Would A Prime ODLH Have Beaten Manny Pacquiao ?

[generalbulldog]

As Teddy Atlas once said about Oscar De La Hoya, "He finds a way to screw up his big fights and lose." I have Pac beating him just on that. Against All Time Great fighters that were in their prime or still had something he finds a way to mess it up even with everything in his favor.

That's what history said. So a prime Oscar loses to prime Manny based on that.

[Master]

Maybe ODH could have won the fight but blow it away by running the last few rounds.

[Hulk]

Prime Oscar and Prime Mosley both whip Pacquaio. Both were far bigger men, with tremendous talent and power. Elite athletes.

[mafiajoey]

Oscar wins

[marbleheadmaui]

As Teddy Atlas once said about Oscar De La Hoya, "He finds a way to screw up his big fights and lose." I have Pac beating him just on that. Against All Time Great fighters that were in their prime or still had something he finds a way to mess it up even with everything in his favor.

That's what history said. So a prime Oscar loses to prime Manny based on that.

This really is food for thought. Oscar just couldn't seem to drop the hammer in his biggest fights could he? I mean I though he deserved no better than a draw with Sweet Pea and for whatever reason he didn't fight twelve rounds with Tito. Then again he finished strong with Ike.

At a minimum this makes me think Oscar has to just blow him away. If Manny can stay in the fight...

[generalbulldog]

As Teddy Atlas once said about Oscar De La Hoya, "He finds a way to screw up his big fights and lose." I have Pac beating him just on that. Against All Time Great fighters that were in their prime or still had something he finds a way to mess it up even with everything in his favor.

That's what history said. So a prime Oscar loses to prime Manny based on that.

This really is food for thought. Oscar just couldn't seem to drop the hammer in his biggest fights could he? I mean I though he deserved no better than a draw with Sweet Pea and for whatever reason he didn't fight twelve rounds with Tito. Then again he finished strong with Ike.

At a minimum this makes me think Oscar has to just blow him away. If Manny can stay in the fight...

I was thinking the same also. Can Oscar blow out Manny in a few rounds? History says no with Manny's heart and resiliency, unless someone wants to argue that Manny was prime when he got ko by bums in the late 90s as prime. History on the other hand has said that Oscar does not do well with ATG figthers in their prime or had something left. Tito, Hopkins, Floyd, Manny, Mosley, etc. Even the Sweetpea victory is highly disputed and Sweetpea was 33 and slipping. And while Ike was a very good fighter, I would be very hesitant to call him an all time great, at most an hall of famer. Even that fight was close as hell.

And as someone once said, "Which all time great fighter did Oscar beat in their prime or had something left?"

[Violent Demise]

As Teddy Atlas once said about Oscar De La Hoya, "He finds a way to screw up his big fights and lose." I have Pac beating him just on that. Against All Time Great fighters that were in their prime or still had something he finds a way to mess it up even with everything in his favor.

That's what history said. So a prime Oscar loses to prime Manny based on that.

This really is food for thought. Oscar just couldn't seem to drop the hammer in his biggest fights could he? I mean I though he deserved no better than a draw with Sweet Pea and for whatever reason he didn't fight twelve rounds with Tito. Then again he finished strong with Ike.

At a minimum this makes me think Oscar has to just blow him away. If Manny can stay in the fight...

I was thinking the same also. Can Oscar blow out Manny in a few rounds? History says no with Manny's heart and resiliency, unless someone wants to argue that Manny was prime when he got ko by bums in the late 90s as prime. History on the other hand has said that Oscar does not do well with ATG figthers in their prime or had something left. Tito, Hopkins, Floyd, Manny, Mosley, etc. Even the Sweetpea victory is highly disputed and Sweetpea was 33 and slipping. And while Ike was a very good fighter, I would be very hesitant to call him an all time great, at most an hall of famer. Even that fight was close as hell.

And as someone once said, "Which all time great fighter did Oscar beat in their prime or had something left?"

