Violentdemise wrote

I agree that to be champion you have to the actual champion. That should be the criteria use to judge. Sadly for us that's no longer the case. And the amount of titles a fighter won will carry weight. Either way the fighters De La Hoya fought were pretty much all the top fighters of his era. He ducked nobody. I agree Artagon beat a lot of ranked fighters. But he lost and struggled with fighters he really shouldn't of lost or struggled with. He was clearly light years better than both Mario Trigo and John Davis. Yet both gave him problems. I see your point regarding Canizales. He kind of is a product of the splintered titles. But at the same time, where you think Ramos deserves credit for being the man, don't you think he's hurt by the fact he wasn't the man for very long and that his career was pretty much over at 24?

Another good post. With a guy like Aragon (and you make good points) you have to ask how many belts he'd have won had there been four available at 135, 140 and 147 in his time instead of only two total. Or to say the other way, how many would Oscar or Canzales have if there were one belt for a limited number of divisions. No way to know of course, but one simply cannot equate being one of four strapholders in 17 divisions and being the undisputed man in one of eight as both being "champions."

Ramos really is a toughie. It doesn't bother me at all he was done at 24. So was Benitez and heck Sal Sanchez and Masao Obha and Stanley Ketchell and Pancho Villa were dead! The question is what did they accomplish, isn't it? Mando was so inconsistent and that makes him tough to grade. Me? I put great weight, maybe too much, on being a THE MAN champion. But I figure that's the point of the sport right? To be king of the hill?

One other thing, please understand that I am not trying to denigrate guys like Oscar or Canzales. It is a given that the first 15 or so here are at least excellent fighters and many of those deserve to be called great. We're just trying to do the impossible and rank them in that context, right?