Would A Prime ODLH Have Beaten Manny Pacquiao ?

[ICB]

As Teddy Atlas once said about Oscar De La Hoya, "He finds a way to screw up his big fights and lose." I have Pac beating him just on that. Against All Time Great fighters that were in their prime or still had something he finds a way to mess it up even with everything in his favor.

That's what history said. So a prime Oscar loses to prime Manny based on that.

This really is food for thought. Oscar just couldn't seem to drop the hammer in his biggest fights could he? I mean I though he deserved no better than a draw with Sweet Pea and for whatever reason he didn't fight twelve rounds with Tito. Then again he finished strong with Ike.

At a minimum this makes me think Oscar has to just blow him away. If Manny can stay in the fight...

I was thinking the same also. Can Oscar blow out Manny in a few rounds? History says no with Manny's heart and resiliency, unless someone wants to argue that Manny was prime when he got ko by bums in the late 90s as prime. History on the other hand has said that Oscar does not do well with ATG figthers in their prime or had something left. Tito, Hopkins, Floyd, Manny, Mosley, etc. Even the Sweetpea victory is highly disputed and Sweetpea was 33 and slipping. And while Ike was a very good fighter, I would be very hesitant to call him an all time great, at most an hall of famer. Even that fight was close as hell.

And as someone once said, "Which all time great fighter did Oscar beat in their prime or had something left?"

The fact that Oscar was robbed against Trinidad and Mosley shouldn't be held against him. Yes he made a mistake by giving up the last rounds against Trinidad. Who cares? A fight is judge on rounds won. Not a fighters bad game plan. Oscar deserved the win. And really why people even think the whitaker fight is disputed is beyond me. Despite the bullshit kd Oscar still won by 3 or 4 points. Whitaker defense for that fight was amazing. He had Oscar looking foolish at times. At the same time is offense was horrendus. Jab and a pitter pat punch was all it was. How did anybody think he was winning rounds like that? Or that, that deserve to win them.

If one is gonna asked who Oscar beat that was in his prime than one should ask who Pacquiao beat in his prime?

As you know the name of the game is hit and not get hit. Whitaker made Oscar miss a lot, and that's an understatement. Whitaker did enough to win with his offense imo. Whitaker's jab and pitter pat punch as you put up still racked up points in my book. As said, isn't that the name of the game? Hit and not get hit. He was always a master of that. Oscar on the other hand was flurrying to win the round when he heard the 10 second warning while looking horrendous the rest of many rounds. Now how is that winning?

And that's pretty much what a lot of the rounds look like against Whitaker, now how is that beating Whitaker by 3 or 4 points? Whitaker landed more and at a higher connect percentage, plus Oscar missing alot. That's pretty much a Whitaker victory in my book.

As for the Trinidad fight, it can be disputed no doubt. The Shane Mosley fight, the one in 2000 he clearly lost, even Oscar said so himself that he lost in some interview years ago. You can argue he deserves the 2nd against Mosley that fight is disputed by many fans and I gave the fight to him. But all I know on his official record is this. 0-1 Trinidad, 0-2 Mosley, 0-1 Hopkins, 0-1 Mayweather, 0-1 Pacquiao. He is 0-6 against all time great fighters at their peak or near their peak. Even if I give Oscar the Trinidad and 2nd Mosley fight he's still 2-4 against them. And he had almost every considerable advantage against guys like Hopkins, Mayweather, Pacquiao and the 1st Mosley fight but still lost, that's the reality. Those 4 fights outcome can't be disputed. The Trinidad and 2nd Mosley fight yes it can be argued, not the others.

It's part of the game. There's also something called effective punching. Whitaker landed more punches overall. But 70% of them were jabs. Most of them that weak, keep away from me jab. De La Hoya pressed the fight all night. He landed twice the power shots Whitaker did. There wasn't a great amount of noticeable shots landed that night. But damn near all that were, were landed by De La Hoya. Whitaker also spend a lot of the fight just clowning and hot dogging. Defense counts. Showboating doesn't. You knock Oscar for giving up the last rounds against Trinidad. Yet what did Whitaker do in round 12 against Oscar? Nothing. He posed. Stuck his tongue out. Showboated a little. But did no fighting. Shit goes both ways