The fact that Oscar was robbed against Trinidad and Mosley shouldn't be held against him. Yes he made a mistake by giving up the last rounds against Trinidad. Who cares? A fight is judge on rounds won. Not a fighters bad game plan. Oscar deserved the win. And really why people even think the whitaker fight is disputed is beyond me. Despite the bullshit kd Oscar still won by 3 or 4 points. Whitaker defense for that fight was amazing. He had Oscar looking foolish at times. At the same time is offense was horrendus. Jab and a pitter pat punch was all it was. How did anybody think he was winning rounds like that? Or that, that deserve to win them.

If one is gonna asked who Oscar beat that was in his prime than one should ask who Pacquiao beat in his prime?

[generalbulldog]

As Teddy Atlas once said about Oscar De La Hoya, "He finds a way to screw up his big fights and lose." I have Pac beating him just on that. Against All Time Great fighters that were in their prime or still had something he finds a way to mess it up even with everything in his favor.

That's what history said. So a prime Oscar loses to prime Manny based on that.

This really is food for thought. Oscar just couldn't seem to drop the hammer in his biggest fights could he? I mean I though he deserved no better than a draw with Sweet Pea and for whatever reason he didn't fight twelve rounds with Tito. Then again he finished strong with Ike.

At a minimum this makes me think Oscar has to just blow him away. If Manny can stay in the fight...

I was thinking the same also. Can Oscar blow out Manny in a few rounds? History says no with Manny's heart and resiliency, unless someone wants to argue that Manny was prime when he got ko by bums in the late 90s as prime. History on the other hand has said that Oscar does not do well with ATG figthers in their prime or had something left. Tito, Hopkins, Floyd, Manny, Mosley, etc. Even the Sweetpea victory is highly disputed and Sweetpea was 33 and slipping. And while Ike was a very good fighter, I would be very hesitant to call him an all time great, at most an hall of famer. Even that fight was close as hell.

And as someone once said, "Which all time great fighter did Oscar beat in their prime or had something left?"

The fact that Oscar was robbed against Trinidad and Mosley shouldn't be held against him. Yes he made a mistake by giving up the last rounds against Trinidad. Who cares? A fight is judge on rounds won. Not a fighters bad game plan. Oscar deserved the win. And really why people even think the whitaker fight is disputed is beyond me. Despite the bullshit kd Oscar still won by 3 or 4 points. Whitaker defense for that fight was amazing. He had Oscar looking foolish at times. At the same time is offense was horrendus. Jab and a pitter pat punch was all it was. How did anybody think he was winning rounds like that? Or that, that deserve to win them.

If one is gonna asked who Oscar beat that was in his prime than one should ask who Pacquiao beat in his prime?

As you know the name of the game is hit and not get hit. Whitaker made Oscar miss a lot, and that's an understatement. Whitaker did enough to win with his offense imo. Whitaker's jab and pitter pat punch as you put up still racked up points in my book. As said, isn't that the name of the game? Hit and not get hit. He was always a master of that. Oscar on the other hand was flurrying to win the round when he heard the 10 second warning while looking horrendous the rest of many rounds. Now how is that winning?


And that's pretty much what a lot of the rounds look like against Whitaker, now how is that beating Whitaker by 3 or 4 points? Whitaker landed more and at a higher connect percentage, plus Oscar missing alot. That's pretty much a Whitaker victory in my book.

As for the Trinidad fight, it can be disputed no doubt. The Shane Mosley fight, the one in 2000 he clearly lost, even Oscar said so himself that he lost in some interview years ago. You can argue he deserves the 2nd against Mosley that fight is disputed by many fans and I gave the fight to him. But all I know on his official record is this. 0-1 Trinidad, 0-2 Mosley, 0-1 Hopkins, 0-1 Mayweather, 0-1 Pacquiao. He is 0-6 against all time great fighters at their peak or near their peak. Even if I give Oscar the Trinidad and 2nd Mosley fight he's still 2-4 against them. And he had almost every considerable advantage against guys like Hopkins, Mayweather, Pacquiao and the 1st Mosley fight but still lost, that's the reality. Those 4 fights outcome can't be disputed. The Trinidad and 2nd Mosley fight yes it can be argued, not the others.

