is in itself a long enshrined American value. Admittedly, it sounds like a somewhat extreme set of values being enshrined, but I happen to view all religions as equally absurd in that regard. Seperatism is quite awful, but equally bad are Christians who venomously condemn gays or threaten to burn the Koran. I don't think Christians are particularly anti-American either though. Anti-Americanism is too broad a term and I don't think you can say people of any faith are either pro or anti a government system. Extremist elements are probably more inclined to that way of thinking though and to that extent can see how those ALi was associating with might be viewed as somewhat "anti American" or at least against elements of what the government was representing.

I certainly think Ali was quite racist and alluded to that earlier as one of the elements that puts me off him. I struggle to relate to a lot of his views regarding race and women, at least those views espoused quite openly whilst still active as a fighter. I don't really know for sure what he believes these days as it is rare that we hear anything of him. He is often at big events, but we see him carrying the Olympic torch and at charity events, we don't hear the man speak anymore.

Elberg is moving off of topic somewhat, but the point I am making is that it is an extremely general term to state something as anti-American. In the eyes of most on the left at least, Elsberg is regarded as a patriotic American. Not anti-American in the slightest, but you will get those on the right arguing quite the opposite. You have a similar argument going on with Bradley Manning today.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I think your view on Ali is well put and hard to argue with very much. As far as "Anti-American" goes, in my view it can be comprised of two things, being in opposition to clear American interests (but ONLY clear ones) or in opposition of basic (but only basic) traditional American values (pluralism, freedom of expression, freedom of religion etc.). It is NEVER in ANY nation's interest to lose a war. It just isn't. And both Ellsberg and Manning acted to make such an event more likely. Now to be fair, dissent, especially dissent in which the actor is willing to pay the price? Clearly in line with basic traditional American values.

To come back to Ali, I don't believe Ali acted in an anti-American matter as an individual. I believe the Nation of Islam did and does so on a routine basis. That he broke with them speaks well of him.

[Master]

Ali should be an all American hero he believed and he achieved just like the American dream.

[Gandalf]

Ali should be an all American hero he believed and he achieved just like the American dream.

In terms of boxing, he can be regarded as nothing less than a hero. He was phenomenal and to come back after that long layoff and stake his claim at the top was an exceptional achievement. A special fighter.

[Hornfinger]

Gonna get accused of trolling even though I'm not....

Can he really be an american hero? After all he did refuse to go and invade someone elses country and kill a load of innocent people. Usually it's the other weay round to be called a hero these days.....

And thats before we get sarted on the fact hes a muslim....