You got Oscar going 0-6 against the ATG's. Officially you say. How the hell can that be? Officially he has a win against Whitaker. Why ain't you counting that one? He's clearly an ATG. As is Julio Cesar Chavez. Whitaker wasn't in his prime when he met De La Hoya. But don't tell he still didn't have something left

On the Whitaker fight, I guess we're going to disagree on that. All I saw was that Whitaker made him miss a lot and got his punches in, even if they were weak jabs as you say, Whitaker in total punches landed and connect percentage his was higher overall. Now Oscar landed more on power shots but they were still too far and in between for me to give the rounds to Oscar and I can't really justify giving rounds to Oscar when he heard the 10 second warning and decided to flurry and try to win the rounds like that.

As for Oscar's official record then if you add in the JCC and Whitaker fights to the other 6 fights it's still 2-6 against all time greats. He lost more than he won. Yes he's an all time great for his accomplishments overall in his career, but he's not up there with Mayweather and Pacquiao or even 80s legends like Leonard the Golden boy of boxing in his day. Oscar you can say is a bigger star and has a bigger bank account, but he's not up there with them in terms of legacy or accomplishment. Just my 2 cents.

ODLH has a better record than Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Please explain.

[

Jesse James Leija
Arturo Gatti
Pernell Whitaker
Julio Cesar Chavez x2
Miguel Angel Gonzalez
Jorge Paez
John John Molina
Rafael Ruelas
Genaro Hernandez
David Kamau
Ike Quartey
Oba Carr
Fernando Vargas
Yori Boy Campas
Ricardo Mayorga
Wilfredo Rivera
Hector Camacho

Deserved wins vs Trinidad, Mosley 2,

6 world titles in 6 weightclasses.

[generalbulldog]

As Teddy Atlas once said about Oscar De La Hoya, "He finds a way to screw up his big fights and lose." I have Pac beating him just on that. Against All Time Great fighters that were in their prime or still had something he finds a way to mess it up even with everything in his favor.

That's what history said. So a prime Oscar loses to prime Manny based on that.

This really is food for thought. Oscar just couldn't seem to drop the hammer in his biggest fights could he? I mean I though he deserved no better than a draw with Sweet Pea and for whatever reason he didn't fight twelve rounds with Tito. Then again he finished strong with Ike.

At a minimum this makes me think Oscar has to just blow him away. If Manny can stay in the fight...

I was thinking the same also. Can Oscar blow out Manny in a few rounds? History says no with Manny's heart and resiliency, unless someone wants to argue that Manny was prime when he got ko by bums in the late 90s as prime. History on the other hand has said that Oscar does not do well with ATG figthers in their prime or had something left. Tito, Hopkins, Floyd, Manny, Mosley, etc. Even the Sweetpea victory is highly disputed and Sweetpea was 33 and slipping. And while Ike was a very good fighter, I would be very hesitant to call him an all time great, at most an hall of famer. Even that fight was close as hell.

And as someone once said, "Which all time great fighter did Oscar beat in their prime or had something left?"

The fact that Oscar was robbed against Trinidad and Mosley shouldn't be held against him. Yes he made a mistake by giving up the last rounds against Trinidad. Who cares? A fight is judge on rounds won. Not a fighters bad game plan. Oscar deserved the win. And really why people even think the whitaker fight is disputed is beyond me. Despite the bullshit kd Oscar still won by 3 or 4 points. Whitaker defense for that fight was amazing. He had Oscar looking foolish at times. At the same time is offense was horrendus. Jab and a pitter pat punch was all it was. How did anybody think he was winning rounds like that? Or that, that deserve to win them.

If one is gonna asked who Oscar beat that was in his prime than one should ask who Pacquiao beat in his prime?

As you know the name of the game is hit and not get hit. Whitaker made Oscar miss a lot, and that's an understatement. Whitaker did enough to win with his offense imo. Whitaker's jab and pitter pat punch as you put up still racked up points in my book. As said, isn't that the name of the game? Hit and not get hit. He was always a master of that. Oscar on the other hand was flurrying to win the round when he heard the 10 second warning while looking horrendous the rest of many rounds. Now how is that winning?