[ICB]

As Teddy Atlas once said about Oscar De La Hoya, "He finds a way to screw up his big fights and lose." I have Pac beating him just on that. Against All Time Great fighters that were in their prime or still had something he finds a way to mess it up even with everything in his favor.

That's what history said. So a prime Oscar loses to prime Manny based on that.

This really is food for thought. Oscar just couldn't seem to drop the hammer in his biggest fights could he? I mean I though he deserved no better than a draw with Sweet Pea and for whatever reason he didn't fight twelve rounds with Tito. Then again he finished strong with Ike.

At a minimum this makes me think Oscar has to just blow him away. If Manny can stay in the fight...

I was thinking the same also. Can Oscar blow out Manny in a few rounds? History says no with Manny's heart and resiliency, unless someone wants to argue that Manny was prime when he got ko by bums in the late 90s as prime. History on the other hand has said that Oscar does not do well with ATG figthers in their prime or had something left. Tito, Hopkins, Floyd, Manny, Mosley, etc. Even the Sweetpea victory is highly disputed and Sweetpea was 33 and slipping. And while Ike was a very good fighter, I would be very hesitant to call him an all time great, at most an hall of famer. Even that fight was close as hell.

And as someone once said, "Which all time great fighter did Oscar beat in their prime or had something left?"

The fact that Oscar was robbed against Trinidad and Mosley shouldn't be held against him. Yes he made a mistake by giving up the last rounds against Trinidad. Who cares? A fight is judge on rounds won. Not a fighters bad game plan. Oscar deserved the win. And really why people even think the whitaker fight is disputed is beyond me. Despite the bullshit kd Oscar still won by 3 or 4 points. Whitaker defense for that fight was amazing. He had Oscar looking foolish at times. At the same time is offense was horrendus. Jab and a pitter pat punch was all it was. How did anybody think he was winning rounds like that? Or that, that deserve to win them.

If one is gonna asked who Oscar beat that was in his prime than one should ask who Pacquiao beat in his prime?

As you know the name of the game is hit and not get hit. Whitaker made Oscar miss a lot, and that's an understatement. Whitaker did enough to win with his offense imo. Whitaker's jab and pitter pat punch as you put up still racked up points in my book. As said, isn't that the name of the game? Hit and not get hit. He was always a master of that. Oscar on the other hand was flurrying to win the round when he heard the 10 second warning while looking horrendous the rest of many rounds. Now how is that winning?


And that's pretty much what a lot of the rounds look like against Whitaker, now how is that beating Whitaker by 3 or 4 points? Whitaker landed more and at a higher connect percentage, plus Oscar missing alot. That's pretty much a Whitaker victory in my book.

As for the Trinidad fight, it can be disputed no doubt. The Shane Mosley fight, the one in 2000 he clearly lost, even Oscar said so himself that he lost in some interview years ago. You can argue he deserves the 2nd against Mosley that fight is disputed by many fans and I gave the fight to him. But all I know on his official record is this. 0-1 Trinidad, 0-2 Mosley, 0-1 Hopkins, 0-1 Mayweather, 0-1 Pacquiao. He is 0-6 against all time great fighters at their peak or near their peak. Even if I give Oscar the Trinidad and 2nd Mosley fight he's still 2-4 against them. And he had almost every considerable advantage against guys like Hopkins, Mayweather, Pacquiao and the 1st Mosley fight but still lost, that's the reality. Those 4 fights outcome can't be disputed. The Trinidad and 2nd Mosley fight yes it can be argued, not the others.

How in the world did he have an advantage against Mayweather or Hopkins ? against Floyd Mayweather Jr he'd only fought 3 fights in 3 years and was only a part time boxer at that point.

Against Bernard Hopkins he was fighting at a weightclass, he wasn't comfortable at which showed against Felix Sturm. Which was probably one of his worst performances of his career.