And that's pretty much what a lot of the rounds look like against Whitaker, now how is that beating Whitaker by 3 or 4 points? Whitaker landed more and at a higher connect percentage, plus Oscar missing alot. That's pretty much a Whitaker victory in my book.

As for the Trinidad fight, it can be disputed no doubt. The Shane Mosley fight, the one in 2000 he clearly lost, even Oscar said so himself that he lost in some interview years ago. You can argue he deserves the 2nd against Mosley that fight is disputed by many fans and I gave the fight to him. But all I know on his official record is this. 0-1 Trinidad, 0-2 Mosley, 0-1 Hopkins, 0-1 Mayweather, 0-1 Pacquiao. He is 0-6 against all time great fighters at their peak or near their peak. Even if I give Oscar the Trinidad and 2nd Mosley fight he's still 2-4 against them. And he had almost every considerable advantage against guys like Hopkins, Mayweather, Pacquiao and the 1st Mosley fight but still lost, that's the reality. Those 4 fights outcome can't be disputed. The Trinidad and 2nd Mosley fight yes it can be argued, not the others.

It's part of the game. There's also something called effective punching. Whitaker landed more punches overall. But 70% of them were jabs. Most of them that weak, keep away from me jab. De La Hoya pressed the fight all night. He landed twice the power shots Whitaker did. There wasn't a great amount of noticeable shots landed that night. But damn near all that were, were landed by De La Hoya. Whitaker also spend a lot of the fight just clowning and hot dogging. Defense counts. Showboating doesn't. You knock Oscar for giving up the last rounds against Trinidad. Yet what did Whitaker do in round 12 against Oscar? Nothing. He posed. Stuck his tongue out. Showboated a little. But did no fighting. Shit goes both ways

You got Oscar going 0-6 against the ATG's. Officially you say. How the hell can that be? Officially he has a win against Whitaker. Why ain't you counting that one? He's clearly an ATG. As is Julio Cesar Chavez. Whitaker wasn't in his prime when he met De La Hoya. But don't tell he still didn't have something left

On the Whitaker fight, I guess we're going to disagree on that. All I saw was that Whitaker made him miss a lot and got his punches in, even if they were weak jabs as you say, Whitaker in total punches landed and connect percentage his was higher overall. Now Oscar landed more on power shots but they were still too far and in between for me to give the rounds to Oscar and I can't really justify giving rounds to Oscar when he heard the 10 second warning and decided to flurry and try to win the rounds like that.

As for Oscar's official record then if you add in the JCC and Whitaker fights to the other 6 fights it's still 2-6 against all time greats. He lost more than he won. Yes he's an all time great for his accomplishments overall in his career, but he's not up there with Mayweather and Pacquiao or even 80s legends like Leonard the Golden boy of boxing in his day. Oscar you can say is a bigger star and has a bigger bank account, but he's not up there with them in terms of legacy or accomplishment. Just my 2 cents.

ODLH has a better record than Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Please explain.

[

Jesse James Leija
Arturo Gatti
Pernell Whitaker
Julio Cesar Chavez x2
Miguel Angel Gonzalez
Jorge Paez
John John Molina
Rafael Ruelas
Genaro Hernandez
David Kamau
Ike Quartey
Oba Carr
Fernando Vargas
Yori Boy Campas
Ricardo Mayorga
Wilfredo Rivera
Hector Camacho

Deserved wins vs Trinidad, Mosley 2,

6 world titles in 6 weightclasses.

Floyd Mayweather

Genaro Hernandez (and at his natural weight class)
Jose Luis Castillo 2x
Diego Corrales (undefeated, in his prime and top 5 p4p at the time)
Ricky Hatton (undefeated, top 10 p4p)
Oscar himself (at a weight that Oscar was comfortable in)
Sugar Shane Mosley (no. 1 welter at the time and was top 5 p4p)
JMM (after almost a 2 year absence, returned and dominated him who was top 2 p4p)
Zab Judah
Angel Manfreddy
Arturo Gatti
Carlos Hernandez
Jesus Chavez
Philip Ndou

5 world titles in 5 weight classes also 3 time lineal champion in 3 weight classes.

BTW I think we should stick to the official record, not what you think if Oscar won this or that fight. You say he deserve the 2nd Mosley fight and Trinidad. If so a lot of people thought Quartey and Whitaker won in those fights, not to mention the Sturm fight. But I'm just going by official record.

[ICB]

As Teddy Atlas once said about Oscar De La Hoya, "He finds a way to screw up his big fights and lose." I have Pac beating him just on that. Against All Time Great fighters that were in their prime or still had something he finds a way to mess it up even with everything in his favor.

That's what history said. So a prime Oscar loses to prime Manny based on that.

This really is food for thought. Oscar just couldn't seem to drop the hammer in his biggest fights could he? I mean I though he deserved no better than a draw with Sweet Pea and for whatever reason he didn't fight twelve rounds with Tito. Then again he finished strong with Ike.

At a minimum this makes me think Oscar has to just blow him away. If Manny can stay in the fight...

I was thinking the same also. Can Oscar blow out Manny in a few rounds? History says no with Manny's heart and resiliency, unless someone wants to argue that Manny was prime when he got ko by bums in the late 90s as prime. History on the other hand has said that Oscar does not do well with ATG figthers in their prime or had something left. Tito, Hopkins, Floyd, Manny, Mosley, etc. Even the Sweetpea victory is highly disputed and Sweetpea was 33 and slipping. And while Ike was a very good fighter, I would be very hesitant to call him an all time great, at most an hall of famer. Even that fight was close as hell.

And as someone once said, "Which all time great fighter did Oscar beat in their prime or had something left?"

The fact that Oscar was robbed against Trinidad and Mosley shouldn't be held against him. Yes he made a mistake by giving up the last rounds against Trinidad. Who cares? A fight is judge on rounds won. Not a fighters bad game plan. Oscar deserved the win. And really why people even think the whitaker fight is disputed is beyond me. Despite the bullshit kd Oscar still won by 3 or 4 points. Whitaker defense for that fight was amazing. He had Oscar looking foolish at times. At the same time is offense was horrendus. Jab and a pitter pat punch was all it was. How did anybody think he was winning rounds like that? Or that, that deserve to win them.

If one is gonna asked who Oscar beat that was in his prime than one should ask who Pacquiao beat in his prime?

As you know the name of the game is hit and not get hit. Whitaker made Oscar miss a lot, and that's an understatement. Whitaker did enough to win with his offense imo. Whitaker's jab and pitter pat punch as you put up still racked up points in my book. As said, isn't that the name of the game? Hit and not get hit. He was always a master of that. Oscar on the other hand was flurrying to win the round when he heard the 10 second warning while looking horrendous the rest of many rounds. Now how is that winning?

And that's pretty much what a lot of the rounds look like against Whitaker, now how is that beating Whitaker by 3 or 4 points? Whitaker landed more and at a higher connect percentage, plus Oscar missing alot. That's pretty much a Whitaker victory in my book.

As for the Trinidad fight, it can be disputed no doubt. The Shane Mosley fight, the one in 2000 he clearly lost, even Oscar said so himself that he lost in some interview years ago. You can argue he deserves the 2nd against Mosley that fight is disputed by many fans and I gave the fight to him. But all I know on his official record is this. 0-1 Trinidad, 0-2 Mosley, 0-1 Hopkins, 0-1 Mayweather, 0-1 Pacquiao. He is 0-6 against all time great fighters at their peak or near their peak. Even if I give Oscar the Trinidad and 2nd Mosley fight he's still 2-4 against them. And he had almost every considerable advantage against guys like Hopkins, Mayweather, Pacquiao and the 1st Mosley fight but still lost, that's the reality. Those 4 fights outcome can't be disputed. The Trinidad and 2nd Mosley fight yes it can be argued, not the others.