Against Manny Pacquiao he fought at a weightclass, he hadn't fought at in almost 10 years.

The worst he could of done in the Trinidad fight was 6-6, and thats being generous to Felix Trinidad. In all honesty forgetting he run for the last 3 rounds, how in the world is it possible he lost 7 rounds on the judges scorecards ? thats ridiculous.

Against Shane Mosley in the 2nd fight, a majority think he won the fight. Infact i haven't come across anyone who thinks Shane Mosley won.

And actually he has two wins over ATG's JCC, Pernell Whitaker. Yes they both were past there prime.

But if your bringing up when ODLH was past his prime vs Mayweather, Pacquiao. Then ODLH's wins over those two should be relevant aswell.

[BIG H]

I had Oscar beating Whitaker, only be virtue of winning the last round. I think he beat Tito, lost by a point to Quartey, by 4 rounds to Mosley (I) but won the 2nd Mosely fight. Also lost to Sturm.

One of my all time favorite fighters - never ducked anybody!!

[ICB]

I had Oscar beating Whitaker, only be virtue of winning the last round. I think he beat Tito, lost by a point to Quartey, by 4 rounds to Mosley (I) but won the 2nd Mosely fight. Also lost to Sturm.

One of my all time favorite fighters - never ducked anybody!!

He ducked Vernon Forrest and Winky Wright

[Violent Demise]

As Teddy Atlas once said about Oscar De La Hoya, "He finds a way to screw up his big fights and lose." I have Pac beating him just on that. Against All Time Great fighters that were in their prime or still had something he finds a way to mess it up even with everything in his favor.

That's what history said. So a prime Oscar loses to prime Manny based on that.

This really is food for thought. Oscar just couldn't seem to drop the hammer in his biggest fights could he? I mean I though he deserved no better than a draw with Sweet Pea and for whatever reason he didn't fight twelve rounds with Tito. Then again he finished strong with Ike.

At a minimum this makes me think Oscar has to just blow him away. If Manny can stay in the fight...

I was thinking the same also. Can Oscar blow out Manny in a few rounds? History says no with Manny's heart and resiliency, unless someone wants to argue that Manny was prime when he got ko by bums in the late 90s as prime. History on the other hand has said that Oscar does not do well with ATG figthers in their prime or had something left. Tito, Hopkins, Floyd, Manny, Mosley, etc. Even the Sweetpea victory is highly disputed and Sweetpea was 33 and slipping. And while Ike was a very good fighter, I would be very hesitant to call him an all time great, at most an hall of famer. Even that fight was close as hell.

And as someone once said, "Which all time great fighter did Oscar beat in their prime or had something left?"

The fact that Oscar was robbed against Trinidad and Mosley shouldn't be held against him. Yes he made a mistake by giving up the last rounds against Trinidad. Who cares? A fight is judge on rounds won. Not a fighters bad game plan. Oscar deserved the win. And really why people even think the whitaker fight is disputed is beyond me. Despite the bullshit kd Oscar still won by 3 or 4 points. Whitaker defense for that fight was amazing. He had Oscar looking foolish at times. At the same time is offense was horrendus. Jab and a pitter pat punch was all it was. How did anybody think he was winning rounds like that? Or that, that deserve to win them.

If one is gonna asked who Oscar beat that was in his prime than one should ask who Pacquiao beat in his prime?

As you know the name of the game is hit and not get hit. Whitaker made Oscar miss a lot, and that's an understatement. Whitaker did enough to win with his offense imo. Whitaker's jab and pitter pat punch as you put up still racked up points in my book. As said, isn't that the name of the game? Hit and not get hit. He was always a master of that. Oscar on the other hand was flurrying to win the round when he heard the 10 second warning while looking horrendous the rest of many rounds. Now how is that winning?

And that's pretty much what a lot of the rounds look like against Whitaker, now how is that beating Whitaker by 3 or 4 points? Whitaker landed more and at a higher connect percentage, plus Oscar missing alot. That's pretty much a Whitaker victory in my book.