It's part of the game. There's also something called effective punching. Whitaker landed more punches overall. But 70% of them were jabs. Most of them that weak, keep away from me jab. De La Hoya pressed the fight all night. He landed twice the power shots Whitaker did. There wasn't a great amount of noticeable shots landed that night. But damn near all that were, were landed by De La Hoya. Whitaker also spend a lot of the fight just clowning and hot dogging. Defense counts. Showboating doesn't. You knock Oscar for giving up the last rounds against Trinidad. Yet what did Whitaker do in round 12 against Oscar? Nothing. He posed. Stuck his tongue out. Showboated a little. But did no fighting. Shit goes both ways

You got Oscar going 0-6 against the ATG's. Officially you say. How the hell can that be? Officially he has a win against Whitaker. Why ain't you counting that one? He's clearly an ATG. As is Julio Cesar Chavez. Whitaker wasn't in his prime when he met De La Hoya. But don't tell he still didn't have something left

On the Whitaker fight, I guess we're going to disagree on that. All I saw was that Whitaker made him miss a lot and got his punches in, even if they were weak jabs as you say, Whitaker in total punches landed and connect percentage his was higher overall. Now Oscar landed more on power shots but they were still too far and in between for me to give the rounds to Oscar and I can't really justify giving rounds to Oscar when he heard the 10 second warning and decided to flurry and try to win the rounds like that.

As for Oscar's official record then if you add in the JCC and Whitaker fights to the other 6 fights it's still 2-6 against all time greats. He lost more than he won. Yes he's an all time great for his accomplishments overall in his career, but he's not up there with Mayweather and Pacquiao or even 80s legends like Leonard the Golden boy of boxing in his day. Oscar you can say is a bigger star and has a bigger bank account, but he's not up there with them in terms of legacy or accomplishment. Just my 2 cents.

ODLH has a better record than Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Please explain.

[

Jesse James Leija
Arturo Gatti
Pernell Whitaker
Julio Cesar Chavez x2
Miguel Angel Gonzalez
Jorge Paez
John John Molina
Rafael Ruelas
Genaro Hernandez
David Kamau
Ike Quartey
Oba Carr
Fernando Vargas
Yori Boy Campas
Ricardo Mayorga
Wilfredo Rivera
Hector Camacho

Deserved wins vs Trinidad, Mosley 2,

6 world titles in 6 weightclasses.

Floyd Mayweather

Genaro Hernandez (and at his natural weight class)
Jose Luis Castillo 2x
Diego Corrales (undefeated, in his prime and top 5 p4p at the time)
Ricky Hatton (undefeated, top 10 p4p)
Oscar himself (at a weight that Oscar was comfortable in)
Sugar Shane Mosley (no. 1 welter at the time and was top 5 p4p)
JMM (after almost a 2 year absence, returned and dominated him who was top 2 p4p)
Zab Judah
Angel Manfreddy
Arturo Gatti
Carlos Hernandez
Jesus Chavez
Philip Ndou

5 world titles in 5 weight classes also 3 time lineal champion in 3 weight classes.

BTW I think we should stick to the official record, not what you think if Oscar won this or that fight. You say he deserve the 2nd Mosley fight and Trinidad. If so a lot of people thought Quartey and Whitaker won in those fights, not to mention the Sturm fight. But I'm just going by official record.

How is that better than ODLH's record ? ODLH beat better versions of Hernandez, Gatti. And also fought a prime Shane Mosley not the version who is gassed after 2 rounds, and can't beat Sergio Mora convincingly.

JMM was considered a warm up fight for Floyd Mayweather Jr, everyone knows JMM does not belong at Welterweight and had to move 2 weightclasses. And was way out of his depth and looked fleshy around the midsection. A total mismatch which should of never happened really.

Chavez, Manfredy, Hernandez, were all solid contenders, but don't really compare to guys like Camacho, Vargas, Quartey.

Phillip N'Dou was average, Zab Judah was coming off a loss to Carlos Baldomir. And outside of the one win vs Cory Spinks, lost to every elite Welterweight.

Ricky Hatton was at his best at 140 not 147, he would of beat him at any weight. But Manny Pacquiao done it in much better fashion at Ricky Hatton's weightclass, a good win but it would of been more impressive at 140.

ODLH was a part time fighter at the point, he only fought 3 times in 3 years, and still gave Floyd Mayweather Jr at competitive fight. Although he gassed in the later rounds, a good win but it would be a bit different if were talking about the late 90s ODLH.

No debate with guys like Corrales, Castillo, were rated high. And were considered top fighters when Floyd Mayweather Jr beat them.

As for your last comment, there's a difference between winning razor thin close decisions aka Whitaker, Quartey. Than getting robbed and outlanding your opponent 2 to 1 aka Mosley 2, Trinidad.

Total Punches Trinidad De La Hoya Landed 116 263
Power Punches Trinidad De La Hoya Landed 124 120


Total Punches Mosley DeLaHoya Landed 127 221 Thrown 496 616 Pct. 26% 36%
Power Punches Mosley DeLaHoya Landed 94 115 Thrown 228 320 Pct. 41% 36%

[Violent Demise]

As for your last comment, there's a difference between winning razor thin close decisions aka Whitaker, Quartey. Than getting robbed and outlanding your opponent 2 to 1 aka Mosley 2, Trinidad.

Total Punches Trinidad De La Hoya Landed 116 263
Power Punches Trinidad De La Hoya Landed 124 120

Total Punches Mosley DeLaHoya Landed 127 221 Thrown 496 616 Pct. 26% 36%
Power Punches Mosley DeLaHoya Landed 94 115 Thrown 228 320 Pct. 41% 36%

Excellent point in which many don't know the difference.

[JazMerkin]

How is that better than ODLH's record ? ODLH beat better versions of Hernandez, Gatti. And also fought a prime Shane Mosley not the version who is gassed after 2 rounds, and can't beat Sergio Mora convincingly.

JMM was considered a warm up fight for Floyd Mayweather Jr, everyone knows JMM does not belong at Welterweight and had to move 2 weightclasses. And was way out of his depth and looked fleshy around the midsection. A total mismatch which should of never happened really.

Chavez, Manfredy, Hernandez, were all solid contenders, but don't really compare to guys like Camacho, Vargas, Quartey.

Phillip N'Dou was average, Zab Judah was coming off a loss to Carlos Baldomir. And outside of the one win vs Cory Spinks, lost to every elite Welterweight.

Ricky Hatton was at his best at 140 not 147, he would of beat him at any weight. But Manny Pacquiao done it in much better fashion at Ricky Hatton's weightclass, a good win but it would of been more impressive at 140.

ODLH was a part time fighter at the point, he only fought 3 times in 3 years, and still gave Floyd Mayweather Jr at competitive fight. Although he gassed in the later rounds, a good win but it would be a bit different if were talking about the late 90s ODLH.

No debate with guys like Corrales, Castillo, were rated high. And were considered top fighters when Floyd Mayweather Jr beat them.

As for your last comment, there's a difference between winning razor thin close decisions aka Whitaker, Quartey. Than getting robbed and outlanding your opponent 2 to 1 aka Mosley 2, Trinidad.

Total Punches Trinidad De La Hoya Landed 116 263
Power Punches Trinidad De La Hoya Landed 124 120


Total Punches Mosley DeLaHoya Landed 127 221 Thrown 496 616 Pct. 26% 36%
Power Punches Mosley DeLaHoya Landed 94 115 Thrown 228 320 Pct. 41% 36%

Sorry, Ice I'm totally with GB here. You use the natural weight argument against PBF's win at Hatton then totally disregard it saying ODLH beat a better version of Genaro Hernandez & Gatti, who were both well out of their natural weight far more obviously than Hatton.

You say ODLH was a part-time fighter, but PBF had fought only 5 times in the preceding 3 years. He was also outweighed by at least 15lbs probably more.

You criticize some of the opponents that GB has chosen, but you set the bar low by putting in guys like Oba Carr & David Kamau. Don't give me that solid contenders, they were horribly found out against anyone half decent. Hell, if you include them then why not Baldomir, Corley or Sharmba Mitchell.

Last point, fights aren't won on punch stats, they're won on rounds won. I thought Oscar's robbery defeat to Trinidad was more than evened out by his win against Sturm & I've long thought that the HBO commentators played up the ODLH-Mosley robbery angle. I thought Mosley did enough over the 2nd half of the fight to take it & actually you'll find most at ringside thought the same if you look into it. I can see Oscar winning, but not a robbery imo.

[ICB]

How is that better than ODLH's record ? ODLH beat better versions of Hernandez, Gatti. And also fought a prime Shane Mosley not the version who is gassed after 2 rounds, and can't beat Sergio Mora convincingly.

JMM was considered a warm up fight for Floyd Mayweather Jr, everyone knows JMM does not belong at Welterweight and had to move 2 weightclasses. And was way out of his depth and looked fleshy around the midsection. A total mismatch which should of never happened really.