As for the Trinidad fight, it can be disputed no doubt. The Shane Mosley fight, the one in 2000 he clearly lost, even Oscar said so himself that he lost in some interview years ago. You can argue he deserves the 2nd against Mosley that fight is disputed by many fans and I gave the fight to him. But all I know on his official record is this. 0-1 Trinidad, 0-2 Mosley, 0-1 Hopkins, 0-1 Mayweather, 0-1 Pacquiao. He is 0-6 against all time great fighters at their peak or near their peak. Even if I give Oscar the Trinidad and 2nd Mosley fight he's still 2-4 against them. And he had almost every considerable advantage against guys like Hopkins, Mayweather, Pacquiao and the 1st Mosley fight but still lost, that's the reality. Those 4 fights outcome can't be disputed. The Trinidad and 2nd Mosley fight yes it can be argued, not the others.

It's part of the game. There's also something called effective punching. Whitaker landed more punches overall. But 70% of them were jabs. Most of them that weak, keep away from me jab. De La Hoya pressed the fight all night. He landed twice the power shots Whitaker did. There wasn't a great amount of noticeable shots landed that night. But damn near all that were, were landed by De La Hoya. Whitaker also spend a lot of the fight just clowning and hot dogging. Defense counts. Showboating doesn't. You knock Oscar for giving up the last rounds against Trinidad. Yet what did Whitaker do in round 12 against Oscar? Nothing. He posed. Stuck his tongue out. Showboated a little. But did no fighting. Shit goes both ways

You got Oscar going 0-6 against the ATG's. Officially you say. How the hell can that be? Officially he has a win against Whitaker. Why ain't you counting that one? He's clearly an ATG. As is Julio Cesar Chavez. Whitaker wasn't in his prime when he met De La Hoya. But don't tell he still didn't have something left

[Julius Rain]

Oscar is garbage, maybe the most overhype fighter of all time next to tyson.

I wish Koysta would of fought Oscar.

[generalbulldog]

As Teddy Atlas once said about Oscar De La Hoya, "He finds a way to screw up his big fights and lose." I have Pac beating him just on that. Against All Time Great fighters that were in their prime or still had something he finds a way to mess it up even with everything in his favor.

That's what history said. So a prime Oscar loses to prime Manny based on that.

This really is food for thought. Oscar just couldn't seem to drop the hammer in his biggest fights could he? I mean I though he deserved no better than a draw with Sweet Pea and for whatever reason he didn't fight twelve rounds with Tito. Then again he finished strong with Ike.

At a minimum this makes me think Oscar has to just blow him away. If Manny can stay in the fight...

I was thinking the same also. Can Oscar blow out Manny in a few rounds? History says no with Manny's heart and resiliency, unless someone wants to argue that Manny was prime when he got ko by bums in the late 90s as prime. History on the other hand has said that Oscar does not do well with ATG figthers in their prime or had something left. Tito, Hopkins, Floyd, Manny, Mosley, etc. Even the Sweetpea victory is highly disputed and Sweetpea was 33 and slipping. And while Ike was a very good fighter, I would be very hesitant to call him an all time great, at most an hall of famer. Even that fight was close as hell.

And as someone once said, "Which all time great fighter did Oscar beat in their prime or had something left?"

The fact that Oscar was robbed against Trinidad and Mosley shouldn't be held against him. Yes he made a mistake by giving up the last rounds against Trinidad. Who cares? A fight is judge on rounds won. Not a fighters bad game plan. Oscar deserved the win. And really why people even think the whitaker fight is disputed is beyond me. Despite the bullshit kd Oscar still won by 3 or 4 points. Whitaker defense for that fight was amazing. He had Oscar looking foolish at times. At the same time is offense was horrendus. Jab and a pitter pat punch was all it was. How did anybody think he was winning rounds like that? Or that, that deserve to win them.

If one is gonna asked who Oscar beat that was in his prime than one should ask who Pacquiao beat in his prime?