Chavez, Manfredy, Hernandez, were all solid contenders, but don't really compare to guys like Camacho, Vargas, Quartey.

Phillip N'Dou was average, Zab Judah was coming off a loss to Carlos Baldomir. And outside of the one win vs Cory Spinks, lost to every elite Welterweight.

Ricky Hatton was at his best at 140 not 147, he would of beat him at any weight. But Manny Pacquiao done it in much better fashion at Ricky Hatton's weightclass, a good win but it would of been more impressive at 140.

ODLH was a part time fighter at the point, he only fought 3 times in 3 years, and still gave Floyd Mayweather Jr at competitive fight. Although he gassed in the later rounds, a good win but it would be a bit different if were talking about the late 90s ODLH.

No debate with guys like Corrales, Castillo, were rated high. And were considered top fighters when Floyd Mayweather Jr beat them.

As for your last comment, there's a difference between winning razor thin close decisions aka Whitaker, Quartey. Than getting robbed and outlanding your opponent 2 to 1 aka Mosley 2, Trinidad.

Total Punches Trinidad De La Hoya Landed 116 263
Power Punches Trinidad De La Hoya Landed 124 120


Total Punches Mosley DeLaHoya Landed 127 221 Thrown 496 616 Pct. 26% 36%
Power Punches Mosley DeLaHoya Landed 94 115 Thrown 228 320 Pct. 41% 36%

Sorry, Ice I'm totally with GB here. You use the natural weight argument against PBF's win at Hatton then totally disregard it saying ODLH beat a better version of Genaro Hernandez & Gatti, who were both well out of their natural weight far more obviously than Hatton.

You say ODLH was a part-time fighter, but PBF had fought only 5 times in the preceding 3 years. He was also outweighed by at least 15lbs probably more.

You criticize some of the opponents that GB has chosen, but you set the bar low by putting in guys like Oba Carr & David Kamau. Don't give me that solid contenders, they were horribly found out against anyone half decent. Hell, if you include them then why not Baldomir, Corley or Sharmba Mitchell.

Last point, fights aren't won on punch stats, they're won on rounds won. I thought Oscar's robbery defeat to Trinidad was more than evened out by his win against Sturm & I've long thought that the HBO commentators played up the ODLH-Mosley robbery angle. I thought Mosley did enough over the 2nd half of the fight to take it & actually you'll find most at ringside thought the same if you look into it. I can see Oscar winning, but not a robbery imo.

I'll just give some quick answers because im busy.

Genaro Hernandez was still fresher when he fought ODLH, so was Arturo Gatti.

ODLH was 2-2 when he fought Floyd Mayweather Jr, thats totally different circumstances to Floyd Mayweather Jr. Plus as i said 4 fights in 4 years its obvious he was a part time fighter at that point.

I never said there bad fighters i just said there nothing special, and i never said fighters like Carr, Kamau, were special. I just think overall ODLH has the better record.

I agree they don't tell the whole story in some cases, but in this case they do. ODLH dominated a majority of the rounds in both fights. Yes in both fights he allowed the fights to get closer because he lost the later rounds.

But mathematically how is it even possible either man got the win ? yes they may of not been outright robberies. But its robbery due to the fact that the worse ODLH could of done was a draw, and you would have to be being very generous to both fighters. Because there's no way either of them won 7 rounds.

[Violent Demise]

Sorry, Ice I'm totally with GB here. You use the natural weight argument against PBF's win at Hatton then totally disregard it saying ODLH beat a better version of Genaro Hernandez & Gatti, who were both well out of their natural weight far more obviously than Hatton.

You say ODLH was a part-time fighter, but PBF had fought only 5 times in the preceding 3 years. He was also outweighed by at least 15lbs probably more.

You criticize some of the opponents that GB has chosen, but you set the bar low by putting in guys like Oba Carr & David Kamau. Don't give me that solid contenders, they were horribly found out against anyone half decent. Hell, if you include them then why not Baldomir, Corley or Sharmba Mitchell.

Last point, fights aren't won on punch stats, they're won on rounds won. I thought Oscar's robbery defeat to Trinidad was more than evened out by his win against Sturm & I've long thought that the HBO commentators played up the ODLH-Mosley robbery angle. I thought Mosley did enough over the 2nd half of the fight to take it & actually you'll find most at ringside thought the same if you look into it. I can see Oscar winning, but not a robbery imo.

Hernandez fought damn near his whole career at 130. He moved up to 135 to fight Oscar. He was not well out his natural weight

And in his prime Oba Carr only lost to Oscar De La Hoya, Felix Trinidad and Ike Quartey. Them were more than half decent. Carr was a very good fighter. By the time he lost to Pineda he was already done

[JazMerkin]

Sorry, Ice I'm totally with GB here. You use the natural weight argument against PBF's win at Hatton then totally disregard it saying ODLH beat a better version of Genaro Hernandez & Gatti, who were both well out of their natural weight far more obviously than Hatton.

You say ODLH was a part-time fighter, but PBF had fought only 5 times in the preceding 3 years. He was also outweighed by at least 15lbs probably more.

You criticize some of the opponents that GB has chosen, but you set the bar low by putting in guys like Oba Carr & David Kamau. Don't give me that solid contenders, they were horribly found out against anyone half decent. Hell, if you include them then why not Baldomir, Corley or Sharmba Mitchell.

Last point, fights aren't won on punch stats, they're won on rounds won. I thought Oscar's robbery defeat to Trinidad was more than evened out by his win against Sturm & I've long thought that the HBO commentators played up the ODLH-Mosley robbery angle. I thought Mosley did enough over the 2nd half of the fight to take it & actually you'll find most at ringside thought the same if you look into it. I can see Oscar winning, but not a robbery imo.

Hernandez fought damn near his whole career at 130. He moved up to 135 to fight Oscar. He was not well out his natural weight

And in his prime Oba Carr only lost to Oscar De La Hoya, Felix Trinidad and Ike Quartey. Them were more than half decent. Carr was a very good fighter. By the time he lost to Pineda he was already done

My point was that he was no more 'out of his weight' than Hatton was at 147. I disagree on Oba Carr, he lost to those guys but an old Frankie Randall aside who did he ever beat? No disgrace in losing to those guys, but he never looked above domestic level for me.

I'll just give some quick answers because im busy.

Genaro Hernandez was still fresher when he fought ODLH, so was Arturo Gatti.

ODLH was 2-2 when he fought Floyd Mayweather Jr, thats totally different circumstances to Floyd Mayweather Jr. Plus as i said 4 fights in 4 years its obvious he was a part time fighter at that point.

I never said there bad fighters i just said there nothing special, and i never said fighters like Carr, Kamau, were special. I just think overall ODLH has the better record.

I agree they don't tell the whole story in some cases, but in this case they do. ODLH dominated a majority of the rounds in both fights. Yes in both fights he allowed the fights to get closer because he lost the later rounds.

But mathematically how is it even possible either man got the win ? yes they may of not been outright robberies. But its robbery due to the fact that the worse ODLH could of done was a draw, and you would have to be being very generous to both fighters. Because there's no way either of them won 7 rounds.

To Ice's point, you can't justify Pacquiao's win over Hatton as better than PBF's because it was at 140 & THEN say that ODLH's wins over Genaro & Gatti were better because they were fresher. So because Oscar was 2-2, that somehow meant he was shot. As you pointed out defending him, one of those was against a bigger B-Hop & the other a 'robbery' against Shane Mosley. All I'm saying is as inactive as he'd been inthe previous 3 years, PBF had only been marginally more active. He also heavily outweighed him.

It's cool that you think Oscar has the better record bro, it's just others like me & GB think Floyd has the better record. Your post gets a little bit contradictory in the last paragraph, but I'll say this. The majority of those ringside for Mosley-Oscar II had Shane winning. Those watching on tv had Oscar winning. I personally thought when I watched it that Shane won 7-5, but wouldn't have argued either way. I can't remember my scorecard, but when I have time I'll rewatch & repost what I come up with. I agree there was no way you could have Trinidad winning the fight imo, but any fight where the scorecards are at all close is subjective, just because you see it one way doesn't mean that's how everyone sees it.

[IronDanLaw]

Yes, but Manny would have had a very good chance, only because even in his prime De La Hoya did not fight for 3 minutes every round.