As you know the name of the game is hit and not get hit. Whitaker made Oscar miss a lot, and that's an understatement. Whitaker did enough to win with his offense imo. Whitaker's jab and pitter pat punch as you put up still racked up points in my book. As said, isn't that the name of the game? Hit and not get hit. He was always a master of that. Oscar on the other hand was flurrying to win the round when he heard the 10 second warning while looking horrendous the rest of many rounds. Now how is that winning?

And that's pretty much what a lot of the rounds look like against Whitaker, now how is that beating Whitaker by 3 or 4 points? Whitaker landed more and at a higher connect percentage, plus Oscar missing alot. That's pretty much a Whitaker victory in my book.

As for the Trinidad fight, it can be disputed no doubt. The Shane Mosley fight, the one in 2000 he clearly lost, even Oscar said so himself that he lost in some interview years ago. You can argue he deserves the 2nd against Mosley that fight is disputed by many fans and I gave the fight to him. But all I know on his official record is this. 0-1 Trinidad, 0-2 Mosley, 0-1 Hopkins, 0-1 Mayweather, 0-1 Pacquiao. He is 0-6 against all time great fighters at their peak or near their peak. Even if I give Oscar the Trinidad and 2nd Mosley fight he's still 2-4 against them. And he had almost every considerable advantage against guys like Hopkins, Mayweather, Pacquiao and the 1st Mosley fight but still lost, that's the reality. Those 4 fights outcome can't be disputed. The Trinidad and 2nd Mosley fight yes it can be argued, not the others.

It's part of the game. There's also something called effective punching. Whitaker landed more punches overall. But 70% of them were jabs. Most of them that weak, keep away from me jab. De La Hoya pressed the fight all night. He landed twice the power shots Whitaker did. There wasn't a great amount of noticeable shots landed that night. But damn near all that were, were landed by De La Hoya. Whitaker also spend a lot of the fight just clowning and hot dogging. Defense counts. Showboating doesn't. You knock Oscar for giving up the last rounds against Trinidad. Yet what did Whitaker do in round 12 against Oscar? Nothing. He posed. Stuck his tongue out. Showboated a little. But did no fighting. Shit goes both ways

You got Oscar going 0-6 against the ATG's. Officially you say. How the hell can that be? Officially he has a win against Whitaker. Why ain't you counting that one? He's clearly an ATG. As is Julio Cesar Chavez. Whitaker wasn't in his prime when he met De La Hoya. But don't tell he still didn't have something left

On the Whitaker fight, I guess we're going to disagree on that. All I saw was that Whitaker made him miss a lot and got his punches in, even if they were weak jabs as you say, Whitaker in total punches landed and connect percentage his was higher overall. Now Oscar landed more on power shots but they were still too far and in between for me to give the rounds to Oscar and I can't really justify giving rounds to Oscar when he heard the 10 second warning and decided to flurry and try to win the rounds like that.

As for Oscar's official record then if you add in the JCC and Whitaker fights to the other 6 fights it's still 2-6 against all time greats. He lost more than he won. Yes he's an all time great for his accomplishments overall in his career, but he's not up there with Mayweather and Pacquiao or even 80s legends like Leonard the Golden boy of boxing in his day. Oscar you can say is a bigger star and has a bigger bank account, but he's not up there with them in terms of legacy or accomplishment. Just my 2 cents.

[Manju]

But all I know on his official record is this. 0-1 Trinidad, 0-2 Mosley, 0-1 Hopkins, 0-1 Mayweather, 0-1 Pacquiao. He is 0-6 against all time great fighters at their peak or near their peak.

I guess ODLH rep hinges on how seriously one takes the official record. There's an argument to be made that Boxing is different. Because of its inherent subjectivity (along with corruption) offical scores mean less that they do in other sports. And close wins are not the same as decisive ones, since things could easily go the other way.

This analysis also excludes Sweat Pea and Chavez, presumably becase they were not in their prime, but then simultaneously includes PBF and PacMan, even though ODLH was not prime by then. Not to mention Hopkins size.

One thing I like about boxing is, more than any other sport, its not whether you win or lose but how you played the game.